abrink
Member
If i decide not to buy fancy hollow points for my self defense carry will i have to worry about over penetrating my target? Will 9mm FMJ go through someone and still be lethal?
thanks
thanks
9mm FMJ overpenetration
- Thread starter abrink
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The Lone Haranguer
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I believe there is a "Self Defense and the Law" (Massad Ayoob) column in the latest ish of Combat Handguns that deals with this. The 9mm ball load, with its high velocity, narrow cross section and pointed nose, is known for it. I would only use this load for defense in some almost inconceivable "SHTF" situation where no hollowpoints would be available.
on a certain shooting we had a few years ago. my partner shot a perp in his vehicle from behind, the 9mm FMJ went through the entire vehicle(trunk, back and front seat) then straight through the perp and lodged in the dash. so yea i would say a FMJ has overpenetration.
M2 Carbine
member
There is a video called "Deadly Effects". It shows some very graphic pictures of actual shootings and the effects.
One picture is of a bad guy's back who had been shot forty three (yes 43) times with the favorite 9mm JHP of the day (don't remember the name).
The BG was still fighting back and it took a couple 12 ga shotgun slugs to put him down.
They said that almost all the 9mm bullets did not expand at all and went completely through the man and didn't stop him.
From the picture about thirty 9mm exit holes can be seen.
Just for interest I shot some water soaked phone books.
It appears that wet phone books are a good bullet stopper because the 45ACP Aguila IQ and Remington Golden Saber was stopped in 2 1/4 inches.
On the other hand the 9mm went clean through the books and appeared to still be moving out.
Personally I wouldn't use FMJ 9mm for a defense round unless thats all I had.
One picture is of a bad guy's back who had been shot forty three (yes 43) times with the favorite 9mm JHP of the day (don't remember the name).
The BG was still fighting back and it took a couple 12 ga shotgun slugs to put him down.
They said that almost all the 9mm bullets did not expand at all and went completely through the man and didn't stop him.
From the picture about thirty 9mm exit holes can be seen.
Just for interest I shot some water soaked phone books.
It appears that wet phone books are a good bullet stopper because the 45ACP Aguila IQ and Remington Golden Saber was stopped in 2 1/4 inches.
On the other hand the 9mm went clean through the books and appeared to still be moving out.
Personally I wouldn't use FMJ 9mm for a defense round unless thats all I had.
So you're asking if someone gets shot with a bullet if it might be lethal? Yes. Just because it passed through a wall, person, car, or other barrier doesn't chage that.
Why wouldn't you buy some jhps? Its about $20 for 50 and not only are they more likely to stay in your attacker but they'll make a bigger hole in your attacker increasing the chance of stopping them sooner.
Larryect
Member
I buy the fancy ones. But, the sheriffs department told me they use regular Winchester JHP and they work fine. I believe they are much chaeper then Gold Dots, Golden Saber etc. YMMV
abrink
Member
The reason i ask is because i saw the thread who doesn't carry with JHP and quite a few people say they don't.
I guess i'm gonna have to go grab some JHP!
I guess i'm gonna have to go grab some JHP!
Mad Magyar
Member
If I ever was hauled into court for a shooting I'd prefer my defense be with FMJ and not "exotic killer-ammo".
IMHO, the lethal effects of over-penetration in various calibers are way overblown. Now, a miss is a miss and that's where the problems lie....
carsten1911
Member
1 shot - 2 deads
Will 9mm FMJ go through someone and still be lethal?
YES!
German police has to use 9mm Luger FMJ only, and there are incidents when one shot killed 2 people...one a perpetrator, the other innocent people.
I wont start a caliber-discussion, but 9mm FMJ is a very poor choice for a defense round!
Carsten
Will 9mm FMJ go through someone and still be lethal?
YES!
German police has to use 9mm Luger FMJ only, and there are incidents when one shot killed 2 people...one a perpetrator, the other innocent people.
I wont start a caliber-discussion, but 9mm FMJ is a very poor choice for a defense round!
Carsten
Gun Slinger
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abrink,
Typically, 9mm FMJ is notorious for "through and through" penetration of the human anatomy and since you are responsible for every round that you launch down range, legally, financially and morally, regardless of the "scenario" actual or implied, it is not an optimal choice, especially in these times of insane civil litigation.
Killing someone and halting their violent/homicidal actions immediatley are not mutually inclusive performance criteria and while FMJ can certainly be lethal when placed correctly, the JHP tends to offer better immediate threat incapacitation over FMJ, but even then there are no guarantees. This is why the vast majority of American Police Departments issue premium grade JHP ammunition as a rule.
The trivial amount of money saved by purchasing/choosing FMJ's over JHP's of premium SD design/manufacture for the purpose of defending your life is inconsequential relative to my life (and yours, too) and the possibilty of inflicting harm to uninvolved innocents downrange of whatever incident may precipitate such action on my behalf. Where my life and that of those I love and hold dearest to me is involved, I choose to carry the best SD ammo that my money can buy because I and my family are worth it.
If money is truly an issue, even the 9mm Winchester (USA) White Box JHP's of various weights (115,124,147 gr.) are a wiser choice than plain FMJ and will offer at least some promise of better terminal performance and expansion over that of ball ammunition.
And at $15.00-$16.00 per box of 50, WWB won't break the bank either if you want 100-200 rounds for practice and carry purposes.
GS
Typically, 9mm FMJ is notorious for "through and through" penetration of the human anatomy and since you are responsible for every round that you launch down range, legally, financially and morally, regardless of the "scenario" actual or implied, it is not an optimal choice, especially in these times of insane civil litigation.
Killing someone and halting their violent/homicidal actions immediatley are not mutually inclusive performance criteria and while FMJ can certainly be lethal when placed correctly, the JHP tends to offer better immediate threat incapacitation over FMJ, but even then there are no guarantees. This is why the vast majority of American Police Departments issue premium grade JHP ammunition as a rule.
The trivial amount of money saved by purchasing/choosing FMJ's over JHP's of premium SD design/manufacture for the purpose of defending your life is inconsequential relative to my life (and yours, too
) and the possibilty of inflicting harm to uninvolved innocents downrange of whatever incident may precipitate such action on my behalf. Where my life and that of those I love and hold dearest to me is involved, I choose to carry the best SD ammo that my money can buy because I and my family are worth it.If money is truly an issue, even the 9mm Winchester (USA) White Box JHP's of various weights (115,124,147 gr.) are a wiser choice than plain FMJ and will offer at least some promise of better terminal performance and expansion over that of ball ammunition.
And at $15.00-$16.00 per box of 50, WWB won't break the bank either if you want 100-200 rounds for practice and carry purposes.
GS
One of the old gun gurus (can't remember which one) said "if you shoot them through an through, they just bleed on both sides". I think more innocents are hit more by missed shots than overpenetrating bullets. I feel much better with a solid point- hard lead or FMG. Pretty much know how they are going to perform.
I should add, in all fairness, that I live out in the country in a state that does not allow civilian concealed carry except on ones own property.
My nearby neighbor is a good quarter mile away.
If there is somebody behind the guy I am trying to shoot, chances are that person is in kahoots with my target.
If they get hit too, oh well.
If I was unlucky enough to be forced into living in a big box apartment building or had the option of concealed carry I admit my choice of ammunition would likely change.
Should I be forced into living in a big box apartment building my ammunition choice would likely be 9mm frangible.
I would most likely choose to use an AR15 carbine with 45 or 50 grain hollowpoint to all but eliminate the possibility of complete wall penetration.
If they ever allow concealed carry in my state my choice would be Federal expanding full metal jacket or my old favorite 9mm hollowpoint load, Federal Classic 115 JHP
I certainly wouldn't want to hit an innocent bystander on the mean streets of the big city,,,,,
My nearby neighbor is a good quarter mile away.
If there is somebody behind the guy I am trying to shoot, chances are that person is in kahoots with my target.
If they get hit too, oh well.
If I was unlucky enough to be forced into living in a big box apartment building or had the option of concealed carry I admit my choice of ammunition would likely change.
Should I be forced into living in a big box apartment building my ammunition choice would likely be 9mm frangible.
I would most likely choose to use an AR15 carbine with 45 or 50 grain hollowpoint to all but eliminate the possibility of complete wall penetration.
If they ever allow concealed carry in my state my choice would be Federal expanding full metal jacket or my old favorite 9mm hollowpoint load, Federal Classic 115 JHP
I certainly wouldn't want to hit an innocent bystander on the mean streets of the big city,,,,,
Round nose FMJ, high velocity, fairly small cross section. Yeah, the 9mm will go through a lot of stuff, and most definitely through a person or two (provided you're not dealing with someone who's a 400lb whale). A 9mm slug that was fired from a German SMG ended up going through the torso of another soldier before going through the thigh AND clipping the bone, just above the knee belonging to my grandfather, many decades ago.
Robert Hairless
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So all the evidence about overpenetration from 9mm ball ammunition is wrong, and all the experts are wrong too.
Gun Slinger
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Robert,
Some folks insist on using FMJ despite the potential for overpenetration and the liability that follows such a choice as well as the lessened terminal effects that FMJ in any caliber seem to display as opposed to JHP's despite the solid advice offered by those know by direct experience what they are talking about.
I can only hope that someone who has chosen such a round(any caliber FMJ) for the purpose of self-defense has very "deep pockets" when the FMJ that they have sent down range, whether it has struck the 'bad guy' or not, strikes and penetrates (possibly) several innocent bystanders, injuring them and/or killing them. We are all responsible for what our rounds do after leaving our guns, regardless of our intentions or the circumstances surrounding such a situation and the consequences can and will range from criminal charges like manslaughter and negligent homicide to civil litigation (lawsuits for lots(!) of money) and more than likely a combination thereof, should we experience the unlikely event of accidentally and unintentionally injuring or killing an innocent.
No matter how unlikely the chance that something like this will occur, it has and still continues to occur despite the odds, and the risks of harming an innocent, let alone facing possible incarceration and civil litigation are just not acceptable to me (and many, many others for that matter) to risk such an outcome.
Sadly, there are those who either just do not care or do not believe that it could happen to them by way of apathy and/or ignorance and my only hope for them is that I am not one of the unfortunate souls down range of them when they "let loose" with an FMJ (or ten
) during such an incident.
GS
Some folks insist on using FMJ despite the potential for overpenetration and the liability that follows such a choice as well as the lessened terminal effects that FMJ in any caliber seem to display as opposed to JHP's despite the solid advice offered by those know by direct experience what they are talking about.
I can only hope that someone who has chosen such a round(any caliber FMJ) for the purpose of self-defense has very "deep pockets" when the FMJ that they have sent down range, whether it has struck the 'bad guy' or not, strikes and penetrates (possibly) several innocent bystanders, injuring them and/or killing them. We are all responsible for what our rounds do after leaving our guns, regardless of our intentions or the circumstances surrounding such a situation and the consequences can and will range from criminal charges like manslaughter and negligent homicide to civil litigation (lawsuits for lots(!) of money) and more than likely a combination thereof, should we experience the unlikely event of accidentally and unintentionally injuring or killing an innocent.
No matter how unlikely the chance that something like this will occur, it has and still continues to occur despite the odds, and the risks of harming an innocent, let alone facing possible incarceration and civil litigation are just not acceptable to me (and many, many others for that matter) to risk such an outcome.
Sadly, there are those who either just do not care or do not believe that it could happen to them by way of apathy and/or ignorance and my only hope for them is that I am not one of the unfortunate souls down range of them when they "let loose" with an FMJ (or ten
) during such an incident.GS
Robert Hairless
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RyanM and Gun Slinger: right, good, and well said.
Statements like the one I quoted are irresponsible, as are statements like "If there is somebody behind the guy I am trying to shoot, chances are that person is in kahoots with my target. If they get hit too, oh well."
What "chances are" means in that statement is that the shooter is gambling with other people's lives and "oh well" means he doesn't care. If the somebody behind the guy he is trying to shoot is a neighbor being held hostage by an accomplice and he or she gets hit too, "oh well." If it's a neighbor trying to slip up behind the guy he is trying to shoot and he gets hit too, "oh well." If it's a deputy sheriff and he gets hit too, "oh well."
Even on the Internet an "IMHO" doesn't turn fact into opinion, humble or not, and doesn't transform bad practice into good advice.
Statements like the one I quoted are irresponsible, as are statements like "If there is somebody behind the guy I am trying to shoot, chances are that person is in kahoots with my target. If they get hit too, oh well."
What "chances are" means in that statement is that the shooter is gambling with other people's lives and "oh well" means he doesn't care. If the somebody behind the guy he is trying to shoot is a neighbor being held hostage by an accomplice and he or she gets hit too, "oh well." If it's a neighbor trying to slip up behind the guy he is trying to shoot and he gets hit too, "oh well." If it's a deputy sheriff and he gets hit too, "oh well."
Even on the Internet an "IMHO" doesn't turn fact into opinion, humble or not, and doesn't transform bad practice into good advice.
Gun Slinger
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+1
GS
mljdeckard
Member
Every time you fire any bullet, anywhere, at anything, you must worry about overpenetration. There is no bullet of any caliber guaranteed to do anything to anyone. It is easy to say before the fact that you will kill first and deal with the consequences, but consider those consequences.
This is why knowing your target and what is beyond it is always important, at the range, shooting jackrabbits, in your house, at the mall, on the battlefield. Doesn't matter. This isn't to say that it is always possible to make a clear decision and know everything before you act, but you cannot pretend that it of little consequence.
Neither can you modify your equipment based on what may happen. You should still use the best weapon, that you use best, with the best ammunition, that allows you to get as many good hits as possible. If we so concerned about overpenetration that we started to change our gear for it, then we shouldn't carry at all.
Watch your shot, but take it when you get it. Kneel and fire upward. TRAIN WITH THE POSSIBILITY OF HAVING TO CHOOSE YOUR SHOT. Even when you have difficult circumstances, you still have to be in the fight.
This is why knowing your target and what is beyond it is always important, at the range, shooting jackrabbits, in your house, at the mall, on the battlefield. Doesn't matter. This isn't to say that it is always possible to make a clear decision and know everything before you act, but you cannot pretend that it of little consequence.
Neither can you modify your equipment based on what may happen. You should still use the best weapon, that you use best, with the best ammunition, that allows you to get as many good hits as possible. If we so concerned about overpenetration that we started to change our gear for it, then we shouldn't carry at all.
Watch your shot, but take it when you get it. Kneel and fire upward. TRAIN WITH THE POSSIBILITY OF HAVING TO CHOOSE YOUR SHOT. Even when you have difficult circumstances, you still have to be in the fight.
Lonestar49
Member
...
Double post
Double post
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Lonestar49
Member
...
Seriously, you should look into JHP's as they were designed to hit, spread, tear, and stop, within the human body. Depending on weather, and clothing requirements, you need only choose from weight and velocity to overcome any possible, not enough, ummph to get thru to the BG's body and do the job.
If you insist on sticking with FMJ, then I'd say get the least amount of weighted bullets, without any extra +P or +P+.. and hopefully be in a proper shooting situation where you know where the bullet/s will go if you miss or they go thru the intended BG target..
Just for an example, with my standard 9mm's, I use nothing but JHP, but with my Sig P232 380, and after all that I have read about penetration values of the 380 95gr JHP vs 380 95gr FMJ (short 9mm) ammo, I use only 95gr FMJ with that gun without any of the extra powder load type ammo (+P) as not to punch thru and beyond intended BG target.
Ls
Seriously, you should look into JHP's as they were designed to hit, spread, tear, and stop, within the human body. Depending on weather, and clothing requirements, you need only choose from weight and velocity to overcome any possible, not enough, ummph to get thru to the BG's body and do the job.
If you insist on sticking with FMJ, then I'd say get the least amount of weighted bullets, without any extra +P or +P+.. and hopefully be in a proper shooting situation where you know where the bullet/s will go if you miss or they go thru the intended BG target..
Just for an example, with my standard 9mm's, I use nothing but JHP, but with my Sig P232 380, and after all that I have read about penetration values of the 380 95gr JHP vs 380 95gr FMJ (short 9mm) ammo, I use only 95gr FMJ with that gun without any of the extra powder load type ammo (+P) as not to punch thru and beyond intended BG target.
Ls
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