Another situational question.

[reagansquad]

Say a theif is stealing the stereo out of my car in Washington State... I go out to confront him, not attack him, just yell and take his picture to try and get him to run off, etc. If he comes out of the car with a knife/gun and charges/points it at me, is that considered a self defense situation, or should I truck it like crap back into the house?

What if I did decide to use physical force to stop him from doing whatever it was he's doing to my car, i.e. punch him in the face or wrestle him, and he pulls a gun/knife/sword/bazooka/thermo-nuclear weapon?

 

[WT]

1. Run

2. Run faster.

 

[Werewolf]

If he comes out of the car with a knife/gun and charges/points it at me, is that considered a self defense situation

As one poster put it in another thread - BANG!

This situation most definitely meets the criteria of opportunity, means and intent.

Of course if in WA one has a duty to retreat then it may not be a good shoot in the eyes of some pinko, bleeding heart liberal DA who would claim you should have run screaming and bleating like a sheep into your home, barred the doors and headed for the nearest closet to quiver and quake in fear all the while waiting for your heroes in blue to arrive and clean up the mess (and there would be a mess because the 1/2 hour it would take them to finish up dinner and get to your home would be plenty of time for the BG to enter your home and violently finish the job he started prior to being so rudely interupted by you the home owner).

Or one of the aforementioned misguided liberal types might want to make a claim that you escalated the situation by confronting the poor mistreated BG just trying to make a living in our oh so oppresive, foot of the man on the necks of the socially downtrodden society.

In other words it pretty much depends on where you live as to whether or not you'd be correct in a judgement that involved sending the BG to his just deserts in HELL!

 

[Jim March]

Bang.

See, there's a LOT of cases where it's perfectly legal to issue a verbal challenge.

If you're acting legally when attacked with deadly force, you're in good shape.

Another example of the same sort of thing is when somebody is being attacked. A verbal challenge can rapidly sort out "who is who". Say a guy is grappling somebody to the ground on a subway platform. You shout out "what's going on here, I'm calling the police". One possibility: the guy doing the grappling shouts out "undercover transit police" and holds up a badge. OK, hang back and observe. Guy screams something profane and pulls a knife, that's something else, ain't it?

But the same concept works on property crimes.

 

[Bob F.]

Nice thing about vehicles- they have doors! Seriously, imagine a leg or two sticking out as the BG works on the radio; how hard can you jump against the door? Go back inside and call 911:"There's somebody screaming bloody murder out in the street." Change clothes and wait. Course, make sure he doesn't have a buddy.

Stay safe.
Bob

 

[George S.]

You might want to read RCW 9A.16 here: http://www.leg.wa.gov/RCW/index.cfm?fuseaction=chapterdigest&chapter=9A.16 to find out what rights you would have for self-defense in the situation you describe.

The use of deadly force could be questionable in that situation. RCW 9A.16.040 has the text of the law regarding deadly force or "Justifiable Homicide".

Personally, I would not confront a thief in that situation. If the crime was clearly visible, then I would call 911 and let the LEO's handle it. A pic would be great especially if you had a telephoto lens!! The cost of a radio is not worth the risk potential and either your auto or homeowners insurance would cover the loss.

 

[Werewolf]

The cost of a radio is not worth the risk potential and either your auto or homeowners insurance would cover the loss.

Man - I am so sick of hearing this.

Will insurance cover your loss of pride at being robbed? Will it cover the feelings you have of being violated. Will it cover the feelings you have of not having any control over what happens to you?

I know a woman who was raped. When I described how I felt she told me that that was very much like she felt during and after the incident. Now I don't equate the two. Her experience was much worse than that of myself and my family but I believe her when she says it is similar.

I ask again - will insurance make those bad feelings go away? NO! Only time will take care of that. I know - my home has been broken into 3 times in the last 10 years. My cars twice. I felt the way I described above each time.

Don't anyone bother saying move. I live in a very nice neighborhood so moving isn't going to solve the problem.

Come on all you insurance weenies - tell us - what's gonna solve the problem? What's gonna keep scum from robbing law abiding citizens?

To those that say a man's life is worth more than a car radio I say BS. Scum decides what their life is worth when they decide to violate the rules of society. They take their chances and live or die - as the case may be - with the consequences.

 

[neoncowboy]

"I ask again - will insurance make those bad feelings go away? NO! Only time will take care of that. I know - my home has been broken into 3 times in the last 10 years. My cars twice. I felt the way I described above each time."

If I'm reading you straight, it sounds like you are saying that killing the guy would be better, since if you kill him you don't have to live with the feelings of having been violated.

Is that what you're saying?

Is it worth someone's LIFE (even a bad guy's) to protect a stupid car stereo?

More practically, is it worth the risk? The risk that you miss and he shoots you. The risk that you miss and kill an innocent bystander. Shooting guns in a parking lot invites ALL KINDS of risk!

Even more practically, we're told over and over again that even a good shoot is going to ruin our life...we'll be run through the wringer defending ourselves in civil court even after we're cleared of criminal charges (which, in this situation, would probably not be so easily dismissed). Now, are you willing to go through ALL OF THAT civil lawsuit bs just to avoid the feeling of being violated?

I understand the desire to affect the situation, to take decisive action to end crime and violence once and for all. Believe me, my vindictive streak runs deep. I just am beginning to recognize that using lethal force comes with all kinds of not insignificant consequences...I'd have a hard time justifying bringing those consequences onto myself and my family all for the sake of a petty burglary or car break in.

"To those that say a man's life is worth more than a car radio I say BS."

Um, yeah...whatever.

*MY* life...my sanity...my family's peace...my staying out of expensive lawsuits...my not liquidating everything I won to defend myself in court. THOSE are worth more to me than a stupid car stereo.

I can reduce crime all kinds of ways that don't have anything to do with shooting criminals (mentor at risk kids, vote for leaders tough on crime, neighborhood watch, citizens patrol, police/sheriff reserve unit, etc)

 

[Standing Wolf]

Bang, bang. Bang, bang.

 

[George S.]

The "cost" of a radio or anything left in your car is not worth the life of the thief. I cannot see how using deadly force to stop a robbery or burglary will help me feel better. There may be a state or two where you can use force to portect personal property, but WA is not one of them.

Sure, I would be upset if I lost something to a thief (and have) , and if I caught him in the act, he might be "detained" and he might even trip over a rake in the process or fall down on a rock and hit his head really hard. Thieves are petty criminals and while stupid in the higest degree, their being stupid is not a reason to use extreme predujice in dealing with one.

Now, if said thief did in fact turn and point his own gun at me or pull a knife, then the bets are off. He is in really deep doo-doo at that point. And most police and prosecutors would have no problem with that, assuming it could be easily proven it was him against me for keeps.

As mentioned, rape or assault is an entirely different story. Sadly, some rapes and assualts have a horrible way of turning deadly. And for that, the criminal should expect the potential for deadly force being used against him. But being stupid, they probably do not understand that and if somebody is willing to defend themselves against the possibility of being killed, then the BG should understand that his life is probably in jeapordy.

I have lost some things out of my car and even had an entire set of wheels and tires stolen. Violated? No, but highly pizzed off at the time and that lasted for awile and I was pretty suspicious of strangers in the area for a long time. Even though that was many years ago, I still keep an eye out for people walking around that I do not know or have not seen before. It was a real inconvience to have to get replacements, but I did manage to get it done that day.

 

[Web]

Amen Werewolf.

 

[shooter1]

Let's see---------don't confront a BG who's in the process of comitting a crime-------.Sure would make the BG's job easier. Naw, that doesn't work for me. I would be inclined to "detain" the BG until the LEOs arrive. If he runs, I have to let him go as use of deadly force is not legal. If he chooses to confront me, well-------someone's going to get hurt. Eveyone has to understant that there are consquences for their actions, and individually, we alone are responsible for our actions.
str1

 

[Edward429451]

Thieves are petty criminals and while stupid in the higest degree, their being stupid is not a reason to use extreme predujice in dealing with one.

So where do we draw the line? Criminals are socially acceptable now? We have to to yield to criminal action? If you give a mouse a cookie, he'll want a glass of milk. "Excuse me sir, but please get out of my vehicle and leave my stereo alone"??

The judicial system will not teach them a lesson that will make them stop crime. They will protect them, and if the citizen takes (appropriate) action, they will protect them even more by prosecuting the citizen!

The first rule of survival: Don't tease the animals. If the criminal has no fear of retribution or consequenses...whats he going to think when you come out being a wonderfully politically correct citizen asking him if he would have mercy on you a poor hapless citizen? He's going to be laughing his way all the way home. Hope he didn't see the pretty wife sticking her head out to see what was going on, he may decide to up the ante on his return trip.

It's not just about a car stereo. There's a dynamic mindset bubbling below the de facto statutes that's imperetive that we perceive, and do our part to discourage lest we lose the last picket of the white fence that is the illusion of our lives. We cannot remain neutral in the face of evil intent. Thats lunacy. What are we? Spoils of war standing on the sidelines waiting to see if we go to the criminals or the new world order?

Werewolf nailed it.

Screw the law. Thats problem #2. Screw the criminals. I'd rather be sitting in jail knowing that the criminal is either dead or knowing that he almost was and wont return to further molest my family because he got the message that he could have died for a car stereo, than being at work wondering if the criminal is at my home doing god knows what to my wife or family because I encouraged him by being so damned politically correct that I wouldn't take a stand for what is right.

You (might) not have to shoot him over a car stereo, but you sure could send him the right message. Who's more afraid of the law than the realization that you let your family (or commuinity) down and might even have set them up for future and possibly more extreme violations by sending the wrong message to the scum and encouraging them to cross more lines...? Don't tease the animals. I can't say that I'd definitly shoot the guy as that would be situational. I would damn sure engage the guy in confrontation though. Wether or not he'd be shot would be totally up to him.

The only thing needed for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

 

[iamhistory]

Werewolf, if I were a gay man I'd kiss you for what you said.

Preach on brother.

I had an incident in the communist city of D.C. a few years back as two model citizens attempting to rob us, pulled a machete on me & my wife and tried to cut my freakin head off..........I would have shot the p.o.s. and I automatically reached back to draw and felt nothing. I thought "oh s***, no gun" (since I was obeying their ridiculous and Unconstitutional bs laws) and I had to get ready to fight or die.

It was over in a matter of about a minute and for the rest of the night and still today (that was about 7 years ago) I ran it through my mind angry about being violated like that and knowing that those pricks were probably out the next night doing it again. I will say this, at the moment he pulled the machete and demanded my wallet, I made up my mind he wasn't getting it. He didn't.

Hey RS...........I've read several of your posts about some of the situations you find yourself in. In some of those, I would have dropped them and eaten a bowl of cornflakes without a second thought. However, in this particular situation of your car being robbed..........as big as you are?????? Beat the piss out of the dirtbag and teach him a lesson.

 

[Fred Fuller]

SO the law will not touch criminals. Ooooooookay.

Try shooting one in a situation that is not absolutely clear cut justifiable, and see how much the law will touch YOU, Mr. Former Noncriminal. It ain't about you and your violated feelings, it's about you being in court, in the newspaper headlines, in jail, sued, broke and no telling what else. You think having your car radio or hubcaps ripped off makes you feel violated, try a serious interaction with our "legal system." Some people here seriously need to go spend a week in a courtroom and get an education.

Unless you know of a source for 'get out of jail free' cards you better look for ways NOT to have to shoot some thug.

lpl/nc

 

[tyme]

Looking for ways not to shoot some thug has to be balanced against not letting any idiot who feels like it steal your property.

Either you let people steal your property or you take the risk that you'll have to defend yourself. Personally, the only property I care about enough to defend against theft would be at risk only during a burglary, which itself is justification to use lethal force.

What if you keep a rifle in the trunk? Are you still going to let a thief dig through your car without confronting him?

 

[Andrew Rothman]

I'd rather be sitting in jail knowing that the criminal is either dead or knowing that he almost was and wont return to further molest my family because he got the message that he could have died for a car stereo....

And I'd rather lose my car stereo (until my insurance replaces it) than lose my freedom and become the wife of Bubba the Inmate.

We all make choices, I guess. Good luck with yours.

 

[82DABN]

Situation #1 - Your intent was to "go out, take pictures, and yell...", The first question the DA will ask is where does the film and flash go on that pistol you shot him with ???

Situation #2 - You are going to confront a man stealing a car stereo out of your car, in your driveway. You walk up to him, he attacks with a dangerous weapon/implement, you draw your weapon and shoot...What was your intent when you established the decision to advance on this perp ? To make him scurry, or make him die of lead poisoning ?

Can you justify not calling 911 (dial-a-prayer) and handling the situation on your own ? Especially having the prior mental planning in place to grab a firearm ?

Would the reasonable man (or twelve of your "peers") be made to believe that the action, or course of action that you took , was "REASONBABLE AND PRUDENT" and therefore justifiable ?

All this and more in the 10th of an adrenalized second that you get from mother nature.

Here is what I recommend;

Get on line, go to a police supply or hunting/wilderness site. Once there, go to the aerosol restraint / bear repellent section and buy the big ass, "fire extinguisher" sized can of OC. You know the one that shoots a 5 foot cone of gas twenty five feet ? Take it from one who has used the stuff extensively since it's inception. Great stuff...Turn the poor P.O.S. into a giant Cheetoh with the stuff and let him go stumbling down the road screaming and falling...your local PD will love you and so will your spouse when you don't withdraw ten grand the next day for a retainer fee...

You can always carry the hog leg as a "last ditch, defensive tool carried to preclude certain death or serious bodily injury..."

Happy Hosing...

 

[reagansquad]

You sir are a GENIOUS. 5 foot wall of beer spray turning a stereo theif into a cheetoh! I will be buying a can just for this occasion.

 

[Ozendorph]

It's odd. Some of the responses in this thread don't match up with the initial question. Nobody asked if it's okay to shoot someone for stealing a car sterio. The question is whether it's a good idea to make a verbal challenge, and whether one has a right to defend themselves if the would-be theif draws a weapon and attacks.

I would absolutely make some sort of verbal challenge. Maybe that makes me stupid or foolish, but I see yelling at someone as a perfectly normal response to them stealing my stuff. That stuff costs money, and I work for my money. I sure as heck wasn't working those days so some other clown could enjoy the fruits of my labor.

I live in CA, and I don't have the option to draw and fire on someone threatening me with a weapon (well, I suppose I DO have that option, but the law wouldn't be on my side). I think we're supposed to die, if I'm reading our local laws correctly. However, if you have that option available to you, is there more appropriate time to exercise it than this? The man is trying to kill you. Grab some cover and let him have it.

You know your society is going screwy when you even have to ask about stuff like this.

 

[neoncowboy]

I guess I'm guilty there...I just re-read all of the posts, especially the ones I replied to. The first read, I read 'I'd go out and shoot someone stealing my stereo'...not what was written, my bad.

Certainly, 'what the f#$% are you doing?' is a valid response to finding someone rifling through your car. If calling them out on it escalates into a violent force situation, then you're confronted with how you deal with them.

As far as I know, being confronted with deadly force is exactly the type of situation the CCW laws were invented for. If threatening someone with a weapon isn't grounds for draw/shoot, I can't imagine what is.

 

[Werewolf]

From a purely Devil's Advocate point of view:

As far as I know, being confronted with deadly force is exactly the type of situation the CCW laws were invented for. If threatening someone with a weapon isn't grounds for draw/shoot, I can't imagine what is.

Assume the situation as described by the original poster and you do shoot and kill the robber who did in fact point a gun at you. IMO an anti-gun liberal DA could make a very good case for escalation. You were in your house and you could have retreated to your home and called the police rather than leave the safety of your home to confront the miscreant and kill him (albeit in self defense). In states with a duty to retreat I'd bet a sizeable amount of money that that would in fact be the case and the property owner would be charged at a minimum with manslaughter.

In states with no duty to retreat it is still very possible that a sharp DA could make a reasonable case that the robber did not have to die and only did because the shooter escalated the event into one with lethal results do to the confrontation. Again manslaughter.

To the best of my knowledge the only state with a law that permits the use of lethal force by a property owner to protect that property is Texas and that is only legit at night.

The situation as described by the original poster is borderline at best even when one considers the miscreant is armed and threatened the home owner simply because the home owner made a conscious decision to leave the safety of his/her home and confront the miscreant.

I'm no lawyer but that's my story and I'm stickin' to it!

 

[82DABN]

The situation that was written in to start this thread gets the shooter 3 to 5 (a 1/3 to serve) and a mountain of civil litigation bills and payouts if it plays out such as;

" Hey, what are you (bang!), doing in my (bang!) gosh darn (bang!) car ?!?!?! (bang!bang!bang!) "Ooops, Officer, I swear I thought that was a chinese throwing star in his hands not my Bocelli CD !!!! "

 

[Ozendorph]

I won't argue the legality of the matter (hardly my forte'), but I find it alarming that someone could be faulted for verbally asking someone else to stop stealing their possessions. What the heck is that about?

I had never considered "professional thief" as a valid career choice, but this thread is making a heck of a case for it.

 

[reagansquad]

When I made the original post, I meant exactly what I said.

"Hey! Get away from my car. Quit stealing my stereo."

Bad guy gets out of car, chases yelling victim with a knife or gun.

a) victim runs
b) victim shoots

...I like the idea of not talking, just hosing the theif with bear spray.