Agressive Panhandling

[Cranky CJ]

The store owns the parking lot, I would make this their problem by going back in and making sure they had to deal with it. Complain very loud to the store manager and he/she will have the cops out there real quick as the manager doesn't want to lose customers from panhandlers. I have no interest in getting into a legal scuff with some panhandler, nor do I want to shop where I'm harassed by panhandlers.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by jad0110: For those of us who carry a gun, when we choose to do so we give up some of our freedom in being able to knock the chocolate out of such a scumbag.

One does not have such "freedom" whether or not one carries a gun.

Posted by MachIVshooter:I would issue and ultimatum along the lines of "you're gonna move one way or the other". Don't heed my warning, you get what's coming. No, I'm not going to threaten him with a weapon unless he produces one of his own. But forcibly remove him from my path, yes

Three possible outcomes:

1. He complies.
2. He does not comply, and you end up facing criminal charges.
3. He defends himself, and you end up dead or injured.

Not a prudent strategy. Start and finish with ADEE, and let someone else enforce your rights.

 

[Averageman]

HSO,.."Some of you folks seem to want to escalate the situation to violence when it isn't needed. I don't know what you want to prove to yourself or to others, but what you are proving is that you're not using your heads to deal with the problem that is simply handled. "
and the O.P.
According to the PIO for CSPD (Barbara Miller) these aggressive panhandlers block you from getting in your car and demand money. The example she gave was, you walk out of Wal Mart, the panhandler is leaning against your car door and tells you “If you don’t give me money I won’t let you in your car”.

I'm not quite sure that isn't a threat.
You are being denied use/acess to your property unless you pay the "Panhandler" some cash. I'm not an Attorney or a Law Enforcement Officer; but this seems like a shakedown that is walking the fine line of a threat.
If I leave, I leave my property to the mercy of this guy, so going back inside the store with my rightous indignation is going to probobly cost me a paint job that the store owner will say isn't his responcability.
Pulling my concealed pistol and brandishing or threatening is going to make for a long weekend in the local jail and probobly a felony charge.
Applying my knuckles to his snot box might get me the same or worse. Imagine beating the snot out of this guy only to stand up and find his used needle sticking out of your thigh.
I still believe screaming like a whole Girl Scout Troop will likely work, if not spray that fellow down with pepper spray until he is as spicey as a 3 for a dollar taco.

 

[Derry 1946]

It's one thing to postulate heroics when you're the fit young guy -- leap over the car and enter through the sun roof, then execute a Rockford turn, or whatever -- but it's another thing if the car-owner is a pregnant lady or a mom with toddlers in tow. Fall back, notify management, and call 911.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

FWIW this is apparently occurring in an area of Colorado Springs between 21st street and Manitou Springs which seems to be a jursdictional muddle where no one is quite sure who exactly has jurisdiction.

Supposedly this is why the issue hasn't been directly addressed.

As for Acaia park the I've never had a problem down there.

 

[ThorinNNY]

New York is one those sissy states with their assinine "duty to retreat" laws.
In Bedlam on the Hudson, they successfully prosecuted a man who was able to turn his attacker`s knife against his attacker,killing him in the process.
Personally, I think in a state where the lunatics weren`t running the asylum, he would probably get a medal.
But that`s the VAMPIRE state for you!

 

[MachIVshooter]

Some of you folks seem to want to escalate the situation to violence when it isn't needed. I don't know what you want to prove to yourself or to others, but what you are proving is that you're not using your heads to deal with the problem that is simply handled

It's not a matter of wanting to escalate to violence; It's that I'm sick to death of seeing criminals so emboldened by the timorous behavior of most people, and I'm simply unwilling to lay down and take it.

Three possible outcomes:

He complies.
He does not comply, and you end up facing criminal charges.
He defends himself, and you end up dead or injured.

Or......

He doesn't comply initally but decides it's not worth the fight after I move him from my path

or

He does decide to fight, loses, and I go home.

I have youth on my side, and I'm faster and stronger than most people (don't mean to sound arrogant, it's just true). I don't want to fight, and won't if I feel that the outcome will leave me worse off whether I win or lose (fighting just because some a-hole calls you a name, insults your woman, etc.). But if someone engages me with the intent of taking what I have and is blocking my conveyance/escape, we're gonna throw down.

 

[nickn10]

MachIVshooter;
I hope you are in the parking lot if some dirt bag pulls this stunt with my wife, or me for that matter, I'm getting too damn old,70, to expect a good out come if I choose to fight but like you I'm sick of the law, lawyers and scum bags messing this country up. I think I'd kick the scum bag in the nuts and see how it develops from there. I hope someone like you or a good kid in steps in to help.

 

[JohnM]

That's where I'm at, almost 70, but with a little life left in me.
A character tries to aggressively stop me from getting into my vehicle and doesn't get out of the way when I tell him to, I'll still take him!

 

[bigfatdave]

I'm with MachIVshooter, JohnM and nickn10 (and others, just having three in a row is remarkable)

Bullies shouldn't be tolerated, and you should consider who might be next in line for a dose of bullying. Perhaps the next person to get targeted will be a 70yo in poor health, or an encumbered (expecting or young kids in tow) woman ... after all, if some scumbag is hanging around a parking lot, he/she can match up nicer cars with easy marks. MachIVshooter and myself* are unlikely to encounter these parasites if the parasitic plan is working.
I'm not suggesting vigilante justice, but rolling over for a bully just teaches them that they have a lucrative, easy, and safe job. People who make their living by threatening violence need an occasional reminder that they're in a dangerous profession and should rethink their career choices.
So, yes, I'd be likely to come to the aid of some geezer being harassed in a lot, if the circumstances were as described and obvious. If they were less obvious, I would at least get po-po involved.
I don't know what's up with this "go get the manager" plan ... seriously, is the retail store manager going to don armor and get on a white horse? A retail manager may be a good guy, but is he going to drop everything and run out to the lot and run off a ruffian for you? I want to shop/eat/do business/etc in these places, I've been going to the wrong parking lots, obviously!


* there are really two BFD's, there's the 6'3" guy who can reach out and make a mugger into a broken ragdoll, and there's the fat guy with a gimp knee ... I can't be sure which I'm projecting at any given moment, so I have a "surprise!" just in case I'm accidentially being too nice or am otherwise being the fat guy with a limp ... or I encounter a particularly dedicated scumbag, or otherwise get selected as a victim

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by MachIVshooter: I don't want to fight, and won't if I feel that the outcome will leave me worse off whether I win or lose (fighting just because some a-hole calls you a name, insults your woman, etc.).

In almost all situations, if you fight when you could have avoided doing so, the outcome will leave you worse off.

The fact that the perp had been breaking the law (and that could be very hard to prove, with only your word against his) does not give someone else the right to commit assault and battery. Knowingly or recklessly causing bodily harm to someone could result in imprisonment and/or in a lifetime forfeiture of one's gun rights.

Stating in a public forum that one would be inclined to do so could seriously weaken one's defense, should it dome to that.

We do not advocate unlawful acts here.

Legality aside, it would be extremely imprudent for anyone to willingly engage in physical contact with someone who could be infected with a serious disease or with someone who may have an edged weapon.

 

[armoredman]

Interesting concept.
Take a cell phone picture - depends on proximity. First things first; I watch my surroundings in a parking lot, and I can see my car long before I get there. I can move the cart past and pretend to be making a call a row over while dialing 911 or taking a picture, hopefully with both Sam Scumbag and my license plate number in view. If I am surprised, (two Hummers parked on each side of my little car), then I will go straight to 911 speed dial as soon as he makes his statement, backing off. Pictures may have to come from parking lot security cameras, and having needed them in the past, I know how cheap and useless those can be.
Pepper spray - less than lethal force, check laws in your area. Or try the "wise guy" approach. "Why did you pepper spray my client?"
"I didn't. I pepper sprayed my own property, my vehicle. He jumped in the way."
Funny, but not likely to work too well. Still funny. I don't normally carry OC, too much stuff as is.
Guess fall back and dial 911, unless he becomes physically aggressive towards me, my disabled wife or young son. Then we have another situation entirely.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by bigfatdave: I don't know what's up with this "go get the manager" plan ... seriously, is the retail store manager going to don armor and get on a white horse? A retail manager may be a good guy, but is he going to drop everything and run out to the lot and run off a ruffian for you?

The only people who can force the offender to leave are the police or in some jurisdictions, a private security officer, and it is likely to take a complaint from, or direction by, the manager to cause that to happen.

The manager will be motivated to intervene to avoid potential civil liability and loss of customers.

 

[dcarch]

That's a hard question there. I would be of a mind to back up 10 feet, and call the cops. I am a young, fit man, and have been taking Tae Kwon Do for over 7 years, but I'm not willing to bet everything on a fight I could avoid. If he moves to fight, then I will throw down, but otherwise, I'm not gonna engage him. Period.

 

[PowerG]

I would be more than happy to disabuse the panhandler of the notion that he is intimidating anybody by pulling this stunt on me, but even though I solve my immediate inconvenience that does nothing for the person who encounters him next. Solve the problem for everyone, get the guy ejected from the property. If the store manager is informed of a problem that is going to affect his business, it will move right to the top of the priority list.

 

[rondog]

Wow, I can't believe some of the answers/responses here! And I have to agree that over the last few years Colorado Springs has become crawling with lowlifes. I don't go there often, but when I do they're everywhere. My last trip to my telecom site there, I had to engage the CSPD because of a growing bum camp between the fence of my site and the RR tracks.

 

[JRH6856]

unless there were witnesses willing to get involved it's your word against his and he's the one with all the bruises.

He is also likely to be the one with the rap sheet which doesn't help his credibility.

 

[MachIVshooter]

unless there were witnesses willing to get involved it's your word against his and he's the one with all the bruises.

He is also likely to be the one with the rap sheet which doesn't help his credibility.

In addition to the fact that he wasn't shopping in the store and doesn't have a vehicle in the lot, so was loitering at the very least.

Here in CO, any kind of deliberate, ill-intentioned intimidation is menacing, so if he blocked your access to your vehicle demanding money, he would be guilty of that and could probably be charged with attempted robbery as well. It's no longer begging/panhandling when you attempt to force someone to give you money. It's robbery, plain and simple.

In almost all situations, if you fight when you could have avoided doing so, the outcome will leave you worse off.

I agree, and always think carefully. As such, I've not been involved in a street fight since I was a teenager. Come close a couple times, but other guy always backed down when he discovered I wasn't intimidated in the least.

Like I said, it's not something I want to do. It's time out of my day, possible injury to me and possible legal consequences. Still, I maintain that I won't tolerate social parasites trying to get the best of me expecting the non-confrontational demeanor of the average citizen. This country has come to the sad state that it's in re; criminals because we are, quite frankly, a nation of sissies. The criminal element is counting on that, and if we don't start fighting back, they'll just keep on taking.

 

[Fred Fuller]

How many of you who think "bullies" shouldn't be tolerated carry a gun on a daily basis?

For those who carry every day, are you willing to escalate a situation on the spot that could be resolved by a 9-1-1- call, or a trip back into the store to tell the owner/manager they have a problem in their parking lot?

If the answer to both of the above questions is "yes," how many of you have consulted an attorney on the legal implications of your decisions? If not, I think you should... and consider paying a retainer as well. Think about how much one hour with a good criminal defense attorney costs (ask one if you don't know). Consider what paying a bill for several hundred hours of representation at that hourly rate would cost, should such prove necessary.

YMMV of course. It's absolutely your decision, and your right to decide, and to act, however you wish.

Personally I have no trouble remembering the words of trainer John Farnam - Winning a gunfight, or any other potentially injurious encounter, is financially and emotionally burdensome. The aftermath will become your full-time job for weeks or months afterward, and you will quickly grow weary of writing checks to lawyer(s). It is, of course, better than being dead or suffering a permanently disfiguring or disabling injury, but the "penalty" for successfully fighting for your life is still formidable. -- http://www.defense-training.com/quips/2003/19Mar03.html

 

[theicemanmpls]

During a trip to home depot while in las Vegas, we were accosted by Hispanics looking for cash day labor jobs in the home depot lot. We were in the car, but had to maneuver around them.

While in the store, I stopped at the customer service counter, and informed the staff.

On our way out of the store, we noticed to large "goons" wearing orange aprons were talking to the day laborers and moving them to the edge of the propery.

 

[mljdeckard]

I agree with Lee. Call the people who get paid to remove public annoyances.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Robbery is a bit strong, although it is in the strictest sense. Yes, Disorderly Conduct would apply.

I'm not quite sure that isn't a threat.
You are being denied use/acess to your property unless you pay the "Panhandler" some cash. I'm not an Attorney or a Law Enforcement Officer; but this seems like a shakedown that is walking the fine line of a threat.

I believe that a shakedown would be more along the lines of extortion than disorderly conduct.

Self defence relies, in good part, on confidence.

I am not sure how this applies to this situation. All the shopper needs to do is to return to the safety of the store.

Situational context would determine the extent to which you demonstrate that confidence. One person blocking another person's means of escape/egress (getting in a car) can range in scope from annoyance to something far more sinister.

The panhandler may be blocking the person from the car, but hasn't actually blockd the shopper from egressing from the situation.

 

[bigfatdave]

How many of you who think "bullies" shouldn't be tolerated carry a gun on a daily basis?

For those who carry every day, are you willing to escalate a situation on the spot that could be resolved by a 9-1-1- call, or a trip back into the store to tell the owner/manager they have a problem in their parking lot?

I don't see what paragraph one has to do with paragraph two, really.
And who says 9-1-1 will "solve" the problem? What motivates the manager (if you can find a manager) to "solve" the problem?

 

[Trunk Monkey]

I don't see what paragraph one has to do with paragraph two, really

I think the point is you do everything you can to avoid the conflict and put the facts of the case on your side.

As for jumping in and just whaling on the guy, I used to work security in downtown Colorado Springs there is an old bum down there named "mumbles". Mumbles takes no crap from anyone. We was told numerous time by CSPD that we were never to approach Mumbles because Mumbles has HepB and will bite you.

Now I've seen Mumbles and I'd know it was him leaning against my car and to be very careful of how I approached.

Would you?

 

[Kevin Rohrer]

It's not a matter of wanting to escalate to violence; It's that I'm sick to death of seeing criminals so emboldened by the timorous behavior of most people, and I'm simply unwilling to lay down and take it.

This is the correct attitude. Anything less means being apathetic to crime and allowing it to continue.