Angry hotel guest with handgun permit, what would you do?

[SolidChoice]

Hi all,

I'm not sure if this should go here or in the "legal" forum, but I need some advice.

I manage a hotel, and a while back, I had some rowdy guests that were causing a disturbance around 11:30 p.m., but they were not causing any real threat of danger or violence as far as I know. Another guest became upset and told my front desk clerk, "You better call the police or do something about these guys. I have a permit to carry a weapon, and if I see them again, there's gonna be trouble."

My clerk called me and woke me up -- I think she may have (accidentally--we'll never know) left out the "call the police" part of that sentence. I called the police and drove over to the hotel, and the police talked to both parties and got them to settle down. I asked the police if the one guest was carrying a weapon, and he said "Legally, I can't ask him that." I was rather inexperienced with firearm laws at the time (I still am), so I wasn't sure what to think. I considered demanding that both parties leave, but at the time, I was more frightened than anything, so I simply just waited until morning to decide what to do next.

The next day, the guest who had the permit came to the desk to check out, and he was very unhappy. I told him "I can't have you making gun threats in my hotel." I'll admit that my choice of words might not have been the best, but I hadn't slept all night, and it was the best I could do. The man then proceeded to tear me a new one for ten minutes about how I was violating his constitutional rights and was making him out to be the villain when he was the victim.

Obviously, there is a lot of potential for bias and misunderstanding in this scenario, and I'm not looking for a bunch of people to automatically take my side, but I'm curious -- what would you have done in this situation? How would you have handled the situation with the police? Was the officer correct in what he told me? (I work in Tennessee.)

 

[SolidChoice]

I should mention that I now have a carry permit of my own and recently bought a S&W 686p, so I think it's fair to say I'm not anti-gun, just anti unpleasant-surprise

 

[MedWheeler]

If he said exactly what you were told he said, that would indeed constitute reason to believe he had made a likely-unwarranted threat. He had no reason to mention the gun, as (supposedly) the only problem he had with the other guests was rowdy behavior.
I was a guest in a motel once, and had a similar crowd in nearby rooms. I never accosted them, nor did I complain. It wasn't long before I no longer had reason to. First, one of them called my room and cussed me out for "checking out my wife". Turns out he was trying to screw with one of his buddies, and rang up the wrong room. Then, a short time later, the biggest of them I'd seen, complete with beer gut and wife-beater, kicked or body-slammed my door. I peered out the window, Magnum in hand, and shouted "breach that door, and you will be shot!" Again, he apparently had the wrong room, and was messing with his buddy. These guys were with an out-of-town paving crew, and had moved into rooms on both sides of mine.
Back to your case: Again, if it went down as you say it did (as you were told it did), you would have been in the right to tell this individual that his comment and demand could easily be interpreted as a threat to escalate the situation into one in which he would then feel he needed his gun, and this is not (in Florida, at least) justifiable, legal, or acceptable. The presence of a lawfully-carried defensive weapon should not be made known until a threat presents itself.

 

[FenderTK421]

I suppose you would have to know if TN is a 'duty to inform' state. As to the officer not being allowed to just ask if the man was armed; that seems odd. Not being there it is hard to speculate, but from your post, the permit holders biggest error seems to be informing you that he had a weapon and intent. No offense, but you yourself seem to come across as a little grating too- 'gun threats'? A threat to do harm is a threat to do harm- truck, knife, baseball bat, towed howitzer... all the same in my opinion. 'Gun threats' probably made you sound like someone with a particular dislike for firearms; perhaps enough so that the permit holder may have prematurely classified you as a member of a group that he has already decided aren't 'friendlies'.

 

[highorder]

Again, if it went down as you say it did (as you were told it did), you would have been in the right to tell this individual that his comment and demand could easily be interpreted as a threat.

Agreed.

2330 is past "rowdy time" and those guests should have been dealt with, but someone making threats with a weapon needs to understand that you CAN'T do that. If a clerk or manager can't make that happen, the police get a turn.

 

[philip964]

Telling some one you have a gun is to me, making a veiled threat. A lame one at that, sort of a "I know karate".

If you don't like who is next door, ask to be moved.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

i don't miss pulling mod weekends

you were in a lose lose. i probably woulda tossed mr "i've got a gun!" if i heard him say it myself or i thought my clerk was credible . and i probably catch heck for tossing him a recorder is your friend

 

[SolidChoice]

Thanks, everyone. I also feel it was a bit of a lose/lose situation. If it happens again, I'll try to avoid offending the gun owner and being a bit more assertive with the police.

 

[Gouranga]

Again, if it went down as you say it did (as you were told it did), you would have been in the right to tell this individual that his comment and demand could easily be interpreted as a threat.
Agreed.

2330 is past "rowdy time" and those guests should have been dealt with, but someone making threats with a weapon needs to understand that you CAN'T do that. If a clerk or manager can't make that happen, the police get a turn.

Ditto. I have a concealed permit and i stay at hotels frequently. I have been in a hotel that had happy hour the same night that 3 mens college soccer teams stayed on my floor. Let's say I had a very heated exchange with the clerk at the front desk, my weapon was never something that was brought up. So I can sympathize with the caller right until he brought up the weapon. At that point, I would have a couple problems with the caller.

First, I know of no state where someone keeping you up all night is a qualifying factor for us of deadly force. His weapon was irrelevant and it simply had no reason to be entered into the discussion by him.

Second, his calling and threatening to use deadly force against a rowdy guest who himself was not threatening his life nor threatening serious injury, constituted a threat and an unwarranted one.

Put in the same position, i would have called the cops on the guest. I would have likely dropped it there. Had he tried to tear me a new one while leaving, I would pretty much have reiterated to him that he has a CCW not a hunting license. if he really was concerned about 2A he would not be one of those who abuse it and give the anti's more ammunition.

 

[wishin]

It sounds to me like his comment was all bluster, aimed at getting hotel management to deal with the rowdy bunch. I hope you told him he was no longer welcome there given his over reaction.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

I hope you told him he was no longer welcome there given his over reaction.
__________________

unless things have changed very few managers could do that and safely get away with it. sop is to send a young/new/sacrificial manager to deal with problem guest initially then if it goes wrong senior manager flies in and makes it all better and is hero. hotels are fun

 

[Fremmer]

Only an idiot would warn you about his pistol. I'm going to guess that in your state, a hotel owes a higher duty of care to guests than a regular business owner owes to a customer. Regardless, calling the police was the prudent thing to do.

 

[Cosmoline]

Can't stand noisy hotel rooms, but actually threatening to kill the rowdy fools is over the line.

 

[Cubes]

A couple of things wrong here - I seriously doubt the police officer couldn't ask if he had a gun, unless some of your state's gun laws are whack. Another thing - his "constitutional rights" to wear a gun ended when he walked into a private business. He had the right to not go in to that business. You as the business owner (or manager, representative, whatev) have the right to kick any one out for whatever reason you like. Imagine trying to walk into the Brady Center in DC with a gun, and then tear them a new one about your constitutional rights to bear arms. How's that gonna go down? Just don't go in! I can't believe that the police wouldn't do anything about that guy, just lean harder on them like you said before. I don't know too many responsible gun owners that would either let their armed status be known without need, or make threats while armed. That will get you in serious trouble down here.

 

[JohnKSa]

Another thing - his "constitutional rights" to wear a gun ended when he walked into a private business.

I don't know how it is in all states, but in TX, if you're in your hotel room you might as well be in your house or apartment from a legal standpoint.

I agree with those who said that it was inappropriate for the irate resident to bring up the topic of firearms.

 

[Cubes]

I don't know how it is in all states, but in TX, if you're in your hotel room you might as well be in your house or apartment from a legal standpoint.

Really? Do you have some proof of that? And I'm not asking to be a jerk or rude, you know how it's hard to read tone of voice on the net. I would really like to know if you have a link or something, I didn't know that. Thanks!

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Angry hotel guest with handgun permit, what would you do?

I worked at a night auditor for a year during college. Many things go on at night that never seemed to happen during the daytime, LOL. Calling the cops was frowned upon by mgmt unless things got out of hand or violent. Loud guests were usually given several verbal warnings and if things didn't get better after 20 minutes or so, then calling the cops for a noise issue might be warranted. It almost never got this far.

HOWEVER, threats of lethal violence, firearms threats, other violent acts, vandalism, all warranted immediate calls to the police FOLLOWED by a call to the manager and we were all instructed on this.

You don't have to agree with what our instructions were, but what you do need to be clear on is that your staff needs to be instructed on what needs to be done. You need to have criteria in place so that when your staff person calls you at home, it isn't that because that person is confused about how to proceed in this sort of situation. This of course goes for a variety of situation types. The idea is to have guidelines in place to better control the situations as best as possible so as to make the lodging experience as pleasant as possible for all of the guests, and safe. When the gun threat was made, that was no longer a safe situation for the clerk, the rowdy guests, or any other guests. The line was crossed and the clerk should have know that this was the case before ever calling you.

Sure, you won't have a manual or guidelines that cover everything, but this sort of event is of the nature that should be readily covered...unless you don't think a guest making threats with a gun constitutes a crisis or emergency situation...

FYI, the guest making the violence threat would have been thrown out. We may or may not have refunded the guest's money, but the guest would not have remained. Losing the income to placate such a guest is nothing like losing the income that comes with the upset guests and bad press resulting from gunfire.

 

[ForumSurfer]

I have a permit to carry a weapon, and if I see them again, there's gonna be trouble

I would have called the police at that point. The rowdy guests should be dealt with, but they obviously weren't. Once someone mentions something like that, all parties our out of line. If the guy is afraid for his life or family, he should have taken whatever steps he felt reasonable to leave the situation or premises, then call the police. If he couldn't safely leave, he should have kept himself and/or his family in his room and called the police about the threatening, rowdy guests. If the "gun permit guy" were in danger, the fact is he should have called the police before you were ever even awakened by your clerk. No reason for you to get involved and risk your life over some drunk people causing a ruckus and some hot head threatening that he has a gun. I would have called the police, then confronted both parties once the police were there with me.

 

[BeerSleeper]

If those were the words he used, he was not threatening to be defensive. He was threatening to be counter-offensive, which is not the same thing. I'd have told him to leave, or be reported as trespassing to the cops.

Isn't there training involved in getting a CCW permit that covers what you can, and cannot legally do with your firearm

 

[MedWheeler]

Cubes, I don't know about Texas, but it is true in Florida. If you are paying to "live" in a place, no matter how temporarily, you are, for purposes of the law, "home."

 

[DeepSouth]

if it happens again, I'll try to avoid offending the gun owner

True Wisdom There.......Couldn't help it.


I would let the cops handle everything I could and and stay out of everyones way as much as possible. Talk more to the cops and less to the customer is what I'm trying to say I guess. I used to have to deal with "the public" in a past job, I do not miss that. 90% of the people I dealt with were a pleasure to deal with but that other 10% can make life miserable.

 

[beatcop]

There's a real simple answer: You folks are checking out NOW!

 

[rondog]

IMO, the gun owner was in the wrong and should have been evicted immediately. That was definitely a threat. He's one of the people that shouldn't be allowed to own guns.

 

[SolidChoice]

Thanks again, everyone. Sadly, this incident was actually my very first introduction to firearm culture. (I grew up in the Chicago area and spent the last eight years in Boston, only moving to Tennessee this past year.) I got my CCW partly to try to understand issues like this better, but the first class I took (school name, rhymes with "CAPPS") didn't help much.

To be fair, most gun owners I have encountered since then have been very reasonable.

 

[rainbowbob]

The man then proceeded to tear me a new one for ten minutes about how I was violating his constitutional rights...

"Constitutional rights" my aching Aunt Fanny.

This asshat has no constitutional right to threaten anyone with a firearm - and it chaps my aching Aunt Fanny to have that document degraded in such fashion.

I agree you should have an established policy for calling the police FIRST and you SECOND.

Since the noisy party's actions had not threatened anything but a good night's sleep - they could have stayed if they complied with an order to ****.

The guy who implied he would shoot someone over a noise issue - and that WAS what he was implying - should have been evicted on the spot with the sincere wish that he find a better night's sleep elsewhere. Regardless of how empty the implied threat may have been - you and your staff should not have to take a chance on finding out.

The police would have likely assisted you in vacating his room if necessary. They may have even been able to find a less than comfortable vacant bunk for him if he persisted.

You should NOT have endured a minute of his spewing vitriol.

For the record I, like most folks, have endured sleep disturbances at motels/hotels - from drunks, dogs, babies, arguing spouses, amorous couples, etc.

Not ONCE did it occur to me to employ a firearm to rectify the situation. I have on occasion complained to the management - and have usually received a discount on my bill for my inconvenience.