9mm FMJ overpenetration
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Lonestar49
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For the Record
...
JHP's work, and do expand when they hit flesh/soft tissue, as designed, and well, with the sole purpose of not overpenatrating, as will most FMJ if it doesn't encounter bone, in one form or another, angle wise.
Like any bullet, JHP, or FMJ, if ya miss the target, they fly on until they hit something.. and JHP's don't expand well, if at all, if they hit wood, metal, etc. fyi.
All law enforcement agencies use them, as well as most Military would "like to use JHP's instead of ball ammo, but Nato's kindness to enemy's program/s won't allow it/them to be used.
Ls
...
JHP's work, and do expand when they hit flesh/soft tissue, as designed, and well, with the sole purpose of not overpenatrating, as will most FMJ if it doesn't encounter bone, in one form or another, angle wise.
Like any bullet, JHP, or FMJ, if ya miss the target, they fly on until they hit something.. and JHP's don't expand well, if at all, if they hit wood, metal, etc. fyi.
All law enforcement agencies use them, as well as most Military would "like to use JHP's instead of ball ammo, but Nato's kindness to enemy's program/s won't allow it/them to be used.
Ls
The Lone Haranguer
Member
You don't have to use the latest and greatest, most expensive JHP, either. Federal "Classic," Remington "green box," WWB, etc. are sufficient.
spiroxlii
Member
Of course the .40SW and .45ACP crowd will chime in with seemingly conflicting arguments as to why 9mm is bad for self defense.
Some say it's bad because it doesn't poke big enough holes, but a .40SW hole isn't much bigger.
Some say it doesn't hit hard enough.
Some say it's bad because it'll go straight through your target and do too much collateral damage behind your target.
A good JHP (and good doesn't have to mean expensive) will poke a very big hole, and it will probably stay inside your target AS LONG AS YOU DO YOUR PART and place the shot on target. Even if a JHP does exit your attacker's body, chances are it will be severely deformed and will have lost a significant amount of energy.
Then the anti-9mm crowd says that JHPs frequently fail to expand.
Wet newspaper or phone books are often used as cheap backstops for defensive ammo tests, but if you want a material that more accurately mimics the density and plasticity of human flesh (the intended target of self defense ammo), look for gelatin tests. I have yet to see a gel test of modern reputable 9mm JHP ammo that demonstrated this scary expansion failure issue.
You can go with "fancy" JHPs like Remington Golden Sabers, Federal HSTs, or Corbons, or you can go with less expensive JHPs like Winchester White Box, Remington Express/Green Box, or Federal Hydrashoks (which some people consider fancy, but their only weird feature is the center post).
Any of those choices should provide reliable expansion from a handgun barrel.
Some say it's bad because it doesn't poke big enough holes, but a .40SW hole isn't much bigger.
Some say it doesn't hit hard enough.
Some say it's bad because it'll go straight through your target and do too much collateral damage behind your target.
A good JHP (and good doesn't have to mean expensive) will poke a very big hole, and it will probably stay inside your target AS LONG AS YOU DO YOUR PART and place the shot on target. Even if a JHP does exit your attacker's body, chances are it will be severely deformed and will have lost a significant amount of energy.
Then the anti-9mm crowd says that JHPs frequently fail to expand.
Wet newspaper or phone books are often used as cheap backstops for defensive ammo tests, but if you want a material that more accurately mimics the density and plasticity of human flesh (the intended target of self defense ammo), look for gelatin tests. I have yet to see a gel test of modern reputable 9mm JHP ammo that demonstrated this scary expansion failure issue.
You can go with "fancy" JHPs like Remington Golden Sabers, Federal HSTs, or Corbons, or you can go with less expensive JHPs like Winchester White Box, Remington Express/Green Box, or Federal Hydrashoks (which some people consider fancy, but their only weird feature is the center post).
Any of those choices should provide reliable expansion from a handgun barrel.
Gun Slinger
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Several good points have been made since I last viewed this thread and I have been considering the commentary made within this thread in a post prior to this, namely:
Back in August of 2000, I was faced with a situation where a suspect who was under the influence of illicit drugs became convinced as a result of his drug induced paranoia that he was being pursued by the very drug dealers that he had just purchased his drugs from and that they were intent on killing him.
During this fit of drug-induced paranoia he drove his pick-up truck at high speed around the lawns and courtyards of the Municipal Court Building, the City Police Station and the County Jail evading his imaginary pursuers and attempting to run over several citizens in the immediate area of these buildings as I was coming out of court that day.
At one point, his pick-up became trapped on a parking meter that he had struck and become snagged on and as he attempted to back up, squealing his tires in reverse, I was able to run to a position to the immediate rear of his pick-up that allowed me to take a shot at him through the rear window of his pick-up with my duty weapon.
As I prepared to make the shot and end his life in the name of putting an end to his life-threatening reckless driving, I became aware of passing traffic (both motorists and pedestrians) several yards down range of the suspect's position that prevented me from firing and shortly thereafter (mere seconds) I had to throw myself out of the way before the down range area was clear after his tires found enough traction to pull the truck off of the damaged parking meter.
Fortunately, he crashed into the steps at the front of the City Police Station completely disabling his truck and I was able to bring him into custody after running the 200 feet that he had gone prior to crashing into the steps. He hit two citizens injuring them both (they survived) and nearly struck me.
I received a commendation for my restraint and judgement during that criminal incident and use it as a reminder to myslef that circumstances can arise that prevent the use of a firearm in the defense of ourselves.
Even though I am a recently retired LEO, I remember quite clearly being trained in our Department's rules of engagement as they relate to the use of lethal force:
Condensed and simplified so that it does not run on for pages it is:
1. Officers are permitted to use lethal force only when and where the need for lethal force is absolutely necessary and only when after all other options have been exhausted or are impractical for the purpose of preventing the loss of life to those so endangered in a timely aspect pursuant to the application of such lethal force as decsribed within Departmental policy.
2. Officers are responsible for determining the suitability of conditions relating to the employment of such force and shall take into account, the potential effectiveness of such a use of force and the presence of factors that would preclude the use of such force including the presence of persons within the immediate area and the inability to assure a clear field of fire past the subject of such a use of lethal force.
I submit that the firearm and caliber used is a small part of the "overall variable equation" of any violent encounter that would require the employment of a firearm in the defense of one's own life and that sometimes conditions will arise that will prevent the use of a firearm during such an event due to the very real possibility of striking, injuring and possibly killing innocents down range of us.
More importantly, I worry that such an apathetic, negligent attitude as expressed in the commentary quoted above guiding the progression of such a violent encounter has the potential to result in the death or grievous injury of others, possibly several, not proximately involved in the violent encounter wherein the actor justifiably using a firearm in their own defense acts with such disregard for the safety of those others down range of the incident.
Finally, I submit, that even though we are not Police Officers, that adopting a template for your own response when confronted with an incident that compels the use of lethal force on your behalf based upon the above policy or one of similar qualities and attributes will possibly help us avoid prosecution criminally and civilly, protecting both our money, and more importantly, our freedom.
I apologize for the length of this post, however it is my hope that it's content and the example cited above will serve to encourage the consideration of the fact that a reckless, negilgent, apathetic attitude best expressed by the phrase, "Oh, well...." can only lead to a world of hurt, both civilly and criminally, if it is the mindset applied to such a set of circumstances that could result in the injury or death of innocents.
All the best,
GS
Back in August of 2000, I was faced with a situation where a suspect who was under the influence of illicit drugs became convinced as a result of his drug induced paranoia that he was being pursued by the very drug dealers that he had just purchased his drugs from and that they were intent on killing him.
During this fit of drug-induced paranoia he drove his pick-up truck at high speed around the lawns and courtyards of the Municipal Court Building, the City Police Station and the County Jail evading his imaginary pursuers and attempting to run over several citizens in the immediate area of these buildings as I was coming out of court that day.
At one point, his pick-up became trapped on a parking meter that he had struck and become snagged on and as he attempted to back up, squealing his tires in reverse, I was able to run to a position to the immediate rear of his pick-up that allowed me to take a shot at him through the rear window of his pick-up with my duty weapon.
As I prepared to make the shot and end his life in the name of putting an end to his life-threatening reckless driving, I became aware of passing traffic (both motorists and pedestrians) several yards down range of the suspect's position that prevented me from firing and shortly thereafter (mere seconds) I had to throw myself out of the way before the down range area was clear after his tires found enough traction to pull the truck off of the damaged parking meter.
Fortunately, he crashed into the steps at the front of the City Police Station completely disabling his truck and I was able to bring him into custody after running the 200 feet that he had gone prior to crashing into the steps. He hit two citizens injuring them both (they survived) and nearly struck me.
I received a commendation for my restraint and judgement during that criminal incident and use it as a reminder to myslef that circumstances can arise that prevent the use of a firearm in the defense of ourselves.
Even though I am a recently retired LEO, I remember quite clearly being trained in our Department's rules of engagement as they relate to the use of lethal force:
Condensed and simplified so that it does not run on for pages it is:
1. Officers are permitted to use lethal force only when and where the need for lethal force is absolutely necessary and only when after all other options have been exhausted or are impractical for the purpose of preventing the loss of life to those so endangered in a timely aspect pursuant to the application of such lethal force as decsribed within Departmental policy.
2. Officers are responsible for determining the suitability of conditions relating to the employment of such force and shall take into account, the potential effectiveness of such a use of force and the presence of factors that would preclude the use of such force including the presence of persons within the immediate area and the inability to assure a clear field of fire past the subject of such a use of lethal force.
I submit that the firearm and caliber used is a small part of the "overall variable equation" of any violent encounter that would require the employment of a firearm in the defense of one's own life and that sometimes conditions will arise that will prevent the use of a firearm during such an event due to the very real possibility of striking, injuring and possibly killing innocents down range of us.
More importantly, I worry that such an apathetic, negligent attitude as expressed in the commentary quoted above guiding the progression of such a violent encounter has the potential to result in the death or grievous injury of others, possibly several, not proximately involved in the violent encounter wherein the actor justifiably using a firearm in their own defense acts with such disregard for the safety of those others down range of the incident.
Finally, I submit, that even though we are not Police Officers, that adopting a template for your own response when confronted with an incident that compels the use of lethal force on your behalf based upon the above policy or one of similar qualities and attributes will possibly help us avoid prosecution criminally and civilly, protecting both our money, and more importantly, our freedom.
I apologize for the length of this post, however it is my hope that it's content and the example cited above will serve to encourage the consideration of the fact that a reckless, negilgent, apathetic attitude best expressed by the phrase, "Oh, well...." can only lead to a world of hurt, both civilly and criminally, if it is the mindset applied to such a set of circumstances that could result in the injury or death of innocents.
All the best,
GS
Gun Slinger
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Thanks, Trempel. 
GS
GS
Crimp
Member
Good letter, Gun Slinger. Thanks for posting that. It gives us pause to consider the realities of deadly force.
Gun Slinger
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Crimp,
You are welcome.
It is my hope that everyone here realizes that the weapon and caliber chosen plays a much smaller, yet very important, part in the overall entirety of such events since most people seem to develop "tunnel vision" and tend to perceive, operate and react as if such an incident is an isolated occurence confined to a ten foot radius surrounding themselves and the bad guy(s).
If I can help those who are considering the 'ultimate eventualities' that can and will occur when "horrible things happen to nice people" and they are forced to respond to a lethal threat with lethal force in order to save their lives and somehow prepare them for those "post event" certainties that will undoubtedly follow such action, then I am pleased to do so knowing that it might increase their odds of getting through an armed encounter without incurring innocent casualties as well as surviving the incident itself.
Such 'false bravado' reflected in unthinking commentary such as:
and....
...suggest an individual who possesses a unacceptable mindset that is not only inappropriate, but also lacking the experience, personal maturity and common sense to be expected to make legally, ethically and morally sound decisions in the critical environment that exists within the fast moving timeframe that an armed confrontation promises to deliver. The commentary above represents a perfect example of a "what not to do" list.
Lacking these mandatory personal qualities, such a person is not only a liability to himself, but to others in the immediate area as well and such an individual should not be permitted to have a CCW/CHL to begin with.
With humblest regards,
GS
You are welcome.
It is my hope that everyone here realizes that the weapon and caliber chosen plays a much smaller, yet very important, part in the overall entirety of such events since most people seem to develop "tunnel vision" and tend to perceive, operate and react as if such an incident is an isolated occurence confined to a ten foot radius surrounding themselves and the bad guy(s).
If I can help those who are considering the 'ultimate eventualities' that can and will occur when "horrible things happen to nice people" and they are forced to respond to a lethal threat with lethal force in order to save their lives and somehow prepare them for those "post event" certainties that will undoubtedly follow such action, then I am pleased to do so knowing that it might increase their odds of getting through an armed encounter without incurring innocent casualties as well as surviving the incident itself.
Such 'false bravado' reflected in unthinking commentary such as:
and....
...suggest an individual who possesses a unacceptable mindset that is not only inappropriate, but also lacking the experience, personal maturity and common sense to be expected to make legally, ethically and morally sound decisions in the critical environment that exists within the fast moving timeframe that an armed confrontation promises to deliver. The commentary above represents a perfect example of a "what not to do" list.
Lacking these mandatory personal qualities, such a person is not only a liability to himself, but to others in the immediate area as well and such an individual should not be permitted to have a CCW/CHL to begin with.
With humblest regards,
GS
I don't think it would be very difficult to explain in court that JHP's are designed to stop the attacker with fewer shots and less risk of harming innocents down range. That could go for any caliber. You can also find a box of JHP's that says "self defense" on it.
makarovnik
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Some guns will only feed FMJ. I guess the .380 FMJ would be a better choice then?
Find a bullet with a profile that works. I used to have a Glock 21 that would malfunction with 185 grain HPs, especially Speers. It worked fine with heavier bullets.
I couldn't immediately find the statistics, but I seem to recall that 9x19mm FMJ will penetrate over 40 inches of tissue, while .45 ACP FMJ will penetrate 26.
If price is an issue, GA Arms has good prices on defensive ammo. Prices are better in bulk, but one could buy 50 rounds just to test for accuracy and reliability before ordering more.
You don't have to try to find a "magic bullet", but you should buy at least decent ammo that (first) is reliable, and (second) expands at least somewhat. If you have to choose between magicsuperbullet from Xtreme! Shock that you can only afford three mags worth, buy a less expensive brand that you'll be able to get in some reasonable practice with. You should also remember that barrel length play a part in bullet performance, too. Years ago, I shot several different bullets into water, and when you drop down to about 3" barrel, almost nothing reliably expanded. Triton Quick-Shok didn't even break apart, though it did mushroom...
John
I couldn't immediately find the statistics, but I seem to recall that 9x19mm FMJ will penetrate over 40 inches of tissue, while .45 ACP FMJ will penetrate 26.
If price is an issue, GA Arms has good prices on defensive ammo. Prices are better in bulk, but one could buy 50 rounds just to test for accuracy and reliability before ordering more.
You don't have to try to find a "magic bullet", but you should buy at least decent ammo that (first) is reliable, and (second) expands at least somewhat. If you have to choose between magicsuperbullet from Xtreme! Shock that you can only afford three mags worth, buy a less expensive brand that you'll be able to get in some reasonable practice with. You should also remember that barrel length play a part in bullet performance, too. Years ago, I shot several different bullets into water, and when you drop down to about 3" barrel, almost nothing reliably expanded. Triton Quick-Shok didn't even break apart, though it did mushroom...
John
crebralfix
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Blazer Brass 115 grain FMJ shot into ballistic gellatin had approximately 21" of penetration.
There's a sweet spot for this sort of testing and it's somewhere around 16".
There's a sweet spot for this sort of testing and it's somewhere around 16".
crebralfix
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Does any have an actual number regarding self-defense/police shootings, overpenetration, and bullets that struck another person?
Gun Slinger
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cebralfix,
Sorry 'bout the delay for the response. Kinda got tied up for the last two days at the hospital when my wife gave birth to my first son. Big kid at 8.5 lbs., wish I could say that he got his looks from me, but I cannot deny the plain fact that he clearly got them from my wife.
As for data regarding FMJ through and through penetration stats, I saw several throughout the length of my career on the street and the bullets zip through just about every part of the human anatomy with great regularity and with predictable results. Detroit PD (about an hour north of me) was restricted to their use for as long as I can remember being a cop and their results were less than spectacular, too. I believe that they are using the .40 S&W Federal EFMJ at this time since it satisfies the "powers that be" with its FMJ profile. Not a "top of the line performer", but a decent load and certainly much better than hardball.
NYPD has several shootings every year with JHP's and they have had several incidences of 'through and through' penetrations that struck innocent down range bystanders, too. I say this because when bullets (FMJ, JHP etc.) start flying there are no guarantees and the variables approach the infinite.
Anecdotal data aside, not many agencies are willing release the statistical data that you seek, but there are a few and there are publications/periodicals that feature the data occasionally.
I will not get into a debate over the "validity" arguments that always seem to arise whenever the research and books written by Marshall & Sanow is mentioned, but they present such data by the "criteria" established within their books. If you like and accept their work then have at it, if not, take "a pass". It is your call and no skin off of my teeth either way.
Typically, 9mm 115 and 124 grain FMJ will penetrate between 28 and 36 inches of calibrated ballistic gelatin depending upon the weight and velocity of the bullet and .45 230 gr. FMJ will penetrate ~24 inches and in some cases, more depending on the velocity at which the round strikes gelatin. Given this rather undesirable tendency outside of caliber, if my gun will feed nothing but FMJ reliably then it's reliability becomes suspect to me and it is unacceptable for CCW/SD purposes. It is then time to find a gun that possesses suitable reliability with JHP rounds and I wouldn't look back.
If constrained to FMJ......well, I suppose that you gotta do what you gotta do, but you don't have to like it. Welcome to the "suck".
If this all sounds like common sense, that is because that is what it is after being tempered by the experience of being a street cop for over 20 years.
Don't get too obsessed by the statistics since they tend to break down on an individual level. Spend a few bucks, get a premium SD load made by a reputable manufacturer (Remington, Federal, Speer, Winchester, Hornady) load up and relax.
Besides, there better things to do with your time than get locked up with "over analysis paralysis" and I for one believe that. Back to the hospital to spend some time with my new son.
Take care and stay safe,
GS
Sorry 'bout the delay for the response. Kinda got tied up for the last two days at the hospital when my wife gave birth to my first son. Big kid at 8.5 lbs., wish I could say that he got his looks from me, but I cannot deny the plain fact that he clearly got them from my wife.
As for data regarding FMJ through and through penetration stats, I saw several throughout the length of my career on the street and the bullets zip through just about every part of the human anatomy with great regularity and with predictable results. Detroit PD (about an hour north of me) was restricted to their use for as long as I can remember being a cop and their results were less than spectacular
, too. I believe that they are using the .40 S&W Federal EFMJ at this time since it satisfies the "powers that be" with its FMJ profile. Not a "top of the line performer", but a decent load and certainly much better than hardball.NYPD has several shootings every year with JHP's and they have had several incidences of 'through and through' penetrations that struck innocent down range bystanders, too. I say this because when bullets (FMJ, JHP etc.) start flying there are no guarantees and the variables approach the infinite.
Anecdotal data aside, not many agencies are willing release the statistical data that you seek, but there are a few and there are publications/periodicals that feature the data occasionally.
I will not get into a debate over the "validity" arguments that always seem to arise whenever the research and books written by Marshall & Sanow is mentioned, but they present such data by the "criteria" established within their books. If you like and accept their work then have at it, if not, take "a pass". It is your call and no skin off of my teeth either way.
Typically, 9mm 115 and 124 grain FMJ will penetrate between 28 and 36 inches of calibrated ballistic gelatin depending upon the weight and velocity of the bullet and .45 230 gr. FMJ will penetrate ~24 inches and in some cases, more depending on the velocity at which the round strikes gelatin. Given this rather undesirable tendency outside of caliber, if my gun will feed nothing but FMJ reliably then it's reliability becomes suspect to me and it is unacceptable for CCW/SD purposes. It is then time to find a gun that possesses suitable reliability with JHP rounds and I wouldn't look back.
If constrained to FMJ......well, I suppose that you gotta do what you gotta do, but you don't have to like it. Welcome to the "suck".
If this all sounds like common sense, that is because that is what it is after being tempered by the experience of being a street cop for over 20 years.
Don't get too obsessed by the statistics since they tend to break down on an individual level. Spend a few bucks, get a premium SD load made by a reputable manufacturer (Remington, Federal, Speer, Winchester, Hornady) load up and relax.
Besides, there better things to do with your time than get locked up with "over analysis paralysis" and I for one believe that. Back to the hospital to spend some time with my new son.
Take care and stay safe,
GS
The lack of expansion was an issue prior to the 1986 Miami shootout, and for a few years afterwards. Since then, there have been both evolutionary and revolutionary changes in bullet design to insure expansion as well as penetration.
Someone characterized modern hollowpoints as basically being miniature machines, and this is quite accurate. They are a long way from the original, which were little more than FMJ with various cavities left in the tip.
littlegator
Member
Congratulations on your new son GS! Regarding being hauled into court for using JHP as opposed to FMJ, the issue is not relevant to the act of self defense. That is, the use of the JHP is not evidence having any tendency to make the existence of any material fact (whether deadly self defense was necessary) more or less probable than it would be without the evidence (use of a JHP). As long as JHPs are legal, use of them in a SD situation is not a factor that would change the status of the victim to that of a perp. Even if the JHP were not legal, its use in a legitimate self defense situation would not change the SD scenario. It could, of course, bring other charges. JHP being legal, however, that's neither here nor there.
Here's an honest question:
(assuming that a JHP, at least in theory, would make a larger wound than a FMJ in the same location)
If you miss your target altogether and hit an innocent with a JHP, would you be in a more awkward position than if you had used a FMJ instead? Could you get a worse punishment, all other aspects being equal?
(assuming that a JHP, at least in theory, would make a larger wound than a FMJ in the same location)
If you miss your target altogether and hit an innocent with a JHP, would you be in a more awkward position than if you had used a FMJ instead? Could you get a worse punishment, all other aspects being equal?
Phydeaux642
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I guess I'm good for no penetration at all on me.
_______________________
"Phydeaux, bad dog....no biscuit!"
Most FMJ is a poor choice for SD. A .355 projectile that does not expand or fragment can only do so much damage, so, if larger calibers or expanding projectiles are available, 9mm FMJ is a very poor choice for a defense round.
Gun Slinger
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Thanks, littlegator. My new son is more than I could have ever hoped for.
GS
GS
fiVe
Member
There's some good stuff in this thread!
Given that it's coroners who most often report never finding an expanded handgun JHP in their entire career (or perhaps one or two expanded bullets), it may be that bullets that don't expand are more likely to kill the person they hit, compared to ones which do expand. Possibly due to penetration differences, especially given that the JHPs of yesteryear often only penetrate 8-10".
Personally, I like more penetration than most of the current loads offer. Right around 15" is what I prefer.
Gun Slinger
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Ryan,
Your ammunition preferences seem to mirror mine.
Since I find the 9mm an adequate caliber and like deeper penetration in the 14"-16" range, I prefer the Hornady 147 gr. TAP "CQ" JHP as they typically penetrate 14+ inches and expand to 1.5X caliber (~.55") in calibrated ballistic gelatin.
If I carried a .45 ACP a little more often my thought would be to go with the Hornady 230 gr. TAP "CQ" JHP (950 f.p.s.) as a carry load.
GS
Your ammunition preferences seem to mirror mine.
Since I find the 9mm an adequate caliber and like deeper penetration in the 14"-16" range, I prefer the Hornady 147 gr. TAP "CQ" JHP as they typically penetrate 14+ inches and expand to 1.5X caliber (~.55") in calibrated ballistic gelatin.
If I carried a .45 ACP a little more often my thought would be to go with the Hornady 230 gr. TAP "CQ" JHP (950 f.p.s.) as a carry load.
GS
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