Anyone carry FMJ's

[crebralfix]

I'll cheerfully justify shooting a guy with a sawed off shotgun, trying to rob me. I CAN'T justify shooting through that robber and killing a toddler, out of sight, twenty feet away. There's no such thing as a "justifiable accidental shooting". It's almost certain I wouldn't go to jail. It's almost equally certain that I'd be sued and lose.

And this points out the primary problem with our civil court system: you were not the aggressor. The other guy was and he would not have been shot if he didn't initiate a crime.

 

[SGTB802]

I have got to put my 2 cents in I am a CCW Carry Instructor. I carry only Hollowpoints!!!!!! 1 is the chance of overpenitration. 2 what does 95 percent of police carry.3 Physics if a bullet opens even a little does it or does it not transfer more energy. People are worried about shooting thru a car dont need to be shooting. now here is devils advocate if you shoot a person with a FMJ he can sue the crap out of you. u say how is that let me explain the fmj is required by nato and the design is to wound where it takes more soldiers to remove the person A good defense attourney for the scum bag that tried to kill you that u wounded with the fmj is going to say you was not worried with self defense and you were tring to mane my client and as liberal as some are he might get a conviction and you can pay for the rest of your life if you shoot hollowpoints you have several defences 1 you are shooting the same ammo the police is using 2 better chance of stopping the threat 3 less likely to overpenetrate. now for the smaller callibers the average human torso is 12 inches thick a 32 acp will penitrate 8 inches so u transfer that energy in the body I carry a colt commander most of the time but i have a colt govt 380 i carry a lot it is loaded with the hornady critical defence and i know that if i need it i dont have to worry as much about the bullett coming out. I you have a lot of money and dont mind paying them for the rest of their life carry FMJ if u are like me and is a poor old country boy stick with a good quality FACTORY LOADED hollow point

CCW Instructor cert# 06-469

 

[RockyMtnTactical]

FMJ is generally a bad choice unless it is all you got. It will still do the job much of the time, but I like any edge I can get.

 

[Zerodefect]

Also, most FMJ ammo is made for target practice. Cheaply made, and thrown together sloppily. More attention to detail seems to be made towards the good HP ammo.

I'm no expert but we've all seen the proof. For example: Winchester White Box from Walmart is hardly defensive ammo. I get plenty of fail to feeds with this ammo in almost all my guns.

Winchester Ranger T has worked flawlessly in the pistols I use for carry. So has Speer Lawman, Rem Goldensabre, and only a couple fails to feed in Fed Hydrashock (old recoil spring/mag spring probally).

Seems to me the HP stuff seems to be more reliable in my limited testing. My 1911 feeds HP's fine.

 

[amd6547]

I have no problem carrying FMJ in my P64 9mm makarov-chambered pistol.
I don't know what kind of pistols you are having failures to feed with Win white box 9mm...I shoot it in a Beretta 92FS, a Sig P6, and have shot it in a Walther P1 and a UZI carbine. It has worked 100% in all of them.

 

[Seven For Sure]

These are the only non-HP I would carry for SD against humans (click on the pic to see the profile of the bullet better):

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_26&products_id=210

They would make a big hole going in at least, most likely two big holes.

 

[Zerodefect]

I've had bad luck with WWB, Blazer, and Remington FMJ in a Ruger P95, Kimber CDP, Ketec P11.

They've never failed with HP ammo. And my Glock23 (primary ccw piece) eats anything.

 

[rscalzo]

FMJ ammo is made for target practice. Cheaply made, and thrown together sloppily

I have no idea where you came up with that but every major manufacturer has quality FMJ available.

 

[JSmith]

Using 230gr hardball in a .45 is lunacy.

Using 230gr hardball in a .45 is just what that old lunatic John Browning intended.

Right now, I have a box of Hydrashocks for SD. Not sure if I'd rather have those, or the American Eagle FMJ.

It appears that Hornady doesn't offer "Critical Defense" in .45ACP - anyway, I can't find it on their website.

 

[RDak]

Ken: Thanks for the info. on cutting a "cross" into a .38 Special roundnose lead bullet.

Btw, I learned that "adjustment" from an Army Ranger who fought in Vietnam many decades ago.

He was hesitant to advise as to legality. He didn't know one way or the other but he seemed to act like it might not be kosher.

 

[punkndisorderly]

Using 230gr hardball in a .45 is just what that old lunatic John Browning intended.

And the Model T is just what Henry Ford intended. Technology advances for a reason: we figure out better, more efficient ways of doing things.

The goal is to get as much energy transferred as possible from the bullet to the intended targets vitals.
Any energy left over after penetrating a target is wasted energy.

A secondary goal is to minimize the threat to bystanders. FMJ's are more likely to go entirely through the target and wound bystanders or damage property. FMJ's are also more likely to ricochet upon a miss.

 

[Gun Slinger]

I have got to put my 2 cents in I am a CCW Carry Instructor. I carry only Hollowpoints!!!!!! 1 is the chance of overpenitration. 2 what does 95 percent of police carry.3 Physics if a bullet opens even a little does it or does it not transfer more energy. People are worried about shooting thru a car dont need to be shooting. now here is devils advocate if you shoot a person with a FMJ he can sue the crap out of you. u say how is that let me explain the fmj is required by nato and the design is to wound where it takes more soldiers to remove the person A good defense attourney for the scum bag that tried to kill you that u wounded with the fmj is going to say you was not worried with self defense and you were tring to mane my client and as liberal as some are he might get a conviction and you can pay for the rest of your life if you shoot hollowpoints you have several defences 1 you are shooting the same ammo the police is using 2 better chance of stopping the threat 3 less likely to overpenetrate. now for the smaller callibers the average human torso is 12 inches thick a 32 acp will penitrate 8 inches so u transfer that energy in the body I carry a colt commander most of the time but i have a colt govt 380 i carry a lot it is loaded with the hornady critical defence and i know that if i need it i dont have to worry as much about the bullett coming out. I you have a lot of money and dont mind paying them for the rest of their life carry FMJ if u are like me and is a poor old country boy stick with a good quality FACTORY LOADED hollow point

Kinda hard to make any sense of this due to "run-on" sentences (marked in red, blue and green) and almost non-existent punctuation.

Paragraphs are your friend.

 

[amd6547]

Depending on the situation, I would use FMJ for SD...9mm, 9mm Mak, 45, 7.62x25 Tokarev, Hell, even 55gn 5.56mm.
I have carried them all, and would again.
Those who are concerned about overpenetration should be even more worried about misses. Personally, I like the ability to defeat cover.

 

[CDW4ME]

From the book Stopping Power by Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow:
Solid point gelatin penetration tests:
45 acp 185 FMJ-FP 27.9''
9mm 115 FMJ 24.5''
9mm 147 FMJ 28.7''
45 acp 230 FMJ 30.5''
All of those would likely exit a human target with enough energy to kill a bystander.

By contrast, most hollow points go about 10-15''

 

[bang_bang]

I remember reading something along the lines of:

"A 9mm HP might expand, but a .45 FMJ isn't going to shrink."

.45 ACP FMJ's are in my handguns for that reason.

 

[mljdeckard]

Using .230 gr .45 ACP, I think the difference is so subtle as to make no difference at all in 90% of shootings. You're using a bullet the same weight, moving at the same velocity. The effects from JHP ammo are slight enhancements. (I can't say I feel the same way about 9mm hardball vs 9mm JHP.)

I carry HSTs, but if, for some bizarre hypothetical reason, I had to use FMJ defensively, I wouldn't change a thing. Not shot placement, not whether or not the area behind the target is clear. Those things are the same regardless. I would not freeze with terror, thinking; "Oh NO!! I've been caught without my magical JHP ammo! I might as well not shoot this bad guy at all!!" No. FMJ vs JHP is to me, a small variation in the overall strategy of personal defense. I use JHP ammo because if you are going to use deadly force, you must use the philosophy that every advantage you can give yourself to save your life helps, or why bother doing it at all?

1911s shooting 230 gr hardball ammo have saved more soldiers' lives than any other handgun I can think of.

 

[Magnum_Maniac]

Based on what I've read about FMJ ammo, the bullets overpenetrate and they tend to deflect. Some folks think that the size of the .45 bullet is enough to provide "knock down," but I don't think I'd carry 'em. They're cheap, though, and that appeals to some people. I don't know why they're still made except for the military.

Speakin' of the military, it uses FMJ in both .45 and 9mm. If you HAVE to use one or the other, the .45 is probably better, but I wouldn't feel comfortable with either or.

 

[22LRFan]

I use FMJ's in my Kel-Tec P32. I think .32 ACP hollowpoints either have trouble expanding reliably or if they do, not penetrating enough. Although for 9mm I rely on hollowpoints.

 

[Ken Rainey]

CDW4ME, gelatin doesn't wear varying thicknesses/types of clothes or have bones....

The gelatin is good for a standardized testing medium but does not/cannot take into account different sized people or what they may have on...

........................................................................................................

You can never tell what type or types of things that your defensive round may have to go thru to get to something vital in the bad guy to stop the attack....45 FMJ is about as good as it gets for all things considered. Nothing wrong with a HP except that it cannot be counted on to expand in all situations and, as was said, a .45 doesn't shrink.

I'd also feel just as confident using a 180 FMJ in .40 or a 147 FMJ in 9mm, or even a 158 SWC in .38 as I would any of those with HP ammo...why, because whether or not the ammo expands will have little impact on it's stopping capability compared to where it goes - shot placement with adequate penetration is what makes a difference...larger bullets that are able to break or shatter bone helps too!

Not saying HP ammo isn't good to have, a premium manufactured round of ammo suppose to have better quality control and powders and sealants than the lower cost line of "target" ammo...but most manufacturers also produce a premium FMJ round as well...but probably sell few of them due to the cost being pretty much the same as the "defensive" line of ammunition - that's advertised to be so protective and efficient...

Do I feel confident using Winchester Ranger T (or fill in the blank with whatever hp ammo has proven functionable and accurate in my pistol) ammunition?? Yep, but I'm just as confident in the "target" ammunition that I've loaded for myself! .... Do I count on the Ranger (or whatever) ammo to expand to be effective?? Nope, the shot placement with enough penetration will determine that. Expansion is a welcomed bonus but cannot be counted on.

Overpenetration of standard .45 FMJ ammunition is way overblown and is largely just thought to be more of a problem than it actually is .. largely due to smaller FMJs in faster calibers (115 and 124 9mm mostly) having been seen more often to be excessively penetrative.....not that they always are, but that it has been observed more...it will always depend on factors that you can never forsee whether or not a FMJ of handgun caliber will or won't penetrate on a solid shot....HP ammo has been known to "overpenetrate" as well ... you cannot believe that since your bullet has a hollow point that it will expand perfectly and magically stop just shy of exiting whatever size of bad guy that you just shot - that would be great, but in the real world, there is no absolutes...you can get "probablilities" or "maybes" with differently designed ammo in different weights and speeds but no absolutes are out there...

Yep, all things considered as much as they can be, a standard .45 FMJ is just about as "ideal" as can be expected...

Know your field of fire as best you can, shoot straight and hope for the best...

 

[BlackHand1917]

I am old fashoned enough to believe that hollowpoints are functionally less reliable in auto pistols than FMJ. I don't want a jam, I want the handgun to go boom and something to come out of the barrel.

 

[Ed Ames]

I'm old fashioned enough to believe that a bullet should be a lump of lead. Jackets on bullets? What's next, bolos and boots?

 

[JSmith]

And the Model T is just what Henry Ford intended. Technology advances for a reason: we figure out better, more efficient ways of doing things.

Sometimes.

But the 1911 platform was designed to reliably feed the .45ACP FMJ bullet.

The failure-to-feed issues that people frequently have are often the result of using ammunition the pistol wasn't designed for.

We may figure out better more efficient ways of doing things but that doesn't necessarily mean we're smarter than the man who designed the pistol.

 

[SuperFlanker]

Getting hit with a .45 ACP FMJ isn't exactly a picnic. Hit a bone and you can play pinball on your target.

 

[Yo2slick]

now here is devils advocate if you shoot a person with a FMJ he can sue the crap out of you. u say how is that let me explain the fmj is required by nato and the design is to wound where it takes more soldiers to remove the person A good defense attourney for the scum bag that tried to kill you that u wounded with the fmj is going to say you was not worried with self defense and you were tring to mane my client and as liberal as some are he might get a conviction and you can pay for the rest of your life if you shoot hollowpoints you have several defences 1 you are shooting the same ammo the police is using 2 better chance of stopping the threat 3 less likely to overpenetrate.

First off, there wont be an attorney for the scumbag that tried to kill me because if I have to shoot in self defense I WILL kill the scumbag, dead scumbags cant come back to bite you in the rear. That is exactly what is taught here in CCW classes.

I miss the days of being able to find HP ammo in 50 round boxes. Now all I can find is the 20 round boxes for 1.50 a round. I want to shoot what I plan on using for self defense and at 25 dollars for 20 rounds that isnt gonna happen.

I am not worried about overpenetration for 2 reasons. #1 I will be focused on eliminating the threat(s) and not getting dead. #2 As hard as I am going to try I dont believe that every shot will hit the BG. If anyone believes that every shot they take in a SD situation will hit its mark they need to wake up and smell the coffee.

 

[Dismantler]

I carry +p hollow points in my Model 10. I have FMJ's set aside for an LA Riot type of situation...though I am probably not going to be in one of those in New Hampshire.

Still, I can only seem to get FMJ at a reasonable price right now, so I load with JHP's and have the ball as reserve ammo.