Any point in guns for self defence?

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when i say concealed weapon carrier, i don't mean someone with a CCW license, i mean anyone with a concealed weapon.

You may find this shocking, but there are some states where no license is required for legal concealed carry: Vermont and Alaska, I believe. It's a beautiful thing, and you are /far/ more safe in those two states than in areas like New York City or Washington, D.C.

In Vermont, you can stick it under your coat and go. The law does not care, so long as you act responsibly. There has not been a problem with "jumpy people" pulling out guns needlessly. It's an oft-cited concern among political groups interested in prohibiting carry, but in reality, it is extremely unlikely.
 
"This sentence by Sasnofear should have told everyone what kind of person he is.
== "i bet some of the people here got loaded up after the washington sniper, haha, the thought of it."==
I dont remember it being a laughing matter."



I never said the actions of the WS was funny, however what is funny is that Americans would deam a good idea is to get CCW seeing as the whole princable was that he was remaining unseen, so what would be the point of a CCW when you are dead against an unseen criminal. like i also mentioned whats the point of arming up against these 'imaginary' terrorists that would seek out individual americans?

but i see your point how europe is so rubbish, wait didn't england take over america for many, many years until it was economically unwise to stay there? what use was americans with guns then. they finally do their war of independance thing, and then what do they do....the american civil war....and americans are happily ever after killing each other till this day. what a nice storie.
 
however, perhaps because of my different world view coming from being brought up in a relatively "safe" environment, i can't see the need to carry concealed weapons for defence purposes.

Ossie,

The beautiful thing is, noone else needs to recognize or acknowledge the need. I used to get the question alot when people would find out I support the right of others to carry a firearm for self-defense: "Why do you need a gun?"

My usual response has been: "Who said anything about need? I have the right to defend my life, a right to carry a weapon for self-defense, and a constitutional right to do so - both at the federal and state level."

(Pennsylvania has a more explicit "right to keep and bear arms" clause in its state constitution, to the effect of "the right of an individual to keep and bear arms for defense of themselves and the state shall not be questioned." The U.S Constitution's 2nd Amendment is contested by some quarters.)

The vast majority of gun owners are sane, rational folks. The ones you hear about in the news causing problems should also not be allowed to drive vehicles, own pointy sticks, vote, or breed - but their failures are not justification to strip the vast majority of their firearms.

I really feel bad for people in the UK. Your government has a jealous hold on the use of force and seems unwilling to recognize your legitimate right to self-defense. That said, praise God for Irish women and drinks!
 
Beren: You may find this shocking, but there are some states where no license is required for legal concealed carry: Vermont and Alaska, I believe. It's a beautiful thing, and you are /far/ more safe in those two states than in areas like New York City or Washington, D.C.

being "/far/ more safe" in those two states is your opinion, but i assume that you'd be able to back that up with statistics. i also imagine that their is less inclination for violent crime in alaska compared to the vibrant city that is new york, big cities attract violent crime. sure, there's violent crime in alaska, and other non-city places, but i'm sure there's a lot less.
 
wait didn't england take over america for many, many years until it was economically unwise to stay there?

sasnofear - Either you've been reading a revised form of history or you need to find an unbiased version of early American history. You make it sound like they chose to leave. The English didn't take over America, in essence they founded it in large part. Not fighting tooth and nail to keep America under the crown, was the most serious economical blunder England ever committed, and they committed quite a few.
 
i dont know about Vermont but your quoteing alaska as safe due to CCW who is there to rob!!!! you compare Alaska to most other state i hardly think you can compare due to population difference and the actuall oppertunitys to crime

"There has not been a problem with "jumpy people" pulling out guns needlessly. " ha good one. do we need to talk about iraq and supposedly well trained american, civilian and allie killers ,'cough' i mean soldiers
 
sure, there's violent crime in alaska, and other non-city places, but i'm sure there's a lot less.

It's true, crime as a whole is lower in Alaska and Vermont. Violent crime and ownership of firearms is not directly related. However, my point was that uncontrolled concealed carry of firearms has not /harmed/ the situation any.
 
"There has not been a problem with "jumpy people" pulling out guns needlessly. " ha good one. do we need to talk about iraq and supposedly well trained american, civilian and allie killers ,'cough' i mean soldiers

It would be equally relevant to wonder why I cannot find an orange that tastes like an apple. The conduct of civilian gun owners going about their daily lives of commerce and socializing bears little in common with the activities of a soldier conducting patrols in a hostile area. Soldiers go /looking/ for trouble. That's their job - find trouble, and make sure it won't cause trouble for anyone else.

The role of a civilian gun owner is far different. We /avoid/ trouble and only employ lethal force when we absolutely must to protect our lives, or those of innocents.
 
Mal H - yea your right there but what a great country it was to be able to found and take over countries and having vast colonies in comparison to its small size and the fact that it was actually in a position to make so many blunders and yet remain be the most powerful nation in the world
 
sasnofear, you asked RikWriter, (BTW, hi Rik...),
RikWriter - Note: I never said things didn't happen, just not often and did the guy trying to get into your house try to shoot you?

These sort of things happen more often than you realize...and happen in 'nice', 'safe' neighborhoods.

I have also foiled an attempted break in at my home. I was alone in the house with our 6 children as my husband was out of state working at the time.

I did not have to fire a shot, and for that I am thankful. Harshly spoken words out a window and the sound of a 12ga being racked was all it took to make the bad guys go away.

However, I would not want to wait to find out the intentions of uninvited visitors at that ungodly hour (2:30am) with the lives of my children in potential danger. What loving mother would?

I did not loose my cool and just start shooting...heck, I didn't even break a sweat.

Another story I am personally aware of is one where my friend prevented an armed stalker from kidnapping her. She was not 'jumpy' in her quick response to her would be assailant. No shots were fired and the BG was caught less than a mile away. (The only reason he got away at all was that he slid down a hill as soon as she drew her pistol and she wasn't about to shoot a fleeing man.)

These two stories are not isolated incidents. There are far more real stories of legally owned firearms saving lives than there are of them taking them. Unfortunately, these stories aren't as glamorous as the stories of the BGs with the 'guns'...the stories where the 'good guy' wins just don't seem to sell...pity.

Have you ever been to the States? If not, I would suggest, if it is at all possible, that you come for a visit and stay long enough to really experience life here. Spend some time with responsible firearm owners. Spend some time in some of our larger cities as well as our rural areas. Otherwise, you may never be able to really appreciate why it is we cherish our RKBA in this country.

Best to you...

Mary
 
Guys, could we please not allow this thread to turn into a debate on the relative merits of the UK v. the USA or the proper usage of potatoes? ;)
 
american soldiers come from all of american society so representing civilians after all the only differance between a soldier and civilian is training, the mental make up remains the same. theres a difference for looking for other soldiers to kill (no, no you kill iraqi solders not british) their jumpyness and willingness to shoot anything that move reflects on american civilians
 
Mal H - yea your right there but what a great country it was to be able to found and take over countrys and having vast coloneys in comparisance to its small size and the fact that it was actually in a position to make so many blunders and yet remain be the most powerful nation in the world


Can we keep it on-topic, please? :rolleyes:
 
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http://www.census.gov/

Per the US Census, Vermont has a violent crime rate of 105 incidents per 100,000 citizens or 0.1%.

Of the 50 states in the USA, that gives them a ranking of 49/50.

Alaska's rate is much higher, at 588 incidents per 100,000, or 0.58%.

However, these statistics are taken from the 2001 Census. Vermont's open policy towards concealed carry has been in effect for quite some time.

Alaska's law, however, was just instituted a little over 4 months ago, so it is not yet possible to determine if the new law has had an effect on violent crime one way or the other.

However, there has been a trend in the last decade or two of states liberalizing their concealed carry laws.

Interestingly enough, even though gun ownership levels are at an all-time high in the United States, both violent crime and negligent/accidental deaths involving firearms have been dramatically declining.
 
Mal H - hey sorry but england is the most successfull country of all time and produces the best fighting soldier in the world, though going to beren's point lets not let this slide to UK vr's USA

marvl- you have written one post from what i can see i have written so many tonight so that is rubbish and I am actually dyslexic so couple the two together and you are certianly going to get bad spelling from me tonight so live with it.
 
Marvl: True, so very true. What a shame though, that you didn't take a greater interest in spelling and dentistry

what is it with this myth that people from over here have bad teeth? i just don't understand it.

i have had no brace/retainer or fillings for cavities and my teeth are in perfect condition. absolutely no problems.

how many americans can say they've never had a retainer or fillings?
 
Better to have and not need, then to need and not have. Sure the chances may be slim but ask the same questions to victims or their loved ones and see how they felt about playing the odds. I agree a concealed carry is no guarantee, but when it comes to safety, where do you compromise?
 
IMO this thread is a waste of bandwidth.

You guys (both sides of the pond) need to define your frames of reference and start speaking the same language. sasnofear and ossie really need to research the facts before making statements which are blatantly wrong. I'm done here.
 
I for one am glad we're not part of the UK anymore.......I am proud and happy to live in a country where we have the God given right to defend ourselves.......I carry because I have a family.Their safety is my job.I hope I never have to use it........but what if I did and didn't have it??????
Maybe we're seen as a bunch of yahoos...good...just don't pi$$ us off...:cool:
 
Firstly: Sasnofear and Ossie -- I get the distinct impression that I've offended you with my previous posts, and that was not my intention. I have been suffering BAD migraine headaches non-stop for the last few weeks (including today), and it tends to put me in a bad mood. Forgive me, please. I mean no malice.

if europe ever becomes as violent as the US, then perhaps i'll be more encouraged to carry, but i just don't know.

in my opinion "the old world" still has some things to teach "the new"

Well, keep in mind that statistics can be misleading. What a person experiences in an area, whether it is a "good area" or a "bad area" can be starkly different depending on the person. For instance, Washington D.C. has (and has had for a long time) one of the highest crime rates in the U.S. I have been there, and I might as well have been on a deserted island as far as crime went. My hometown has about 30,000 people, and I have seen a lot more happen in a day in my town that I have in the 2 weeks I spent in Wash-DC. I know it's a rough analogy, but do you see what I mean?

One person could walk through D.C. and it'd be like a stroll in the park, but another person in the same situation may have his life in danger. But what's more, the first person may be in danger the next day, but the second person may not. Can you see how both people could benefit by having a concealed pistol with them? In something like 70% of all encounters, the mere sight of a firearm is enough to make the cretins tuck tail and run.

Can I suggest something? I don't mean this in any sort of degrading way, either: Tomorrow, try judging people for what they DO, not what they COULD do.

Aside from those points, I think I can kind of see what your views are and where they come from, but please understand that you are pretty much preaching to the choir. We at THR are generally a very safe, very peaceful, very polite bunch. The ones you take issue with are the ones that don't bother even learning safety.

...their jumpyness and willingness to shoot anything that move reflects on american civilians.

Sorry, but I just couldn't let this go. I don't know where you're getting this all from, but it is a war. People tend to get jumpy when they're being shot at and having human bombs run at them. And yes, wars tend to cause people to die. That's a rock hard fact.

Let me set it straight for you right here, right now: Americans, whether they be soldiers or civilians, are not trigger happy hillbillies. The things you see on the news represent a fraction of a fraction of us. I can guarantee you that if you were to come shooting with my friends and I, it would be uneventful as far as "accidents" go. Generally it is the new shooter that presents the hazard anyway, and I would perform a full-on football tackle on the new shooter if I saw them do anything to endanger the other shooters. Safety is something I take seriously. I am also proud of the fact that I've never killed anybody, and that I don't shoot anything that moves... and neither has/does anyone that I know.

FWIW,
Wes

P.S. -- up until I year ago, I never had a filling in my life. I have one now. I also have "perfect bite," which means that I will never need braces, to answer your question. :D
 
ok I'll accept in war there are 'special' circumstances compared to civilian life however maby your media has sheilded you from just how much American soldiers have blown away civilian and british troops.

TonyB- america never invaded by the 'United Kingdom' it an 'English' invasion, read a few more history books. Also if people did piss americans of what would happen, would america send their 3rd rate army on them? I seriously doubt US army could stand up to any modern army like UK, germany etc
 
I know one time we definatly killed a lot of British troops........the Revolutionary War...........I know I'm the fat dumb American...sorry:rolleyes:
 
TonyB- yea, it took you long enough and all! not to mention the fact that america was invaded for a substantial amount of time before anything was done about it, not to mention that america was so far from the UK as regard to getting supplys/ reinforcments over and they were using sailing boats to get there quite an achivment that they were there in the first place not to mention keep it for the time they did while having control of many many more colonies elsewhere, which is why they decided it was in their best interests to leave for colonies closer to home
 
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