Ammunition choices for CC

[TomJ]

I've talked to people who load the first 3 to 5 rounds of their CC gun with hollow point ammunition, with the remainder of the rounds in that magazine and any spare magazines being FP bullets or another type of bullet capable of better penetration. The thinking is that after the first few rounds are fired your attacker/attackers will have taken cover and they want something that can penetrate that cover. Thoughts on this? I live in the Chicago area, so it's obviously well populated and excess penetration is a consideration. I'm asking this with the understanding that I'm no longer a LEO and having two boys to raise, my main goal is to get out of an area where trouble or violence is taking place. I have no intention of remaining in an area during a gun fight if I have the choice to leave nor would I shoot at an attacker who abandoned the attack and was trying to leave.

 

[Jeff White]

I don’t see the purpose in loading rounds of different types in the same magazine. If I were worried that I might need a round with more penetration I’d just load them in a separate magazine.

I worked with officers who did the same thing with the department issued 870s. Mixing and matching buckshot and slugs. I found it easier to keep slugs in the sidesaddle and do a select slug drill if the engagement called for a slug rather then eject a shell or two on the ground to get the round I wanted.

 

[Fine Figure of a Man]

All the ammo in my carry guns are the same hollow point rounds.
Shooting at an attacker that has sought cover can be viewed in court as you being the aggressor.

 

[TomJ]

All the ammo in my carry guns are the same hollow point rounds.
Shooting at an attacker that has sought cover can be viewed in court as you being the aggressor.

If they seek cover and stop the attack, you’re correct. If they continue the attack from behind cover you’re justified in shooting back, especially if you have no opportunity to flee.

 

[JTHunter]

TomJ - while I don't have a CCW at this time, the guns in the house alternate in the magazine/wheel. In my .357, all the bullets are the same weight with the only difference being JHPs or JSPs. My .380 has different weights (90 gr. JHP, 100 gr. FMJ-RN), I still alternate them. This way, if the .380 HP doesn't slow them down enough, I "go deep" with the FMJ.

 

[luzyfuerza]

The OP's question assumes that "hollow points" don't penetrate barriers as well as "flat point" bullets. Both of these terms are generic; what is true for one brand, caliber, and weight of hollow point or flat point bullet might not be true for others. You might as well ask whether oranges are sweet.

Better to understand the real expansion and barrier penetration performance of the particular projectiles that you're considering. Projectile-specific data is out there. Say, something like this:

http://www.winchesterle.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/pdf/Handgun Bullet Barrier Testing Protocol_2016.pdf

or this:

http://www.le.vistaoutdoor.com/ammunition/federal/handgun/details.aspx?id=574

I happen to carry Ranger T-series 230 grain ammo in 45 ACP. The T-series in 45 ACP expands a little more than its bonded brother when entering bare gelatin, and when entering gelatin after first penetrating heavy cloth, drywall, or plywood. When penetrating steel, it doesn't expand quite as much as the bonded version of the same weight bullet. Penetration for each situation passes the FBI protocols.

These expansion and penetration results are good enough for me. I see no need to carry some kind of flat point or FMJ rounds in the hope that they might penetrate barriers better. Especially in the absence of real data to that effect.

 

[typhun]

a point of view on mixing ammo from Paul Harrell

 

[luzyfuerza]

An LA county sheriff's deputy pulled a Kimber that had been stolen from me out of a gang-banger's waistband. When the gun was returned to me, they included all of the bad guy's ammo, too. As Paul observed, it was a mess of bullet types, headstamps, and brands. And corroded.

I'm not sure that mixing ammo screams "bad guy", but consistent ammo in good condition does probably whisper "good guy".

 

[TomJ]

I knew using two different types of ammunition had the potential to complicate things legally, but wasn't aware mixing ammunition was common among criminals.

In regards to levels of penetration, I'm a fan of HST's and they're in my nighstand gun, a FNX 45. As good as they are, they won't penentrate a barrier as well as a hard cast FP bullet.

 

[Kendahl]

This way, if the .380 HP doesn't slow them down enough, I "go deep" with the FMJ.

The current standard for handgun ammunition is 12" to 18" penetration in ballistic gelatin. Some .380 loads don't penetrate far enough. Some penetrate too far. A few penetrate consistently to the desired depth and are the ones to load into your magazine. See www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNtPHYwcDts and www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#380ACP. Adequate but not excessive penetration is critical. Expansion is nice to have but not as important. The limitation with "weak" calibers, like .380, is that they use up most of their energy penetrating and have little or none left for expansion.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

a point of view on mixing ammo from Paul Harrell

You beat me to it

 

[FL-NC]

I think you are over-thinking this. Just get some HP rounds from a reputable company (Federal, Winchester, Remington, Hornady, Speer) that function reliably in your handgun and load the same rounds into the gun. Choreography and trying to guess what will happen in any fight will always leave you disappointed when it doesn't follow the script. In COMBAT, yes, people do different things with tracer rounds in rifles- for example, we were known to keep several in the top of my mag in my rifle, so that at the outset of a gunfight, squad members who are wondering what someone was firing at could at least ID the direction of fire if not the target. We also used them at the bottom of the mag to remind us we were near empty. I don't have a lot of experience using a shotgun for anti-personnel use, but as SPECIALIZED as a shotgun has the potential to be (assuming the user has access to different types of ammo), maybe it makes sense to carry more than 1 type of ammo. But just stick to the same thing in your defensive sidearm.

 

[TomJ]

I think you are over-thinking this. Just get some HP rounds from a reputable company (Federal, Winchester, Remington, Hornady, Speer) that function reliably in your handgun and load the same rounds into the gun. Choreography and trying to guess what will happen in any fight will always leave you disappointed when it doesn't follow the script. In COMBAT, yes, people do different things with tracer rounds in rifles- for example, we were known to keep several in the top of my mag in my rifle, so that at the outset of a gunfight, squad members who are wondering what someone was firing at could at least ID the direction of fire if not the target. We also used them at the bottom of the mag to remind us we were near empty. I don't have a lot of experience using a shotgun for anti-personnel use, but as SPECIALIZED as a shotgun has the potential to be (assuming the user has access to different types of ammo), maybe it makes sense to carry more than 1 type of ammo. But just stick to the same thing in your defensive sidearm.

That's the conclusion I'm coming to, and that's what I've been doing. The question came up and I was wondering if that strategy was an improvement on what I've been carrying. It's looking like the down side of mixing ammo outweighs any benefits.

 

[Old Dog]

I think you are over-thinking this.

This.

Federal HST, Speer Gold Dots, Hornady Critical Duty, Remington Golden Saber, and call it a day ...

 

[strambo]

Yes, over-thinking. Pick a good quality bonded HP such as those listed above and you get good expansion with controlled penetration AND good barrier performance.

I've always stuck to Gold Dots just because they seem to be fairly easy to find at a decent price.

 

[Elm Creek Smith]

I have loaded all my .38 Special revolvers and my wife's .357 Magnum with Winchester "Defend" 130 grain .38 Special ammunition. All the speed loaders/speed strips for them are loaded with the same ammunition. My Model 13-3 is loaded with Speer 135 grain Short Barrel GDHP .357 Magnum ammunition with the same in the two dedicated speedloaders for it, however I only carry it on the highway or when I'm working in an...unpleasant neighborhood. My duty Model 686-6 is loaded with Remington 125 grain SJHP .357 Magnum ammunition with the same in my 4 speed loaders, however I rarely carry it concealed on duty.

 

[strambo]

^^^^

That revolver talk reminds me that for my wife's gun (S&W 386 Nightguard), I do have different ammo in it vs. speed loaders. Speer .38 +P 135g short barrel GD's loaded and Hornady Critical Defense on the speed loaders because the wide GD HPs tend to hang up during fast reloads and the Hornadys have a pointed polymer tip. Of course in a home defense situation, she likely won't need more than the 7 on board.

 

[Elm Creek Smith]

^^^^^ My wife's gun is my old S&W 681 with Crimson Trace grips. The older I get, the more I like lighter guns. My primary off-duty gun is a S&W Model 12-2 (pictured to the left). My "everywhere I go" gun is a S&W 642-2. (No, the lock doesn't bother me.) I try to keep the same lot number ammo loaded in the guns as well. My hand loads these days are for plinking/practice/hunting, not self-defense.

 

[herrwalther]

The differences between top of the line brands of HPs are going to be negligible in a self defense shooting. Variations of penetration distance or expansion size are not likely to make a difference in a shooting. In my relatively humble opinion, there are 2 far more important criteria for choosing a SD round:

1) How does it shoot in YOUR gun. Penetration/expansion isn't going to mean squat if the round flies off 4" away from where you are aiming. Also take into consideration muzzle flash and sound for when shooting in low light or indoors.
2) Supply. If you can only get 1 box of whatever ammo you are shooting, it isn't a good choice. Everyone should practice with their SD ammo of choice to stay somewhat proficient.

 

[TomJ]

The differences between top of the line brands of HPs are going to be negligible in a self defense shooting. Variations of penetration distance or expansion size are not likely to make a difference in a shooting. In my relatively humble opinion, there are 2 far more important criteria for choosing a SD round:

1) How does it shoot in YOUR gun. Penetration/expansion isn't going to mean squat if the round flies off 4" away from where you are aiming. Also take into consideration muzzle flash and sound for when shooting in low light or indoors.
2) Supply. If you can only get 1 box of whatever ammo you are shooting, it isn't a good choice. Everyone should practice with their SD ammo of choice to stay somewhat proficient.

Depending on the gun, I use HST, Gold Dots or Buffalo Barnes 115 grain +P+. I lean toward HST, as they perform well and I'm finding them for under $20 for a box of 50. I run a couple hundred through any gun I'm going to carry, so you're right that availability and cost play into it.

 

[Water Garden]

If a person is trying to take a Elk at 900-1200 yards, I would agree that projectile type, style, configuration, weight and powder charge can be a reasonable consideration. I think that in some military applications, its certainly reasonable to use different types of projectiles for different tasks but that is definitely not what we are talking about here. When it comes to citizen use of a handgun in lawful self defense, I think its impractical to mix ammo. There is a point when a persons attempts to satisfy every possible contingency begins to venture into the fantastical. I am a proponent of using a singular JHP ammo which runs reliably in a persons firearm and loading all carry-mags in the same way.

on the video..

I disagree that mixing of ammo is some sort of indication of criminality but I do agree that a majority of criminals are bumbling in their preparations and will often times use "whatever" is available. This often times will result in odd or wrong ammo selection, poorly maintained, mismatched or broken weapons being found in the possession of the badguy. I do not believe that the criminals are mixing their ammo but are simply indifferent or inexperienced.

I have used plain ole federal 9bp for as long as I can remember

 

[TomJ]

If a person is trying to take a Elk at 900-1200 yards, I would agree that projectile type, style, configuration, weight and powder charge can be a reasonable consideration. I think that in some military applications, its certainly reasonable to use different types of projectiles for different tasks but that is definitely not what we are talking about here. When it comes to citizen use of a handgun in lawful self defense, I think its impractical to mix ammo. There is a point when a persons attempts to satisfy every possible contingency begins to venture into the fantastical. I am a proponent of using a singular JHP ammo which runs reliably in a persons firearm and loading all carry-mags in the same way.

on the video..

I disagree that mixing of ammo is some sort of indication of criminality but I do agree that a majority of criminals are bumbling in their preparations and will often times use "whatever" is available. This often times will result in odd or wrong ammo selection, poorly maintained, mismatched or broken weapons being found in the possession of the badguy. I do not believe that the criminals are mixing their ammo but are simply indifferent or inexperienced.

I have used plain ole federal 9bp for as long as I can remember

Understood, but to clarify we're not talking about every possible contingency. The question revolved around two scenarios, the inital confrontation and shooting through cover the attacker is using after the intial confrontation with the contingencies I mentioned in the initial post.

 

[RPZ]

All the ammo in my carry guns are the same hollow point rounds.
Shooting at an attacker that has sought cover can be viewed in court as you being the aggressor.

Citation? If an attacker still is armed and already tried to kill me, unless I have a retreat with real cover "right now", as opposed to concealment, he is going to be taking fire.

I load with hollowpoints, spare mags with ball. Sometimes. If I am going to be in an environment that is crowded I'll carry all hollowpoints.

 

[Water Garden]

Two scenarios with how many combinations of fmj vs jhp... and what algorithm are you going to use to determine the probabilities of needing which one first? Are you going to stagger every other round, every 3rd round, split it 50/50? How do you qualify the diminished return potential? Once you answer those questions, I have about 4 more. This is what I mean by impractical and that's a conservative description.

 

[RPZ]

If a person is trying to take a Elk at 900-1200 yards, I would agree that projectile type, style, configuration, weight and powder charge can be a reasonable consideration. I think that in some military applications, its certainly reasonable to use different types of projectiles for different tasks but that is definitely not what we are talking about here. When it comes to citizen use of a handgun in lawful self defense, I think its impractical to mix ammo. There is a point when a persons attempts to satisfy every possible contingency begins to venture into the fantastical. I am a proponent of using a singular JHP ammo which runs reliably in a persons firearm and loading all carry-mags in the same way.

on the video..

I disagree that mixing of ammo is some sort of indication of criminality but I do agree that a majority of criminals are bumbling in their preparations and will often times use "whatever" is available. This often times will result in odd or wrong ammo selection, poorly maintained, mismatched or broken weapons being found in the possession of the badguy. I do not believe that the criminals are mixing their ammo but are simply indifferent or inexperienced.

I have used plain ole federal 9bp for as long as I can remember

I think you are referring to what is now called the "Classic" load. If I recall correctly this load had an 88% one shot stop according to the Marshall/Sanow data way back when. Very good for a standard pressure load that won't accelerate wear on your pistol if you practice with your carry load. And it is manageable in compacts as well.