Another Isolated Incident...*Because* He Was a (Legal) Gun Owner

[waterhouse]

And there are tons of threads here about "if dogs attack", and the majority of people agree that if attacked by a dog, they would shoot. How does this not apply to a police officer too?

Go read those threads. Almost all of them have to do with a dog meeting a human in a public space, off of a leash. Most people in those threads blame the owner of the dog for not following leash laws.

Those threads typically deal with something completely, 100% different than uninvited people entering your house and shooting your dog. In your house, your dog does not need to be on a leash. In many houses, dogs are trained specifically to alert to strangers.

I asked about standard protocol in dealing with dogs earlier. Surely they have a plan for dealing with animals that tend to not be to happy when uninvited strangers enter the home. Perhaps the plan is just to shoot. I don't know.

 

[Zach S]

Police then searched his house, looking for items stolen from two marked police cars

Llewellyn would not confirm whether the raid was related to the items stolen from police vehicles on Jan. 14, citing an ongoing investigation.

Huh?

 

[Zach S]

And there are tons of threads here about "if dogs attack", and the majority of people agree that if attacked by a dog, they would shoot. How does this not apply to a police officer too?

The difference is that wouldn't break into your house and shoot your dog.

 

[Gungnir]

OK so I have a question.

Assuming I'm at home, and innocently watching TV, and the door gets kicked in. I pick up my trusty firearm and shoot at the door, and it's turns out to be the police. Since they haven't announced themselves, what's the legal situation. If I only fire that one shot since I then realize its the local PD.

Would it be prudent sometime in the near future to inform my local county sheriffs office that I believe in the right to self defense and that if the police invade my home unannounced they may be met with deadly force, until they're identified as LEO's?

Just thinking out loud, on this.

 

[Duke of Doubt]

This real situation was discussed on another thread.

We do not shoot at a door, we shoot at a threat. A door is not a threat.

 

[Frog48]

Assuming I'm at home, and innocently watching TV, and the door gets kicked in. I pick up my trusty firearm and shoot at the door, and it's turns out to be the police. Since they haven't announced themselves, what's the legal situation.

Thats the "catch 21". More than likely, you'll be shot when the officers return fire. If you make it out safely, whether or not you're charged will depend on the circumstances. But I'm not a lawyer.

If you were an innocent victim of police raid gone bad, and you had no prior reason to believe that you would be aggressively contacted by the police, its entirely up to the DA. Some DA's are understanding, some arent. You may or may not be charged with anything ranging from a felony, misdemeanor, or municipal ordinance violation.

However, if you are regularly engaged in criminal activity, a fugitive, or harboring a fugitive, it would be argued that you should have had a reasonable expectation of police contact, and likely charged with attempted murder of a peace officer (or something along those lines).

I'm not saying its right or wrong... but it is what it is.

 

[Jeff White]

These "no-knock" sieges are far more dangerous and far more expensive than just putting the guy under surveillance and scooping him up when he's pretty sure to be unarmed and surrounded by cops instead of accomplices.

You obviously haven't got a clue about what is involved in 24/7 surveillance. Often warrants aren't valid for days and days. Once you receive enough information to justify a warrant, you need to move as quickly as possible before the circumstances change. If you think warrants are easy to get you obviously have never sat in a judges chambers and went over the probable cause. Every judge I ever met asked all kinds of questions about the reliability of the information you had, how long you had known the informant or the exact circumstances that caused you to come up with the information. Once I had to take a witness who was a juvenile in to meet the judge so he could question her himself about the information she provided. Warrants just aren't handed out.

Any members here have any SWAT or raid/no knock warrant type training?

I'm curious as to what the standard protocol is for dealing with dogs.

Yes I have training and personal experience although I have never seen a no knock warrant, they just aren't issued around here. Have made plenty of knock and announce entries though.

There is no "standard protocol" for dealing with dogs. Every situation is looked at individually. No one likes to shoot a dog, but then no one wants to be bitten either. There is no doggie "knock out drug" that you can put into a piece of meat or inject subcutaneously that will quickly and reliably put a dog down. I've seen dog poles like the animal control officers used, I've seen dogs herded or lured into a room and the door shut on them and I've seen one dog that had to be shot.

Moderator Hat On

No knock raids are not on topic here. The only thing that keeps this thread open will be a discussion of if a person is known to be armed is justification for one. The next post that doesn't follow these guidelines and the thread will be closed. We aren't going to have 150+ posts ranting about things that are off topic.

 

[mgkdrgn]

It makes me wonder how many people here actually understand that a police raid isn't supposed to be enjoyable. Perhaps I'll suggest tossing rose petals and kittens to everyone in the house.

Lets hope that you understand that when it's your door being kicked in at 3 am, and your dogs lying dead on the floor ... if you're lucky.

 

[mgkdrgn]

OK so I have a question.

Assuming I'm at home, and innocently watching TV, and the door gets kicked in. I pick up my trusty firearm and shoot at the door, and it's turns out to be the police. Since they haven't announced themselves, what's the legal situation.

The "legal" situation is that you are going to be dead, and there won't be any legal situation that you will need to be worried about.

 

[Dravur]

It makes me wonder how many people here actually understand that a police raid isn't supposed to be enjoyable. Perhaps I'll suggest tossing rose petals and kittens to everyone in the house.

I wonder if the Jews thought the same thing as the germans did the same thing to them.

What part of Gestapo do you not get?

 

[Zach S]

We do not shoot at a door, we shoot at a threat. A door is not a threat.

Here in NC, you can use deadly force against someone kicking your door in (NCGS 14‑51.1).

Oddly enough, once the intruder is inside, standard deadly force laws apply, however with no duty to retreat.

 

[Flyboy]

I too have strayed, but the original topic is that (assuming the quotation is reasonably accurate) the police are now using the mere fact of gun ownership as an excuse for a no-knock raid.

Given that many of us deliberately keep firearms close to hand for home defense, and given that the ninja tactics are specifically designed to cause confusion and disorientation to the subject, what are the implications to the roughly 1/3 of the population who own guns, and in particular those of us who have permits (and are thus on official record as reasonably believed to own firearms)?

Does this give anybody else the chills? Does it affect your plans for dealing with intruders?

 

[Duke of Doubt]

I still think it was bad reporting. The no-knock was based on the suspicion, hopefully reasonable, that the stepson had stolen and possessed a police rifle and was present in the stepfather's home, not that the stepfather was believed to possess guns.

 

[Zach S]

Does it affect your plans for dealing with intruders?

Not really, but I live so far out the police have to stop and ask for directions. And due to the layout of the properties around me, and my driveway, I get a pretty good heads up on who's coming.

 

[JImbothefiveth]

I think they though he had a stolen rifle.








If you heard someone breaking in to your home, how would you make sure it wasn't police? Maybe shout out "the cops are on their way"?

 

[rbernie]

Do they ordinarily call out the tac team when checking on potential sightings of stolen cars?

Of course not, says a voice from the back.

OK.

What if the car was in a garage? Would it THEN be OK to roll the tac team?

Let's make it harder - what if it was a police car in the garage (sans firearms)? Would it be OK under THOSE circumstances to roll the tac team?

 

[Davek1977]

Yet another cop bashing thread

This isn't cop bashing...its calling into question the need for such warrants when the only thing the person has done wrong is own a firearm( no crimes have been proven at this point whatsoever). Its a valid concern, and not cop-bashing in the least. I think its entirely OK to question the actions of the police. It isn't "copbashing" every time someone calls into question the actions of law enforcement, because, believe it or not, they DO screw up too, badly at times, sometimes to the point of costing innocent lives. I feel its mnot only OK, but our DUTY to discuss such matters. I'll never bash cops as a group, but individual police actions can and most certainly SHOULD be questioned if they seem overkill or completely unnecessary. If the police ever have reason to wan to talk to me, I hope they don't do it by kicking in my door with a SWAT team just because I own multiple firearms. Theres better ways of going about such things.

 

[riverdog]

There was an "oops, wrong house" shooting incident in San Diego County where an innocent homeowner shot at the home invaders and received return fire. IIRC he shot an SD County Deputy in the thigh and he received multiple hits in the upper body -- he survived to sue the County and the other agencies involved in the entry. He was laying in bed during the exchange. I can't remember who bungled the investigation, DEA was involved and on scene. His lawsuit was successful, unspecified sum.

 

[mgkdrgn]

For anyone that thinks this is a "once in a blue moon" scenario ....

http://www.cato.org/raidmap/

... I only wish that were so.

 

[riverdog]

Good link. The raid I referred to is the one on:

Donald Carlson

On August 26, 1992, federal drug agents conduct a late-night raid at the San Diego-area home of Donald Carlson. Carlson awakes, frightened, and assumes the agents are unlawful intruders. He fires two shots at the door to ward them off. . . .snip. . .

In 1994, Carlson won a $2.75 million settlement against the federal government. . . .snip

 

[powwow1]

what your not understanding is that step son of Mike Hasenei was the one beleived to have stolen the guns. The son hadn't changed his address on his identification card and so they took action and busted into his home thinking his son still lived there. I'm friends with this family and i'm certain it's a set up.

 

[powwow1]

dumbbb

 

[DMF]

For anyone that thinks this is a "once in a blue moon" scenario ....
http://www.cato.org/raidmap/

... I only wish that were so.

Once in a blue? Would an error rate of approximately 0.1% qualify as "once in a blue moon?"

The first time the CATO/Radley Balko "raid map" and editorial were presented here, I did a little quick math:



http://www.cato.org/index.html

"Cato is also releasing an interactive raid map that plots nearly 300 examples of mistaken raids since the mid-1980s, including 40 cases in which in innocent people have been killed, 20 cases in which offenders with no history of violence were killed, and 22 cases resulting in the needless death or injury of a police officer."

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=6476

"These increasingly frequent raids, 40,000 per year by one estimate . . . "

Let's look at what these numbers really tell us. (assuming Balko hasn't "fudged" the numbers which is quite possible considering his penchant for distorting the truth to fit his agenda.)

Assuming the 40,000 per year number is only for recent years, let's assume it averages to 15,000 raids a year since the mid 80s. That's 300,000 raids in the last 20 years.

300 mistaken raids means a 0.1% error rate. No person, or group of people is perfect, but that error rate is pretty damn close.

Further, how many of these raids were actually knock and announce where the occupants refused service of the warrant, and the officers were required to use force to enter the premises? How many were NOT served by a tactical team, but by everyday officers/agents doing their jobs?

Unfortunately many folks, including people participating in this thread, equate any forced entry with a "no knock" warrant, and a SWAT team. However, that is far from the truth. Look how many people were screaming about SWAT over the warrant in Alanta last week, but it was NOT a SWAT team that served that warrant. I've also seen many people on this forum get wound up about a no-knock warrant in other threads, when in reality it was a knock and announce where the occupants refused to admit the officers to serve the warrant, so the officers had to force entry.

I'm not asking anyone to ignore the ALLEGED 300 errors, I'm merely pointing out how very low the error rate really is.

Also, if you want a zero error rate then you must want the police to NEVER serve a warrant, because that is the only way to get the error rate to zero. If that is what you want then you are asking for anarchy.

 

[gripper]

In no way does what I am about to say mean that I think it should be open season on LEOs in general...but if you force MY door and kill MY dog;may God have mercy on you ....because I won't.

 

[Maelstrom]

In no way does what I am about to say mean that I think it should be open season on LEOs in general...but if you force MY door and kill MY dog;may God have mercy on you ....because I won't.

In no way does what I'm about to say mean that I think it should be open season on young girls, but I really love pedophilia.

But it's O.K. that I love pedophilia because I just said that I don't condone it.

Sort of like saying you don't condone killing cops and then immediately following that up with stating you're going to kill cops.

Not that that ever happens around here.

Nope.

Never.