Am I under-gunned without a 12ga for home defense?

[Mudinyeri]

I own several shotguns. Any of them would make good HD guns in a "hunker down" situation. They are simple to operate and, while you can miss with a shotgun, much easier to hit with than a pistol (assuming the same amount of training and practice with both arms).

We have a double-barrel 12 ga. coach gun concealed in our master bedroom. My wife has been instructed and trained to barricade herself in the room in the event of a home invasion. My son has been instructed to inform her if he is attempting to open the door. We have a plan (which primarily involves escape and evasion). We have a safe word. We review and practice.

Those last three satements will do more to preserve our lives than any gun.

 

[hardworker]

Birdshot can easily kill people at self defense ranges. Out past 30-40 feet it might not but it will still pack a punch. There was a guy around here killed dove hunting when he walked by the end of a shotgun in a gun rack at the same time someone else grabbed the gun.

 

[Boris bush]

1911Tuner

No argument at all. But I will add that I have seen exactly one person shot with a shotgun. At rooms length a single load of OO buck (COM) failed to even drop a man. He was given first aid and was very alive until he went to the place with secured windows.

I also seen one of our guys get shot in the knee with the same OO buck load from a ND. He runs 2 miles in just over 12 minutes now.

None of that has a single thing to do with tactics. Use proper ammo for the intended target. I do not know if you are a hunter or not, but I have shot more than a few rabbits, grouse, tree rats, any legal game with "bird" shot and seen more than a few not die anywhere near fast. Sometimes you will get lucky with bird shot. I am not going to rely on luck. As a true defensive weapon in a defensive stance the shotgun with proper ammo can not be beat. For an offensive roll in close quarters of a house when you may not know the exact location of a person, it blows chunks.

I dont use a hammer to screw in a screw. Can it be done, sure can. I prefer to have some kind of tactic in place and not compromise on ammo. Keep it smart, know whats beyond your target and use the proper tool.

 

[valorius]

I just got this for $300 used, police trade in. It uses the inertia operated semi-automatic mechanism of the Benelli M1 Super 90. It is, without a doubt, one of the greatest values on the "tactical" firearms market today.

Beretta 1200FP/1201FP (1201FP pictured, but they're almost the same gun)

 

[Glamdring]

I would suggest taking a week long course. Something like LFI I, that will run closer to $800 but it is offer in 2 segments over weekend to make it easier for us average people to fit in budget and schedule.

Other side of that idea is you will need 500-1000 rounds of practice ammo for the gun for a class like that.

With ammo prices setting aside basic amount of ammo to practice will run close to that $400-500 mark.

So I would suggest buying one or two good holsters, getting 6-8 speedloaders at least 500 rounds of ammo, thousand rounds more than twice as good. Then take a class with Tom Givens http://www.rangemaster.com/
Farnam http://www.defense-training.com/
Ayoob http://massadayoobgroup.com/?page_id=121
or something similar.

Note Farnam and Ayoob travel a lot for classes so you don't have to travel far for one of their classes usually.

After that level of training, plus REGULAR practice, I would suggest getting a second handgun. One that would work as pocket or BUG [Back Up Gun=2nd gun carried in case first one doesn't work, runs dry, or you need to arm someone that is qualified to use hangun in emergency but doesn't have one].

Since you have GP-100 and seem to like it I would suggest SP-101 or Glock 26 as two guns to look at for 2nd handgun.

After you have 2nd handgun and proper holsters & etc for it, then I would get long gun as 3rd gun.

12 gauge is good. But I think for most people it is way to much of a good thing for basic home defense.

IMO the 12 gauge is sort of like a PH's stopping rifle. It is big and heavy and kicks way to hard. BTW recoil wise full power 12 gauge is on par with 375 H&H full power loads.

It is best choice in only a very small nich. It is a fair choice for many self defense situations. And frequently a bad choice.

The problem with the 12 gauge is not a lack of power. The problem is that it has way to much power and size!

If your going to use a pump 12 for home defense stick to low recoil buck and slugs.

The 20 gauge for shotgun or 5.56/223 for carbine are much superior choices for home defense.

The 20 gauge has plenty of power, it is about equal to the 454 Casul, but is much easier to move with indoors because it is smaller than a 12. And the lower recoil allows one to engage multiple targets quicker than the 12.

I used to have two 12 gauge 11-87's plus an AR. Talked my girlfriend into trying 20 gauge Youth 11-87, she didn't like the AR, she really loved the 20 gauge.

After she got the 20 I compared it to my 12's, the weight and size difference of the 20 made it much easier and faster to move with than the 12. On the range the 20 is a lot faster to shoot.

I have traded one of my 12's off already, and once I get a hunting caliber upper for my AR the last 12 will probably go.

Another plus IMO with the remington is their is no dimple in the 20's magtube so adding mag extension was easy.

Now if you already owned a 12 that you used for skeet or hunting that is a different story. You would have lots of skill built up from practice with it already. And you would be saving money over switching to a whole new system.

I would still suggest using low recoil ammo unless your using a semi auto.

 

[Sam1911]

So I would suggest buying one or two good holsters, getting 6-8 speedloaders at least 500 rounds of ammo, thousand rounds more than twice as good. Then take a class with Tom Givens http://www.rangemaster.com/
Farnam http://www.defense-training.com/
Ayoob http://massadayoobgroup.com/?page_id=121
or something similar.

Note Farnam and Ayoob travel a lot for classes so you don't have to travel far for one of their classes usually.

Tom Givens just taught a class at our range about a month ago. He's a class act, indeed. A friend who attended shot the class with revolvers.

From his experiences, I would strongly suggest contacting the instructor you're thinking of training with and asking some very pointed questions about the course to be provided and how well it might be tailored to revolver shooters.

While some will point out that revolvers have to play in the same real world as autos, a training course can be set up to favor them or to REALLY disfavor them. Having to dump partial cylinders after every string and reload to shoot the next string while trying to match a course pace set to work with guns that hold twice to three times what your wheel gun holds can be frustrating if you aren't very prepared with a loading process that makes effective compromises. That might not sound like a big deal, but if you get flustered and rushed and frustrated, you won't get as much out of the class as you should.

Get training, absolutely, but consider your equipment and talk to the instructor about it if you can.

 

[sidheshooter]

I like Glamdring's post a lot.

As well, sam1911 brings up a good point about drills and revolvers. I took LFI-1 as one of two Revolver shooters, and it worked fine (I took home the signed target for top shot in class). On the other hand, the guy I'm taking classes from at the moment is way into manipulation; he runs a lot of drills with 4 rounds in 3 mags to force reloads under pressure. I didn't see the point in even bringing a wheelie to those classes-that's square in colt commander territory for me.

Fwiw.

 

[rspeer]

Very interesting stuff from Glamdring, Sam1911 and sidheshooter. I do worry about classes favoring semi-auto over revolvers, but didn't realize what specific issues might come up (magazine drills).

 

[Sam1911]

It could be enough of an issue to ruin the experience if you let it.

When the instructor is running the class through drills at a pretty quick cadence, with mixtures of 2, 3, 5, etc. shot drills starting one after another, you may find that you end up having to skip over half the shots just keeping your gun and speedloaders loaded.

While an auto shooter might be able to step to the line with 5 or more 15+ round mags loaded, and be able to reload easily in the three or four seconds between strings -- only every third or fourth string -- you'll have to empty and reload the gun often after every string, causing you to have a big pile of empty cases and loaded grounds in your pocket and on the ground.

Even if you have a large number of speedloaders, they'll get run through quickly. So then you're reloading the speedloaders, just to be able to reload the gun, which you have to do three or four times as often as your classmates. Too much fumbling and sweating, not enough listening and shooting.

A class that works very well for a revolver shooter has a different pace to it, and will usually be centered around 2, 3, or 6 shot strings and will include practical ammo management exercises.

The revolver makes an excellent defensive gun because it will deliver the (few) shots you're ever likely to need perfectly well. But as a range piece, trying to keep up with autoloaders over a 600-1,500 round course, you're likely to just frustrate yourself -- and to come away with an artificially poor opinion of the platform.

Most defensive shooting scenarios tend to require something less than 600 rds...

 

[hso]

I've seen the problem with courses being oriented for semis as well and revolver shooters being frustrated. I've also seen them do fine when the course accounted for them. Just be sure to find out first by talking to the instructor.

I've also seen the importance of checking with the instructor to be sure that the gear you have works for the course. When people show up with too few of something or an untested pistol/rifle/shotgun/mags/loaders/ammo/hydration/etc. it can ruin your learning opportunity. Your time and money are important to you so you should get the most out of the training you take.

 

[Al Thompson]

if you let it

Key point. I've had professional instruction that I thought was outdated. I just mentally crossed that information out. I've also shot IPSC/IDPA and just skipped stages I didn't like. Both are pretty good experiences in "running your gun".

 

[Sam1911]

Key point

Absolutley, but I've seen first hand how VERY experienced shooters with tons of training have been worn down and kicked in the butt by such a situation. It's one thing to skip a stage in a match if you don't care about your score and are just looking to practice. It's another to fight the same irritating problem from the first cylinder full -- constantly -- until you empty it for (literally) the 3-400th time over the course of a weekend.

 

[Bubba613]

I would suggest taking a week long course. Something like LFI I, that will run closer to $800 but it is offer in 2 segments over weekend to make it easier for us average people to fit in budget and schedule.

Other side of that idea is you will need 500-1000 rounds of practice ammo for the gun for a class like that.

With ammo prices setting aside basic amount of ammo to practice will run close to that $400-500 mark.

So I would suggest buying one or two good holsters, getting 6-8 speedloaders at least 500 rounds of ammo, thousand rounds more than twice as good. Then take a class with Tom Givens http://www.rangemaster.com/
Farnam http://www.defense-training.com/
Ayoob http://massadayoobgroup.com/?page_id=121
or something similar.

Frankly I think that's a lousy suggestion.
The OP suggests he wants to keep his revolver for HD and considers adding a shotgun for extra power.
Classes are fine for general skills but the OP has a specific purpose that will not really be served by a class teaching skills that are not easily practiced afterwards. Add the rather considerable expense involved and it seems like a bad use of limited resources. Fun, but a poor use of limited resources

 

[Cosmoline]

The handgun has the advantage of being very easy to tote and conceal. That's where the advantages end. Nobody is saying get rid of the short gun. But if you HAVE the option of grabbing the long gun, do so. The classic scenario would be home defense with a night intruder. To rely in such a situation on a short gun when you could have just as easily had a shotgun to hand is foolishness.

Personally I don't trust buck too much, and bird not at all. I'd go with soft low-velocity slugs. They make some specially for this purpose now.

 

[Sam1911]

Classes are fine for general skills but the OP has a specific purpose that will not really be served by a class teaching skills that are not easily practiced afterwards. Add the rather considerable expense involved and it seems like a bad use of limited resources. Fun, but a poor use of limited resources

Are you familiar with the courses these trainers teach? This isn't "general skills" stuff. This is defensive shooting, applicable to real-world situations at home, on the street, sometimes in/around vehicles. If he chooses the right class, it would be COMPLETELY applicable to his situation.

Second, no trainer that I've met or heard of tells you that their course days are where you're going to develop your mastery. They ALL teach things with the understanding that you won't master any of it until you've practiced it many times. You go to class to learn WHAT and HOW to practice. After those two+ days your skills aren't going to be a whole lot more developed, but your understanding will be -- so that you know how to go develop your skills on your own. It would be ridiculous to tell people how many months or years of practice it takes to master these skills and then tell them that only their class days count!

That's a very strange view of training...

 

[mothermopar]

Folks,

I won't dispute that birdshot COULD be effective, given the right scenario and proper shot placement.

HOWEVER...

Given the dynamics of SHTF, your best option is to shoot center mass using the most effective weapon system at your disposal. Birdshot is NOT the most CONSISTENTLY effective and 'aiming high' isn't the best idea either... the head/neck is a small target and even birdshot won't spread enough at typical indoor distances to account for error in aiming.

Aim for and Hit center mass with buckshot and all will be fine.

 

[Bubba613]

Are you familiar with the courses these trainers teach? This isn't "general skills" stuff. This is defensive shooting, applicable to real-world situations at home, on the street, sometimes in/around vehicles. If he chooses the right class, it would be COMPLETELY applicable to his situation.

Given that he will not be shooting "in and around vehicles" you've pretty much made my point.

 

[gearhead]

With $450 to spend, you might want to consider doing a little shopping. With a little effort and some luck, you may be able to find a 12 gauge pump gun that will suit your needs for around $200-$250. A quick search over at Gunbroker found several quality shotguns in that price range. the rest of the money you've saved, you can use to look for either a second handgun (you can find revolvers in that price range), or maybe even a .22 that can become your fun gun.

I agree. Pick up a $250 shotgun, a box of shells, and spend the rest of the budget on something like a milsurp P64 or Makarov or a police trade-in S&W revolver. I like the 9X18 semi-autos because they're the kind of pistol you can carry around in a pocket holster when you're in the house, so it's on you when the doorbell rings.

 

[Sam1911]

Given that he will not be shooting "in and around vehicles" you've pretty much made my point.

Yes... there are some classes that get into that. Like I said, talking to the instructor about what he/she teaches and how the class will be structured is a very good thing.

So you're down on training because it is only good for "general skills" AND because some trainers teach classes that get into advanced techniques like working around vehicles? The view from both sides of the argument at the same time must be dizzying.

Once more, with feeling:

If he chooses the right class, it would be COMPLETELY applicable to his situation.

If he's going to be seriously considering defensive use of a firearm, quality training oriented to his skill level and his situation, is a very good idea.

If funds are extremely limited, then ammo is the number one priority, of course. Anything left in the budget after that would be best spent on instruction. Then, more firearms if that tickles his fancy.

 

[sidheshooter]

That training thing again. Mindset, skillset, tool fetish...

If there is anyone here who has had serious training from one of the top-reputed schools that advocates just saving the money to buy more gear, I haven't seen them post yet.

I'd rather have one, single revolver and a solid week long course from a good school than a safe full of black metal and plastic.

In fact, when I took my first serious course, that's all I had; one NYPD trade-in model 64 S&W (DAO, bead blast, of course, the one that I outshot all the black pants/black pistol guys with). I could have bought a lot of cool stuff for the 8 bens it cost to take that class, but all that stuff probably would have been traded out by now and the knowledge and notes from that first course are still with me.

To each their own, though.

 

[AK kind of guy]

No i dont think so a 12ga is a great multipurpose shotgun

 

[Azb]

I think a shotgun is a great addition to a household. It can be used for defense, it's a great SHTF weapon, a good one doesn't have to cost much, and they're fun to shoot.

If you are going to only have one long gun, a shotgun is a great choice. It's better than a rifle at everything but longer range shots (over 75 yards or so) and you can mix up the ammo for your needs. In a long term SHTF scenario, it will be very useful. You can hunt everything from small birds to big game, and it's much better at close quarters than most rifles. If you have to bug out, you will probably only carry one long gun, and it would be a shotty. If you have to bug in, a shotgun is better for defense, and if you have others with you that don't shoot, they will do much better with a shotgun than they will with an AR15 with no training.

Go for it!

Az

 

[Glamdring]

Bubba613:

Frankly I think that's a lousy suggestion.
The OP suggests he wants to keep his revolver for HD and considers adding a shotgun for extra power.
Classes are fine for general skills but the OP has a specific purpose that will not really be served by a class teaching skills that are not easily practiced afterwards. Add the rather considerable expense involved and it seems like a bad use of limited resources. Fun, but a poor use of limited resources

Okay, several things.

First, guns for me have nothing to do with fun. For me they are in the same class as the trauma kit in my car and house. Emergency equipment to help me or other deal with something really bad until real professionals can get there.

If you think about it that way, you will understand that getting more bandaids & quick clot & gauze pads after you have enough for a basic kit doesn't help.

Instead you need to get the skills to deal with more complex problems. Better yet get the skills and experience to avoid the REALLY bad stuff. It was only a few years ago that I learned, from a nurse, that it was more important to control bleeding than it was to use a sterile bandaid or dressing.

Get them alive to ER and they will probably be fine, but if they bleed out first not much can be done


A 357 magnum with 125 magnum JHP is about as good as it gets for stopping people for handguns. Yeah a 12 gauge is better. BUT, you can't carry your shotgun with you when you leave the house like you can the 357. Assuming CCW here. So in a way a handgun is better, even though weaker, because you can have it with you all the time. And a 2nd smaller handgun will let you carry 2 guns concealed, drawing a 2nd gun is way faster than reloading or clearing a malf. Plus a smaller gun will let you be armed at times when all you can hide is in belly band, pocket, or ankle holster. So even though it is weaker the little gun will let you be ARMED more often.

When you studying self defense you will quickly see the biggest problem that people have is they live in condition white. Which means they just walk along and don't look ahead and around for possible problems.

Most problems can be avoided or noticed at least few seconds before it hits the fan. Another connected part to this is most people don't really think bad things will happen to them. So when they train & practice they spend little or no time on boring or difficult for them things. Like moving to cover.

Did you know that most cops that get shot but make it to cover survive? Or that not moving to cover when they could, before shots get fired, along with getting to close are two of the biggest tactical errors cops make? If you have practiced looking for cover and noticing problems, even 10 seconds or so can make huge difference. Plenty of time to move to cover and make them walk through your gunfire to get to you.

 

[Glamdring]

Don't worry about the revolver at the class, at least if you take the type of class I suggested. They are not doing 200 shot strings.

Trust me the auto shooters will jealous when you do malfunction drills

In real world self defense revolvers have some very real advantages. The are a LOT better for close range/contact range fights.

Don't get me wrong autos are good also, I normally carry one glock and one j frame. Thought the J frame will be replaced in near future with SP-101.

 

[30mag]

I like the shotgun. IMHO five rounds of buckshot is more firepower than 12 rounds of .357 or 17 of 9mm. Most HD shotguns have magazines large enough to accommodate more than just five shells (6-9 shells).
Why get another pistol?