Anyone had good accuracy with a 405g cast lead bullet, at long ranges?

[JimGnitecki]

The .45-70: Still Going Strong | Sports Afield

New bullet designs and construction have given new life and new versatility to the venerable .45-70 Government. While big bore lever-actions have long.

sportsafield.com

I thought this was an interesting read, you may as well.

chris

Yes, THANK-YOU for drawing my attention to the article. It says a lot of very good things about the 45-70, BUT the author also labels it as good to only about 200 to maybe 250 yards. Now his view is heavily based on his experience as a hunting guide, but the fundamentals of the cartridge, especially the low velocity and the resulting rainbow arc trajectory have a heavy ultimate impact on any desire to shoot long distances with it. I cna understand how many replica target (versus hunting) shooters would reagrd it as both effective and fun as a "gong" shooter, but not as a rewarding group shooter.

So, I seem to be an apparently rare replica buffalo rifle admirer who would really love to see it succeed at long distance target shooting. And therefor, I should probably expect that it might be very hard to on my own find a smokeless handload that will delievr what I would love to see.

Jim G

 

[JimGnitecki]

. . . If you want to be close to the NRA silhouette shooting, get the specs for the 500 yard ram target. It also sounds like you shoot out in the country, not so much at a range (which is what I do), so it maybe be worth a look at a t-post hanger for your targets. We have t-posts pre-ranged in our local shooting spots, and just hang the targets on them. We used to suffer the pain of hanging them, but the t-post hangers are so much better and easier to deal with.

We do have some that we actually just leave out there, and just repaint them when we shoot. One of those is at 1 mile, and I've never hit it myself, lol. I've scared it once or twice though. I don't have enough elevation on my scope;-(

Eric, I actually drive 62 kilometers each way from the city TO "the country" each time, BUT it is to and from a rural municipal gun range ( !! Hey, this is in Alberta, the "Texas of the North" where freedom still partially exists!) 10 km north of a small town, that is underutilized and has ranges up to 600 meters. So, I can actually drive my pickup truck out to the 600 meter line along a range-side lane to set up and retrieve targets. But, this only works well when I am the ONLY shooter on that range at the time. If the range gets more than 2 or 3 shooters, I lose way too much time waiting for "cease fires". Fortunately, at least 75% of the time I go there, I do have the range to myself.

The big issues with getting and using a gong target would be:

- COST of a gong target AND something to hang it on, that will successfully handle bullets with a power factor of 1000 session after session

- WEIGHT of such a gong and something to hang it on

- It would have to be, each time I go, loaded into the truck without damaging the truck or my 73 year old body, trucked out to 600 meters, unloaded, set up, shot at, disassembled, reloaded onto the truck, driven back to the firing line and then home, and unloaded again without dmaaging the truck or me, to take up valuable space in my garage!

- It would not provide to me any clue whether any individual shot is low, high, left, or right of the "bullseye", nor show the actual location of the shot on the gong when I do successfully hit it at all. Andf, even if it DID somehow show bullet marks on the gong, I could not SEE them even with my spotting scope OR semi-authentic6x full length scope!

-Even seeing the bullet impact the berm would not be easy, because at say 1500 fps, it would impact only about 3/4 of a second after I fire it, and the recoil of the 45-70 means I can't just keep the 6x semiauthentic full length scope on the target the whole time!

Each of these issues would need to be successfully addressed somehow. I think my efforts to-date show I am no quitter, but THESE issues will test my limits and truthfully my judgment and sanity!

Jim G

 

[JimGnitecki]

Based on your bullet observations the lower bhn bullet is cheaper to make and just as good. This is when powdercoated which essentially is a soft jacket. If one goes to traditional lube then base erosion becomes a factor and then testing with gas checks. I consider that an expensive digression. Moving forward if a better bullet is in the cards you may want to design your own bullet with a very small meplat, for your purposes. Most 45-70 bullets are designed for lever guns and those that aren't seem crazy heavy. I would play with a ballistic calculator and find a weight and minimum bc that meets your goals based on intentional launch velosity. The only set parameter I would begin with is 2200fps maximum because lead bullets over that get complicated in their own right.

AJC1, this is a very insightful commentary. It deserves my serious consideration and analysis. I am of course no bullet designer, but I could certainly lay out a set of "requirements" and email them to multiple mold makers. Some might reply saying "no way", but one or more of them MIGHT just reply with a usable solution that has at least a worth-it chance of success. Thank-you.

Jim G

 

[JimGnitecki]

I shoot an 1874 Sharps Pedersoli and compete with it. Heavier bullets always perform better at longer ranges. 405s, I have found to be good at to about 400yds. I use 520gr bullets with 4 grease groove using BP and I am usually about 2-3 MOA at 500-600yds with vernier sights. If you are .8 MOA with optics at short distances, you and your rifle are performing as well as can be expected. Buffalo guns, even if newly manufactured, are not designed to perform at the same level as PRS rifles. If you develop a load that is 2MOA or less at 400ish, then you have your load. Then anything beyind that is you learning how to adjust your sights for that distance based on conditions. And you are shooting smokeless, so you don't have the extra challenge of fouling control.

Thank-you, ChiefTC. This puts thing in a practical perspective, and reinfocres some of what others have said above as well.

Jim G

 

[AJC1]

AJC1, this is a very insightful commentary. It deserves my serious consideration and analysis. I am of course no bullet designer, but I could certainly lay out a set of "requirements" and email them to multiple mold makers. Some might reply saying "no way", but one or more of them MIGHT just reply with a usable solution that has at least a worth-it chance of success. Thank-you.

Jim G

They have bullet modeling software that is analogous to quickloads. The name currently escapes me. A small meplat boatail with two big driving bands with a big greese groove relief between is your jam. I haven't done this but I envision it as your success.

 

[EricBu]

Eric, I actually drive 62 kilometers each way from the city TO "the country" each time, BUT it is to and from a rural municipal gun range ( !! Hey, this is in Alberta, the "Texas of the North" where freedom still partially exists!) 10 km north of a small town, that is underutilized and has ranges up to 600 meters. So, I can actually drive my pickup truck out to the 600 meter line along a range-side lane to set up and retrieve targets. But, this only works well when I am the ONLY shooter on that range at the time. If the range gets more than 2 or 3 shooters, I lose way too much time waiting for "cease fires". Fortunately, at least 75% of the time I go there, I do have the range to myself.

The big issues with getting and using a gong target would be:

- COST of a gong target AND something to hang it on, that will successfully handle bullets with a power factor of 1000 session after session

- WEIGHT of such a gong and something to hang it on

- It would have to be, each time I go, loaded into the truck without damaging the truck or my 73 year old body, trucked out to 600 meters, unloaded, set up, shot at, disassembled, reloaded onto the truck, driven back to the firing line and then home, and unloaded again without dmaaging the truck or me, to take up valuable space in my garage!

- It would not provide to me any clue whether any individual shot is low, high, left, or right of the "bullseye", nor show the actual location of the shot on the gong when I do successfully hit it at all. Andf, even if it DID somehow show bullet marks on the gong, I could not SEE them even with my spotting scope OR semi-authentic6x full length scope!

-Even seeing the bullet impact the berm would not be easy, because at say 1500 fps, it would impact only about 3/4 of a second after I fire it, and the recoil of the 45-70 means I can't just keep the 6x semiauthentic full length scope on the target the whole time!

Each of these issues would need to be successfully addressed somehow. I think my efforts to-date show I am no quitter, but THESE issues will test my limits and truthfully my judgment and sanity!

Jim G

3/8 inch AR400 will handle 45-70 as long as it is at least 300 yards or so out, 1/2 will work at 500 yards no problem. And I'm talking thousands of rounds. The t-posts will break down eventually because the spalling will erode them (and that's with jacketed ammo, less of an issue for you), and of course somehow a 2-inch wide t-post seems to be a low miss magnet;-( Also, the nice thing about a gong is...you paint it white, and either put a black dot in the middle, or an orange dot, whatever works for your eyes (I actually use bright green paint for the middle)...and you can easily see your group through a spotting scope. The hanger is a tougher one, like I said we use a t-post hanger, but you'd have to clear that with your range folk. We did use a commercial hanger once upon a time, but it get's expensive hitting them, lol. There is a company that makes steel connectors, and you just supply your own 2x4's to support it, knowing you'll be replacing them periodically. A standard human silhoette AR400 target is pretty heavy, my shooting partner is 62, and he carries them around like they are cardboard, but I have to put some effort into it, and I definitley like to drive right up to the t-post to hang it. Not sure how much a 18 inch 1/2 AR400 gong would cost, with shipping. If you have a local fab shot, give them a call and see what they'd charge to cut you one. We buy odd sized sheets of AR400 and AR500 from a scrap yard and cut our own, or buy them when their are sales or deals to be had.

We usually drive out to a target and hit it with a fresh shot of paint about every 15 or 20 hits. Nice having two feedback points...spotting scope and the resounding and satisfying "BONG!". We just use the absolute cheapest white rattle can paint we can find.

 

[JimGnitecki]

Here is the peep sight on my Browning 71 .348WCF. I had it jacked out as far as it would go for the 600yd target... and I went ahead and took a poke at the 900. I put the front sight bead on TOP of the peep disk... and let fly a few times. I was in the neighborhood, but I'll admit, a hit would have been pure luck. I loaded those 200grn FN bullets for 2200fps, they were certainly running out of steam by the time they got out to 900yds. It's fun to push the boundaries... I shot my Savage 99 .308 at the 900yd target, too... but those 173's ran out of steam shortly after 600yds.

Charlie, fortunately my semi-authentic full barrel length scope has external adjsutment mounts, set on a "mount radius" that almost perfectly maximizes the available range of elevation. I actually have just over 200 MOA (yes, 200) of elevation range with vernier adjustment. Here's a photo:



Jim G

 

[JimGnitecki]

They have bullet modeling software that is analogous to quickloads. The name currently escapes me. A small meplat boatail with two big driving bands with a big greese groove relief between is your jam. I haven't done this but I envision it as your success.

I am going to develop a requirements list for the "ideal" bullet, and see what an experienced mold maker can suggest as the right solution.

Jim G

 

[JimGnitecki]

3/8 inch AR400 will handle 45-70 as long as it is at least 300 yards or so out, 1/2 will work at 500 yards no problem. And I'm talking thousands of rounds. The t-posts will break down eventually because the spalling will erode them (and that's with jacketed ammo, less of an issue for you), and of course somehow a 2-inch wide t-post seems to be a low miss magnet;-( Also, the nice thing about a gong is...you paint it white, and either put a black dot in the middle, or an orange dot, whatever works for your eyes (I actually use bright green paint for the middle)...and you can easily see your group through a spotting scope. The hanger is a tougher one, like I said we use a t-post hanger, but you'd have to clear that with your range folk. We did use a commercial hanger once upon a time, but it get's expensive hitting them, lol. There is a company that makes steel connectors, and you just supply your own 2x4's to support it, knowing you'll be replacing them periodically. A standard human silhoette AR400 target is pretty heavy, my shooting partner is 62, and he carries them around like they are cardboard, but I have to put some effort into it, and I definitley like to drive right up to the t-post to hang it. Not sure how much a 18 inch 1/2 AR400 gong would cost, with shipping. If you have a local fab shot, give them a call and see what they'd charge to cut you one. We buy odd sized sheets of AR400 and AR500 from a scrap yard and cut our own, or buy them when their are sales or deals to be had.

We usually drive out to a target and hit it with a fresh shot of paint about every 15 or 20 hits. Nice having two feedback points...spotting scope and the resounding and satisfying "BONG!". We just use the absolute cheapest white rattle can paint we can find.

Eric: I know what a T-Post is (the posts used to build fences to keep animal stock either inside or outside of an enclosed area). But:

1. What is a "T-Post Hanger"?

2. How do you set up the T-Post, the T-Post hanger, and the gong? Do you have any photos to help me understand the arrangement?

3. Did you mean to type "AR400", or did you intend "AR500"?

4. You said "3/8 inch AR400 will handle 45-70 as long as it is at least 300 yards or so out, 1/2 will work at 500 yards no problem."
You must have mistyped, as the 1/2" would work at a SHORTER distance than the 3/8", right?

Jim G