Anyone carry FMJ's

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Shouldn't this be in general Handguns?

The answer is no, but I have in the past carried FMJs in the mag (with one HP in the pipe).

 

[ScareyH22A]

Some people use .223's for home defense. A .223 will go through many walls and even multiple homes. I think overpenetration from a pistol round is the least of our worries. If you're shooting at someone, you want to kill them as quick as possible so use what you think is best to knock them down. For me, it's JHP.

 

[bratch]

Some people use .223's for home defense. A .223 will go through many walls and even multiple homes

223 penetrates walls less than most pistol rounds.

 

[Ed Ames]

Parts of this conversation are strange to me.

There is not a single shot you can take with HP that you cannot take with FMJ, and vice versa. That is to say that you cannot count on either round stopping within (or stopping, period) an attacker. Therefore you must be aware of "your target and what lays beyond the target" at all times.

If you are using HP ammo because you think it is safe to shoot at an attacker with bystanders behind them please stay well away from me.

HP ammo is fine and I am not saying a word against it but it should have zero...NO...bearing on when you choose to discharge your firearm. If you think you can shoot HP in places where FMJ would be unacceptable you have deluded yourself. Most SD shots penetrate only air. The difference of penetration between FMJ or HP through air is irrelevant.

 

[jon_in_wv]

JHPs are more likely to expand and cause a larger, more damaging wound channel than FMJs. Other factors like stopping power, hydraulic effects, etc... that may not be considered as RELIABLE stopping factors are nonetheless factors that can and do have effect. If the JHPs give you an edge, I think its foolish not to take advantage of it. The OLD arguments about JHP reliability in autos or JHPs failure to expand are largely issues of the past with todays quality autos and modern generation JHPs. The NYPD is the only large police organization I've heard of that bought into the FMJ hype and you see they are quickly going back to HPs.

 

[BHP FAN]

Personally,I home cast lead ''ball'' ammo similar to Lazercast 230 RNL, for my .45,and use 9mm JHP's in my BHP.

 

[luzyfuerza]

No concensus appears to be emerging from this thread. This is normal.

One thing is absolutely certain, though: if, God forbid, any one of us has to use a handgun in defense of self or innocents, he had better be prepared to carefully and thoroughly explain his choice of ammunition in terms that a non-shooter can quickly grasp. I don't care which you prefer, just be prepared to explain to a jury why you chose what you did.

Here's my personal explanation:

I chose (fill in the blank) hollow-point ammunition to carry in my self-defense gun because:

1) the testing that I have seen shows that a hollow-point bullet design helps reduce the risk of overpenetration, therefore reducing the risk to anyone or anything that may be behind the target,
2) the evidence I have seen indicates that hollow-points which expand tend to incapacitate attackers more quickly, thereby reducing the number of follow-up shots that are necessary to stop an attack,
3) most police departments (including my local department and my state highway patrol) have selected hollow-point ammunition for their officers' firearms, and
4) I have tested this ammunition and know that it fires accurately and reliably in my firearm.

YMMV, just one person's opinion.

 

[jon_in_wv]

There is not a single shot you can take with HP that you cannot take with FMJ, and vice versa.

That is actually debatable too. At a high angle of incidence a JHP will dig into an penetrate glass/metal/bone/etc.. where a FMJ will be deflected. If firing at a person in a car or behind a barrier the JHP may be able to penetrate where the FMJ can not. A rare instance to be sure but there is in this case a single shot the JHP can make the FMJ can not. Its worth note to me as this same principle applies to striking bone or a skull. It could make a difference then.

 

[ScareyH22A]

223 penetrates walls less than most pistol rounds.

here's why I used a .223 as an example. http://theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1_2.htm
but I do know that a .223 will deviate A LOT from tumbling when hitting walls so trajectory and flight path are almost impossible to plan for. So a .223 is VERY dangerous to use in homes. http://theboxotruth.com/docs/bot12_4.htm

 

[Just One Shot]

That is actually debatable too. At a high angle of incidence a JHP will dig into an penetrate glass/metal/bone/etc.. where a FMJ will be deflected. If firing at a person in a car or behind a barrier the JHP may be able to penetrate where the FMJ can not. A rare instance to be sure but there is in this case a single shot the JHP can make the FMJ can not. Its worth note to me as this same principle applies to striking bone or a skull. It could make a difference then.

I believe that the opposite is true in many cases.

Depending on the type of material you are shooting through, the hollow point will expand on impact and not penetrate where the FMJ will distort less and continue through the material.

If you get the chance, find an old car and fire into the door panel. Depending on the caliber, the hollow point may penetrate the skin but be stopped by the inner frame and door panel where the FMJ will go all the way through.

 

[BushyGuy]

its best to carry FMj when your in Bear countrycuz you will need all the penetration you can get i carry Hornady TAP in my 9mm ,they are pretty decent in penetration as well as expansion.

 

[RDak]

Interesting discussion.

Can I ask a question that is a little off-topic?

I've known for a long time that if you take a hack saw and saw a "cross" on the head of a lead roundnose bullet it will perform somewhat like a hollowpoint. (I've personnally done this and shot into telephone books. The bullet expanded quite alot.)

Is it legal to do that? I ask because .38 Special ammo is hard to get but I can get roundnose cartridges.

Thanks for any opinions.

 

[MCgunner]

For those who want 100 percent expansion reliability....

http://www.hornady.com/story.php?s=786

For those who think there is no such thing as over-penetration....

§ 9.05. RECKLESS INJURY OF INNOCENT THIRD PERSON. Even
though an actor is justified under this chapter in threatening or
using force or deadly force against another, if in doing so he also
recklessly injures or kills an innocent third person, the
justification afforded by this chapter is unavailable in a
prosecution for the reckless injury or killing of the innocent
third person.

This is in Texas. Perhaps you live in a jurisdiction that allows you to kill innocent bystanders without retribution so long as it's a "good shoot", but good luck. I know if you hit me, and I survive it, I'll sue you for your house, your car, your money, and your wife if she's nice lookin'. You'll be locked up anyway, won't need her.

 

[BHP FAN]

This is a good question,one that may directly affect if I get that Forster Hollow Pointer gadget or not.

 

[MCgunner]

BHP, I don't have the aversion, living in Texas, to the legalities or implications of using handloads for self defense that some folks do, but I do use modern JHP bullets in 'em for defense. LOL I use my cast bullets for range use and in some cases for hunting and field use. I'm seriously thinking of picking up some Hornady Critical Defense, though, eventually, I mean, if I can ever find 'em again. Hard to find ANYTHING in handgun ammunition right now. Thank God for my reloading presses. I'm still SOL when my primer stash runs out.

 

[jon_in_wv]

I believe that the opposite is true in many cases.

Depending on the type of material you are shooting through, the hollow point will expand on impact and not penetrate where the FMJ will distort less and continue through the material.

If you get the chance, find an old car and fire into the door panel. Depending on the caliber, the hollow point may penetrate the skin but be stopped by the inner frame and door panel where the FMJ will go all the way through.

What you are talking about is quite a bit different that what I was talking about. Also, I've never seen that FMJs will display that type of superior penetration vs autos. From what I've seen the are pretty much the same. The hollowpoint usually collapses on contact with the steel and it acts just like a FMJ.

 

[deputy tom]

Quote:

The experts are the police. They have the most experiance with hollowpoint stopping power, more than even mr. Smith. They use JHPs.

A little background is needed here as I was lead to believe Clint Smith was a LEO prior to entering into the private training sector.

See link...
http://www.thunderranchinc.com/director.html


That having been said I usually carry HP ammo in most of my handguns but feel ball is good in some instances and in some but not all calibers.YMMV.tom.

 

[shibby]

I take it the word "reckless" was overlooked

 

[Colton White]

i pack FMJs in my naa .22 magnum if penetration is the key a .22 needs all the help it can get plus 2 holes are better than one

 

[LibShooter]

On rare occasions when I carry my 1911, its loaded with FMJs. Why? It works 100% of the time with ball ammo, and almost 100% of the time with anything else. It's an old gun that I love more than HP ammo, so I feed it what it likes. And besides, who can find anything else, these days? When I see any .45 its usually FMJ. I grab it and count myself lucky to get it!

The revolver gets JHP anytime it's not pointing at paper.

 

[WardenWolf]

I carry FMJ's in my car gun (a .45) in case I need to shoot through a car door. Other than that, no.

 

[Ken Rainey]

RDak, a long time back when I worked in the medical field, I knew a Dr. that carried a J-frame loaded with "cross cut" round nose lead or swc bullets...I offered him some hollowpoints and he shook his head no and smiled...he performed the autopsies at that time, so, when possible, I started assisting with the gunshot victims to gain insight on the wounds....interesting stuff. I don't see how it could be illegal but I'm sure that if a low life lawyer wanted to twist it, he could try to make you look like you were trying to do "extra" damage to the "shootee"... ahh, well, it all would depend on the circumstances (mostly, what part of the country you live in!) - I can't see that you couldn't make an argument in your defense such as no HP ammo available or priced out of range and you were trying to minimize any possible collateral damage by hoping to make it perform like a hollowpoint bullet....like the cops use! ... you get the idea ... IMO, if you feel better with it than without it, use it ... you could also just cut a flat nose on that round nosed bullet...I generally stick to 158 swc loads in .38 special these days and wouldn't feel too bad with just a 148 grain wadcutter...accuracy with adequate penetration, that's the key!

Anyway, I feel just fine with .45 ball or SWC ammo ... and a SWC in .38 or .357 will work as well! Doesn't bother me to use a 147 flat point fmj in 9mm either. Nothing wrong with HP ammo in these calibers but they also can't be counted on to do as advertised all the time...too many variables. Factory HP ammo (especially law enforcement type) is better in the aspect that it usually has better quality control and flash suppressed powder....not as critical in low pressure cartridges such as .38 special and .45 ACP but most 357s, 9s and 40s could use that powder....

The shot's placement with adequate penetration is what makes the difference. To all of these people worried about overpenetration hitting an innocent on the other side of the bad guy, HEY! don't fire if there is a likelyhood of hitting someone else down range - move, get a different angle of fire, fire at the lower torso (pelvic area), take a knee and fire upwards towards the upper chest/head...but, mainly, don't fire unless you're pretty darned confident that you can make the hit! In other words, don't shoot just to be shooting, concentrate and make a hit or do something else...like move to cover, or just plain run...just never give up. Living to "fight another day" by running isn't being a coward unless you're leaving other innocents to be harmed when you could have done something decisive and didn't.

As far as using your own handloaded ammunition, well, how much can "they" say if your shooting a target type load such as a SWC or even just roundnosed lead ... I feel pretty darn good when I have my 200 grain SWCs in my .45 - they are very accurate (main reason for handloading) and I've defended myself against an invading armadillo with excellent results ... and hey, it's a lighter load than factory so there's even less of a chance of the dreaded over penetration! Same goes for my 230 LRN ammo. Now, if your rolling your own and using HP ammo and kicking up the charge behind them to something faster than available for purchase, then I can see how "they" could try to use that against you, even though it wouldn't be right or relevant ... well, whatever the ammo, as we all know, it could be a pain to defend your justified actions one way or the other... just be prepared as best you can and let the good Lord take care of the rest...

 

[BhmBill]

Some people use .223's for home defense. A .223 will go through many walls and even multiple homes. I think overpenetration from a pistol round is the least of our worries. If you're shooting at someone, you want to kill them as quick as possible so use what you think is best to knock them down. For me, it's JHP.

You should not act in self defense to kill, you act to stop the threat. If the perp dies, it happens. If he slips into a coma, so be it. If you shoot his ankles out, you've stopped him.

Careful, sir.

If you shoot a guy who is attacking you and he goes down and is curled up in a ball coughing up blood, i'd say you've effectively stopped the threat, no more shots are necessary and could land you in prison for a very long time if you intend to kill the threat, not just neutralize it.

I think many people would agree with me.

 

[frankd4]

9mm 147gr JHP at 750fps subsonic yes, but I can do triple taps with out wondering where the hec the rounds are going to stop.

 

[jwPhotographer]

I'm a big believer in having spare mags squirreled away here and there. I have a spare in the console of my truck, one in the bedside table, one in a kitchen drawer, etc.

The one in the gun and the one in the truck console are JHP. Everything else is ball. So...if I manage to get to a 2nd mag and I'm not near my truck, then chances are I'll be carrying FMJ's at that time.

As a general rule though? No, I don't think it's a good idea to carry FMJ for defense...



<opinion>

1. If you're carrying to be able to "stop" a threat, a JHP is going to stop better than a FMJ. Period, the end, no discussion. Easy now....am I saying a FMJ won't stop a threat? NO - I didn't say that. However, a JHP has a higher likelihood of stopping a threat with fewer shots than the same shot(s) with FMJ. That's a statistical fact.

Also - fwiw - I do not carry to kill. I carry to stop. I'd really rather not ever kill anyone - that would suck, and would likely ruin my life and the lives of many others.

Most gunshot victims don't die from trauma - they die from blood loss. That's a statistical fact. If there's even a chance that my JHP, which is going to enter and stop, would cause even slightly less blood loss than a FMJ that will zing straight through and make two holes, thereby causing even a little less blood loss - I'll go with that. IF I ever have to stop a threat, it probably won't - but it could make the difference between a stopped, but alive threat - and a dead one.

2. Aside from stopping power, and the potential for (possibly) less blood loss - No, I'd rather not have the round go through the bad guy, through the car door behind him, through the car behind that, and through the granny who hit the deck behind that.

</opinion>