Ammo supply catching up with demand?

[Pack]

That can't be your point. The difference is that I was describing liberty and choice, and not taking issue with the liberty and choice of anyone, as you clearly were.

You said: "When ammo availability gets better, remember who took advantage, and who did not. That is when we have the power again."

The words you used set forth a proposed course of action for a whole, undefined category of people ("we", "us"), and additionally intoned that there is something weak or wrong about those who elect not to participate in your "reaping" : "Of course many folks will be able to rationalize this away."

 

[chieftain]

That can't be your point. The difference is that I was describing liberty and choice, and not taking issue with the liberty and choice of anyone, as you clearly were.

So am I. I am at liberty to chose. Just as 'they' are at liberty with the ability to choose a certain course of action today, that does not affect my liberty to choose a course of action tomorrow. That IS the choice of a freeman, which I am.

What is your point?

You said: "When ammo availability gets better, remember who took advantage, and who did not. That is when we have the power again."

I am at liberty to decide that at times of scarcity some folks chose to charge me much more than they normally do, or what I am calling a larger margin simply because they have the liberty and power of possesion to choose to. At the moment, I do not have as many choices, which tends to limit some of my liberty in no illegal or negative way in and of itself. That is unless someone in their situation chooses to take advantage of my loss of choices. It really is that simple. In law the extreme example is called a monopoly, that is not the case here, just more limits than I would like to see.

I am choosing to use my liberty, and purchase power, some time in the future if I get more choices and have MORE purchase power than I have right now, and choose not to purchase from folks who I think either in fact did, or tried to take advantage of me. That future may never be, but I think it will be.

That is what freedom, liberty, and choice allow me to do, in not only appropriate manner, but the rational response of any freeman.

The words you used set forth a proposed course of action for a whole, undefined category of people ("we", "us"), and additionally intoned that there is something weak or wrong about those who elect not to participate in your "reaping" : "Of course many folks will be able to rationalize this away."

I can speak for a bunch of guys at my Gun Club(they just so happen to be shooters who consume ammunition). I am not the only one keeping tabs on who charged what. I don't know of any other category I recognize other than freemen. Who or what category are you worried about?

You may or may not be weak, I am not your judge. I can speak for myself and at least a few other shooters who will return the favor to those who we feel charged reasonable prices, and those who, in our opinion did not, accordingly.

I am not at liberty to say how anyone would choose to rationalize anything I say. I can only say what I mean.

Rationalize away. But please don't say things I didn't say, or invent interpretations. I said what I meant.

Go figure.

Fred

 

[JKimball]

hey... havent you heard...or rather been told? IT IS CAPITALISM.... all capitalism... the wonderful world we live in when taking advantage of people is justifiable.... BS!!!!!

Capitalism works. Quit whining and start an ammo company so you can share in the huge profits. In the process you will do us a favor and increase the supply. You win, we win.

 

[Pack]

Chieftain, your entire original post:

"For future reference, remember the retailers that took advantage of us.

Prices legitimately went up, but that did not justify screwing your customers.

When ammo availability gets better, remember who took advantage, and who did not.

That is when we have the power again. Of course many folks will be able to rationalize this away.

Go figure."

My issue is not what you personally choose to do. It's the imperative you issue to others on a public forum. It's also your imputing some sort of sinister intent to the businessmen involved. You make no allowance for the way in which the same "fears" that helped drive the spike in demand, and therefore prices, work against the retailers. Maybe these guys are trying to make good on a business opportunity while they can, as they wonder how much ammo they may or may not be selling in a few years' time under a crippling tax? The point is that you cannot know their intent, or their financial standing, and therefore the motivation for their actions.

It's ammunition, not food. There are precious few people, apart from those in uniform, whose daily existence requires ammunition. Buying it is, for most of us here, a transaction of choice.

Again, read your original post. It smacks of pitchfork proletarianism, and sounds a hell of a lot like an eat-the-rich leftist griping about "windfall" profits made by oil companies. You made your choices as a consumer based on the assumption that something you want/need would always be readily available at reasonable prices. Well, the assumption was incorrect - and yes, it's no fun. But that shouldn't necessarily and immediately cause you to 1) demonize anyone, 2) deem the whole system somehow "unfair", or 3) incite others to do the same.

The profit motive - even when it devolves into outright greed, as you seem to believe it has in the case of some retailers - is something I think we can all understand (maybe this is where your choice of the word "rationalize" comes in). But what will the motive be for the course of action you propose to follow and seek others to do the same? Revenge?

No one "took advantage" of anyone. It's the market, pure and simple. The price tags are on the merchandise. You know what you're getting yourself into. If you choose to, wonderful. But willfully doing so, and then complaining about it and villifying others, is simply wrong.

Liberty can't be separated from responsibility, but there you are talking about liberty while seeking to avoid responsibility for what was a matter of your choice. You can't blame anyone else for the outcome of something to which you assent.

Freedom is freedom and the market is the market. It's not your place to second guess a business owner about whether his profit was "reasonable" in your mind. What if everyone had that mindset, as many now in Washington seem to? That's a very long way from liberty, indeed.

I'm sure you do mean what you say - and with a tone, to boot. Well, the very nature and usage of the phrase "rationalize away" means that the people in question would be trying to 1) avoid acknowledging, 2) justify, or 3) explain away some nefarious act. My point is there has been no such act.

The bottom line is that the people paying those prices for the goods didn't think them unreasonable, or they wouldn't have paid them.

My issue was never with lamenting high prices. We all do. I just don't see it as cause to villify anyone.

Hopefully, these retailers will still have some of this money when the next political assault against our rights comes along, as it inevitably will. With the health of their livelihood threatened, the - gasp - profit motive would dictate that they plow some of it into appropriate political countermeasures.

 

[outerlimit]

I've never been able to figure out why people buy cases and cases of ammo at Walmart.

I've purchased a box or two when it's on sale, or when I'm heading to the range. But I've never gone to Walmart with the express intent of purchasing cases of ammo. That's what mail order is for, you have a bigger selection and you don't have to pay tax.

 

[Dismantler]

The Wally-Worlds in southern NH have been sold out every time that I have gone in lately...including yesterday. I have a core holding of .22, .22mag and .38 for my handguns. I saw this coming and stocked up on .22 LR as it was the best buy for my money.

 

[GojuBrian]

Feel sorry for anyone needing .380 ammo. I don't know how prices are elsewhere, but if you can find it here you will pay a pretty penny. I fortunately do not have one and I won't anytime soon with these prices.

winchester target .380 ammo, $80 for 100 rds. Not kidding.

Winchester .40 target ammo $30 for 100 rds.

 

[22-rimfire]

I know that I waste way too much time going to Walmart (WM) looking for ammunition. I've just about put a halt to this activity. No more special trips. I often don't even swing by the sporting goods area any more if I'm shopping WM for groceries.

I think it's a sign. Got enough. Don't shoot nearly enough. Why? Don't want to make special trips to Walmart, why else?

There is an old Tom Rush song called "The Circle Game" (written by Joni Mitchell). Good old tune. Now everyone will be asking.... who's Tom Rush?

 

[Jaybird78]

Well, I think this is the way it is going to be for awhile. I'm not sure how many of you reload, but finding components is just as bad. I just received yesterday my 1000 count shipment of .45 230 FMJ bullets. It took right at about 30 days to get these from backorder. Primers are a whole other story. I have had two coworkers in the last 2 weeks ask me about starting a reload set up because they too were shell shocked by the prices and the availability.

Good luck to all.

 

[Quoheleth]

I was at Academy in the Channelview/Greens Bayou area on Friday. They had a couple cases of Monarch 9mm - steel and brass cases - and the Monarch .223 - steel and brass. I bought a couple boxes of each as my bro-in-law was coming to town and didn't know if he had ammo. While I roll my own ammo for my shooting, a little voice said not to let him shoot my reloads..."just in case."

They also had at least a little in most of the major calibers - .380 was still out.

FWIW, the .223 was behind the counter, not out on the rifle ammo shelf. Don't know if they are rationing - two boxes apparantly wasn't a problem, if they are.

Q

 

[jackstinson]

Well I ran into 2000 rounds of WWB 45 acp at Walmart today. I bought it all and split it with two shooting buddies.

And people wonder why the ammo shelves at Walmart go bare as soon as the truck rolls in......"I bought it all".

 

[rich636]

Yeah I agree that you can't just throw capitalism around as a cop out for greed and hoarding. To some extent that's why we're in a recession right now. You can have capitalism and still be civil enough to leave some for others.

 

[WVleo]

Just yesteday I was at the Local WM and I stopped at the Sporting Goods counter as I do every trip to WM and there was no handgun ammo available. The 2 Ladies who work that counter asked Me what I was looking for and I told them 9mm . The shipment was sitting there in the shopping cart waiting to be placed on the shelves. They had recieved 1 1,000 round case of Blaser Brass 9mm and asked Me if I wanted the whole case as that had been what people were buying as fast as they got it in. I said no, but I will take 10 boxes and leave some for the next Guy ! Now I can shoot for a couple weeks again . Now I will never buy from the people who buy a case for $190 and want to sell the case for $300, but hey there are those that will, so who am I to judge. .........WVleo

 

[seeker_two]

I'll tell you what's really unfair.....revolver ammo prices....

Seems like the ammo companies are putting most of their production efforts into supplying those fancy-schmancy, bottom-feeding self-shuckers that they're completely ignoring those of us who shoot sixguns (and five-guns and eight-guns, etc.) in the ammo department. I have yet to see a box of .38SPL under $30/50 or .357MAG under $40/50.....and don't get me started on .44SPL or .45LC....

Listen up, ammo makers: shape up and get busy keeping those steel cylinders turning and the gunpowder burning for us revolver-lovers. Revolvers are REAL guns....just ask Elmer Keith, Skeeter Skelton, John Wayne, Clint Eastwood, Chuck Norris, and God Himself!

!!!MAKE MORE REVOLVER AMMO!!!










P.S. I do reload.....just haven't had time lately....and don't get me started on component prices....

 

[22-rimfire]

Definitely. Make more revolver ammo!

 

[Autopistola]

I choose nay. Weather and lack of money has dampened my hobby, but I choose to vote with my pocketbook by hopefully sending the message "I won't pay your inflated prices".

I love plinking with my AK and SKS, but it's just not feasible anymore. I can easily buy premium 7.62x39 rounds in my small town, but there's no point in paying $24+ for 20rds of Winchester softpoints when I can still get .308 for about $20. You hoarders, panic buyers, gougers, and fear-mongerers made it near impossible for me to buy by the case, so I just won't buy at all. If more gunnies just decided not to buy, we'd send a message that the steady bullet consumers will not purchase at the going rate.

 

[SCBradley]

chieftain's right.

I think Obama and Geithner need to step in and nationalize ammo production. Nip all this horrible profit-making in the bud.

Until then, I'm going to be sitting here reading Noam Chomsky and making a list of bourgeoisie retailers that have wronged the people.

Your day will come capitalist oppressors!

 

[Sav .250]

It`s seems to be a "sellers" market,
for the for see-able future anyway.

 

[Hawk]

chieftain's right.

I think Obama and Geithner need to step in and nationalize ammo production. Nip all this horrible profit-making in the bud.

Until then, I'm going to be sitting here reading Noam Chomsky and making a list of bourgeoisie retailers that have wronged the people.

Your day will come capitalist oppressors!

When capitalism, Adam Smith and free market economics are on the table it seems reading comprehension really takes it in the shorts.

Consumers expressing displeasure and shopping elsewhere is a fundamental part of a free market. I didn't see any proposal that those perceived to be gougers be harmed by government fiat.

There's an old Texas free market axiom: You can shear a sheep any number of times but you can only skin him once. If a vendor leaves a customer with the impression he's been "skinned", the customer will likely find a different vendor.

There are a lot of customers finding different vendors due to actions taken by vendors in recent months and this is part and parcel of a free market dynamic.

And I've crossed a few off my list because I preferred the business practices of certain of their competitors.

There's nothing about seller's rights that implies I should abrogate my rights as a purchaser, up to and including my right to remember, hold grudges and not shop anywhere I believe may have attempted to "skin" me rather than "shear" me. Ain't capitalsim wonderful?

Chieftain merely suggested that others may wish to exercise their rights as consumers similarly. I saw no call for regulation by any agency, only a reminder that annoyed consumers may wish to act like annoyed consumers. Free markets do not impose pricing controls nor do they force consumers to buy from those whose business practices they abhor.

You are, of course, free to determine if you were annoyed by the business practices of any of your suppliers.

 

[Old Fuff]

I think Obama and Geithner need to step in and nationalize ammo production.

And do anyone think that after that Obama and Geithner would make it easier for civilians to get rifle ammunition that fits military style rifles or high-capacity pistols? That pair of Socialists might reduce the industry to producing only B-Bs and air rifle pellets.

Those that might should be careful. They might get what they wished for. :banghead:

 

[Nathanael_Greene]

Old Fuff, I'm pretty sure SCBradley was kidding, in the "be careful what you ask for" mode.

 

[Just Jim]

Before the panic I bought a box of federal jhp 357 magnum from a local gun store. It had been sitting on the shelf for some time. Paid $12 for it and went my merry way.

Stopped by the next day for targets and the shop owner was complaining how I took advantage of him cause it cost him so much to replace the 357 magnum I bought.

This is the same guy that is now chargeing $50 a box for 380. Fine for them to take advantage of you but he marks the price on the ammo and puts it on the shelf, then it goes up from the wholesaler to replace it and you are a bum cause he has to pay more. Even though he makes a profit selling it.

Won't shop there anymore, he lost a customer that has spent alot on guns and ammo. Saved him all the anguish of losing money buy selling me stuff.

jj

 

[SomeDude]

Supposedly the price for copper is dropping so that should help out a little too. It would also help if all you panicking hoarders would unclench your sphincters a little bit because you're the ones responsible for the increase in price. Seems like the word "Obama" puts some of you into Plus 4 Pucker Factor.

 

[Old Fuff]

Old Fuff, I'm pretty sure SCBradley was kidding, in the "be careful what you ask for" mode.

I know, and I even got a PM from a moderator concerning my post.

I got the point in the first place, but we get many "visitors" (and maybe some members) with different backgrounds that might not. I suspect there are some people out in cyberspace that actually might think that having the government take over the ammunition industry was a good idea.

My post was intended for them.

 

[USSR]

!!!MAKE MORE REVOLVER AMMO!!!

No, YOU make more revolver ammo. And, if you LEARN how to cast your own bullets, YOU can make revolver ammo for little more than .22 rimfire ammo sells for. Time for some of you guys to quit yer bitchin' and start taking care of things yourself.

Don