Anyone carry FMJ's

[Kwanger]

Ah, I see there is being a lot made in this thread about over penetration that this topic always brings.

Everyone gets obsessing about shooting and killing people through your target. IMHO, it is irrelevant because in a firefight you tend to do a lot of missing. That being the case, it can be argued that your 'man mangler' JHPs are more of a threat to third parties than FMJ.

I don't carry, period; personally don't think there is enough of a threat in our society that can't be avoided with situational awareness, but thats just me.

That all said, however, for home defense I have a mag full of bonded hollowpoints as I do buy the stopping power argument even though I don't buy the overpenetration one.

 

[geronimo509]

I dont mean to hijack but................

Axeman, Be careful in New Jersey and HP's. They have very strict laws pertaining to those. I do not know them but I hope you do.

I also heard it was almost impossible to get a CCW (or whatever you want to call it) in jersey. If that is true, then you should only need to use your weapon inside your house. That throws out the innocent bystander worry.

If South Jersey is not in the state of New Jersey, then mods please delete this post.

 

[Matt-J2]

My 1911 is loaded with FMJ. It's what I have. Doesn't do any bit of good to try and load it with ammo I can't find.

Come to think of it, I've never fired JHP through this gun(RIA GI). Picked it up shortly before we felt the big ammo crunch here, so I'm not sure if it'll even feed the stuff reliably.

 

[fireman 9731]

carrying FMJs is better than carrying nothing at all...

 

[Lone_Gunman]

Not calling you a liar, but I'll have to see it before I'll believe it.

No problem. Another poster has already provided documentation of what I was referring too, I assume that is good enough.

 

[JImbothefiveth]

I would also think that what experts carry is in fact part of your defense if you are sued after a shooting.

The experts are the police. They have the most experiance with hollowpoint stopping power, more than even mr. Smith. They use JHPs.

 

[KBintheSLC]

I only carry FMJ in my tiny 32acp as it does not reliably expand JHP's anyway. I also carry FMJ flat point intermingled with JHP in my 10mm woods gun. I need lots of penetration in the woods.

As for CCW or home defense, I don't carry FMJ in my 9mm. The gelatin tests with FMJ 9mm have shown upwards of 30 inches of penetration. Those types of liabilities are too rich for my peasant blood.

 

[Deanimator]

I don't carry, period; personally don't think there is enough of a threat in our society that can't be avoided with situational awareness, but thats just me.

So can you tell me in what way the students at Virginia Tech, the six women in the Tinley Park, Illinois Lane Bryant, and the Akron pizza parlor owner were NOT "situationally aware"?
Can you tell me how being "situationally aware" would have made a difference?
What would they have done different?

Of those three incidents, ONE of them featured the criminal assailant as the ONLY fatality.
In only ONE of them was the victim armed.
Care to tell everyone which one that was?

If you can unerringly predict when you're going to need a gun, wouldn't such a level of "situational awareness" be even better employed in the stock market or at the race track?

 

[countertop]

No one else has pointed it out, but . . .

I was at the gun shop the other day and was
talking to the guy behind the counter.

Avoiding that situation is probably the best advice I could give anyone.

 

[Oyeboten]

I would like to see terminal Ballistics Test results for .38 Special in plain Round Nose Lead, Lead Semi-Wadutters, full Wadcutters, and Hollow-Base Wadcutters loaded bakwards.


Anyone know of any Gellatin and or other formal tests with these?

In order to compare their behavior with FMJ counterparts?


Without the incidental technicalities resutling of the Hague Convention of 1899 ( was it? ) would anyone have ever cared about or used FMJ ??

 

[eye5600]

Another real world factor to consider is that unless you are cc'ing in a nudist colony and are likely to be shooting at nekkid folks, most JHP's will often plug with fabric and overpenetrate when shot through heavy clothing.

I did see a report not too long ago where 9mm failed to penetrate a ski jacket with enough oomph to cause a serious wound. It's stuff like that that makes it difficult to make a choice. One guy gets killed by a .22, and the next brushes off a .357.

 

[-v-]

JHPs for 9mm, 9x18, and .40.

.45 I would feel OK with an FMJ, but would prefer JHPs.

Definitely FMJ's for .380, .32, and .25.

7.62x25 FMJs for their rifle-style tumbling, and the seemingly better efficiency then JHPs.

 

[Lone_Gunman]

The experts are the police. They have the most experiance with hollowpoint stopping power, more than even mr. Smith. They use JHPs.

It doesnt really matter though. If you shoot a bystander, you are going to get sued, whether its with a JHP or FMJ.

Do you somehow disagree with that?

 

[KBintheSLC]

I don't carry, period; personally don't think there is enough of a threat in our society that can't be avoided with situational awareness, but thats just me. -Kwanger

Jeeze... you must live in some sort of a bubble or something... maybe another planet like the one on "Cocoon". Here on Earth, bad things happen to good people quite often. Depending on how infested your city is by gun-grabbing socialists, your chances of being a victim can be pretty high.

But thats just here on Earth... I can't speak on behalf of your planet.


...

 

[Kwanger]

Deanimator,

Going off topic to answer I guess, but as I said, it is just my opinion. If others feel the need to carry, thats fine by me, I was just telling my view.

While you point out real, terrible events, while we are on the topic of casting predictions, I think its fair to say 'what are the chances' of being in that kind of situation. Not too high, methinks. Its just not compelling enough for me to carry at this point. Its not fixed in stone; should society ever get to the point I feel the need to do so, I will.

Sometimes when your number is up, its up. I spent close to three years of my life in Afg and Iraq. Sometimes bad things happen even when you have all the guns in the world. 'Wrong place at the wrong time' can happen to anyone.

I do however get your philosophy of being prepared and all power to you for it, but until the overall picture gets alot worse, I'm still not carrying.

But should I ever do, I'll be carrying hollowpoints.....

 

[axeman_g]

dont worry about the HP issue in NJ... You can own them, you can posses them in your home or at the range or doing transit. But dont get caught with them in a carry weapon. but thats not an issue because I cant carry either here in NJ.

But that is outside the thread.

 

[Kwanger]

KBintheSLC,

I can certainly assure you I am not in a bubble. I have a lot of wider world experience that at times I wish I didn't have. Fatalistic, maybe, but Im not in a bubble.

But back on topic.....JHP all the way, dammit! That bit I can say

 

[sm]

Yep.

See post 5 by Old Fuff.

Add, for me and my environments, FMJ deflects less when shooting through glass.

Part of the security, and practiced plans, included one way mirrors, shooting lanes, backstops...etc.

So I and mine carried FMJs and we also used Lead Semi Wadcutters for the same reason. Not LSWC-HP, the LSWC as we investigated and verified loadings.

My "car gun" was a .44 Mag, with full house , hard cast LSWC. It often did home and office duty.

Folks criticize me and mine using slugs indoors too.
Hey, even a slug can deflect, Awerbuck has seen a slug deflect hitting the brim of a hat, on a target.

Do you know what buckshot does with glass?
I do, I grew up with investigate and verify.

I have shot a glass door, just for "interior decorating" reasons, and had all nine pellets go "elsewhere" , and each of the nine pellets, had their own "behavior" with media.


So "non-hollowpoints" is not just for smaller calibers, as I believe in them for .38spl, 9mm, .357, 45ACP.44 Special and .44 Mag as well.

This is only based on "Investigate & Verify" you understand.

 

[MHBushmaster]

rmuzz,

That article is out-dated, over 20 years ago it was timely, now not at all.

The article is discussing generation 1 Hollow point designs...what you find with Gen 1 Silver Tips for instance, which are primarily where alot of the bad rap about hollow point performance stems from.

Repeat that test with HST or Gold Dot and the results will be polarized opposites.


You wrote: "Edit - Bushmaster: How long can you survive with one lung? "

I dunno, depends on if the lung is removed via a double tap delivering 230gr +P HST's or if the person is under anesthesia and in a sterile environment...My grandma lived almost 7 years with 1 lung, a bad guy with a gunshot wound,,,dunno...not long but probably long enough to keep fighting back...use more ammo

 

[Gun Slinger]

"Frequently, forensic pathologists cannot distinguish the wound track caused by a hollow point bullet (large temporary cavity) from that caused by a solid bullet (very small temporary cavity.) There may be no physical difference in the wounds. If there is no fragmentation, remote damage due to temporary cavitation may be minor even with high velocity rifle projectiles.(19) Even those who have espoused the significance of temporary cavity agree that it is not a factor in handgun wounds:
"In the case of low-velocity missles, e.g., pistol bullets, the bullet produces a direct path of destruction with very little lateral extension within the surrounding tissues. Only a small temporary cavity is produced. To cause significant injuries to a structure, a pistol bullet must strike that structure directly. The amount of kinetic energy lost in tissue by a pistol bullet is insufficient to cause remote injuries produced by a high velocity rifle bullet.(20)

19) Fackler, M.L., Surinchak, J.S., Malinowski, J.A.; et.al.: "Bullet Fragmentation: A Major Cause of Tissue Disruption', Journal of Trauma 24:35-39, 1984.
20)DiMaio, V.J.M.: Gunshot Wounds,Elsevier Science Publishing Company New York, NY 1987, page 42.

Before you disect this apart and say "of course it doesn't do what a rifle will do" it basically says in the rest of the article that is 1) penetration 2) permanent wound cavity 3) temporary wound cavity and 4) fragmentation. Fragmentation does not happen in handgun ammo that also effectively penetrates and temporary wound cavity is less effective due to lack of fragmentation and the fact that most of the tissue within a human body can take a significant amount of internal "stretch" without hemorrhaging (an exception being the liver.)

No need to dissect anything since the performance of low velocity projectiles is addressed above (in red) quite adequately. My initial position that I prefer to carry JHPs (for their increased effectiveness) still stands as initially posted above.

While it is an interesting aside that some forensic pathologists may frequently have a difficult time differentiating between a wound produced by an FMJ and a JHP bullet, I am rather disinclined to become overly concerned with exactly why pistol caliber JHPs work since my primary concern remains only that they (JHPs) work.

As it is, the science of terminal efficacy (the study of "stopping power" as it were) is "nebulous" at best and anyone's guess as to why JHP and FMJ bullets behave and perform the way that they do in the human body is as good as mine.

The fact still remains that JHPs offer a performance advantage over FMJs due at least in some small part to their expansion and no matter how "slight" that margin might be, I'll still happily take what little I can get since it is my desire to tip any factor that I can in my favor when the situation dictates that I'll need to use a handgun to defend me and mine.

 

[MHBushmaster]

NJ people:

YOU CAN OWN, SHOOT, POSSESS, AND USE HOLLOW POINT AMMO.

It is illegal to use HP ammo in a crime. That is what the law states. Last I checked, it was still illegal to use any gun in a crime, it just happens that their is a harsher sentencing guideline for people that use HP ammo in the commission of a crime. Most States have laws on the books similar to this but pertaining to body armor. Body armor is still legal in those states, it just tacks on extra charges if you use body armor in the commission of a crime.

 

[.455_Hunter]

I always carry FMJ or LFN/RN in the following calibers if used for two-legged defense:

.22 LR
.22 Mag (in a NAA Mini, all JHPs act like FMJs)
.25 ACP
.32 S&W
.32 S&W Long
.32 ACP
.38 S&W / .380 MK II (not Special)
.45 Auto Rim
.455 Webley

The following may get FMJ of LFN/RN if desired penetration increases (four-legged defense):

9x18 Mak
9x19 Luger
.38 Special
.357 Magnum
.44 Special
.45 ACP
.45 Colt

 

[Coltman 77]

I'll carry 230 gr fmj in a .45 if need be. It's worked well for more than 100 years in various wars around the globe.

 

[rmuzz]

I just posted those quotes because that documentation was requested...

I even stated that info was dated regarding modern design of HP. I don't claim to be any kind of expert in this area, but I wouldn't mind using the latest and greatest hollow point ammo if it were in a caliber where I knew that could achieve acceptable penetration first and expansion/temporary cavity expansion as bonus.

If your hollow points are going to reach deep and expand fine, I don't think your .45, .40, your 9mm, etc would be better served by using FMJs.

If you have a ccw that is more along the lines of .32, .380, 9x18 something like that I think you should do some research and find out if your chosen HP ammunition penetrates adequately before trusting your safety to it. FMJ might be the right solution depending upon your weapon. They are box-of-truth and similar tests out there to help you make your decisions. Even with modern HP ammo, some of the results with smaller caliber rounds were dismal.

I'm glad you got what I was driving at regarding my "how long can you survive on one lung" comment. Even when mortal wounds are inflicted, given enough determination/motivation/adrenaline/controlled substance a violent attacker wont necessarily be stopped, excluding high CNS hits.

 

[Deanimator]

I'll carry 230 gr fmj in a .45 if need be. It's worked well for more than 100 years in various wars around the globe.

In a "war" you get extra points for getting two with one shot. In holdup in your local grocery store, you just lose everything you own.