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Any Recommendations Of Resources For Israeli Shooting Method Training?

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics and Training' started by ATTHECROSS, Oct 9, 2017.

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  1. Jenrick

    Jenrick Member

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    I reread the entire thread, and no where in it does the OP mention anything about carry condition. He asks for info on how the Israeli's shoot, and he asks for some general assistance in being a better shooter with a handgun. As I noted above the carrying condition 3 or condition 1 has very little to do with their actual system of shooting. Everyone get's wrapped around chambering a round in the gun, even thought that's a very small part of a much bigger system. Yes it's different then what we do and from what most people would recommend.

    Boom Boom, I'd recommend rereading Jordan's book if you came to the conclusion that he didn't advocate shooting instinctively at close distance. He absolutely recommends it for close engagements.

    To directly answer's the OP's question:

    As referenced Garrett Machine has some good videos, the camera work and audio may be less then what we're used to now (Magpul really did raise the bar big time for gun videos), but they are still alot better then what was "state of the art" in the 90's. Content is good, and he explains things well. There's a bundle deal on amazon for the rifle and pistol DVD's, I believe it's about $60. As mentioned plenty of good stuff on youtube to check out as well. Depending on where you are in the country, there are several really good vetted instructors floating around who teach for reasonable fees. If you're in Texas PM me and I can make a few recommendations.

    I do for the simple fact that for the average gun owner needing a pistol in a SD/HD scenario it is quick to learn, easy to practice (particularly dry), and your skill level degrades slowly compared to some systems. It is a series of gross motor movements with large muscles (the ones the body likes to use under stress anyway), and it places more emphasis on grip then trigger control. I can say from being a full time LE firearms instructor, that it's way easier to improve someones grip (both strength and technical issues like where the gun sits in the hand etc), then it is to fix trigger control issues. Point/instinctive shooting (or whatever the heck you want to call it), has been around for a long time. It works well up close (inside of 10 yds), for the vast majority of people, and this distance is going to cover pretty much the entire bell curve of civilian SD/HD shootings.

    If you define accuracy as the ability to stack rounds on a bull at 50 yd, it will probably be less accurate all things being equal. The stance and methodology isn't designed for that type of shooting. However target marksmanship stances (the Olympic shooting events for example), aren't terribly help full under life or death stress. If your major concern is small groups on far targets, Point/Instinctive/Israeli shooting will pay very small dividends over a long period of time and ammo; it's probably not worth it. If you want to be able to place combat effective hits at closer ranges, then it will serve you just as well as any other shooting system out there, with in my personal opinion less time to get proficient.

    -Jenrick
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2017
  2. boom boom
    • Contributing Member

    boom boom Contributing Member

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    Not exactly, I said, " At bad breath distance, this error (referring to body indexing vs sight) is of lesser consequence" In No Second Place Winner, Jordan defines this as 0-3 yards and " it is most valuable for a few occasions at close range where you really need to in a hurry." p. 93.

    At distances greater than that "if you knew you had the time, bringing the gun up to eye level would be best at any distance greater than 5 yards." Ibid. 7-15 yards--"should be brought up the line of sight" From the pictures on pages 94-95 where Jordan illustrates his shooting method, you should note that beyond the 0-3, you do have peripheral visual indexing of the location of the firearm.

    BTW, Massad Ayoob pix regarding Applegate and Ed Lovette demonstrating point shooting are on page 90 of the Gun Digest Book of Combat Handgunnery 6th edition. In pages 88-93, Mas goes through point shooting and includes Cirrillo's use of using the pistol's silhouette as an indexing technique. The fact is the more accurate your indexing system is--the more accurate you will be and the best technique should be adopted because of efficiency in training. Have to look around but believe the aspirin issue was from an Bill Jordan interview with Mas Ayoob. Don't have time to look it up today. Mas also mentions, and I forgot to do so, the third indexing system which is a firearm mounted laser--whole nother argument there.

    As far as accuracy and speed in competition, you will notice most of the top performers now use red dot sights which are useless without visual indexing, most competitors that I have seen in IDPA also use visual indexing--the kicker is speed and accuracy are needed to win.

    But remember one crucial distinction here--our society is much less forgiving on liability issues for an errant shot for someone not law enforcement than if you are police or in another country (military is not to be considered here). If for no other reason, we should choose the most accurate indexing method to train with and in my studied opinion only--point shooting ain't it for most circumstances just as shooting through a pocket with a concealed weapon is not something that you should routinely train to do. As an individual, you can do as you like and reach your own conclusions.

    Peace out.
     
  3. ATTHECROSS

    ATTHECROSS Member

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    I want to thank Jenrick for re-reading my original post when I started the thread and for helping bring the conversation back to my original intentions. I certainly respect everyone's opinions regarding the various carry conditions and each position on this matter is certainly something to think about.... but, if I can't hit the target, even at closer range, it doesn't really matter if I carry condition 0/1 or condition 3 :). I would certainly like to shoot aspirins off a bumper at a distance further than an arms length away, but at this time if that is the job I need to accomplish I am reaching for the rifle ;). But, with that said I definitely want to get better at my pistol accuracy, which as previously stated, is lacking. So thanks for the replies regarding training to develop accuracy Israeli method or otherwise.

    Thanks everyone!
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2017
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