AR15 is not HIGH-Powered!

[BSA1]

"Even 55gr, I’ll consider anything that sends its projectile downrange ~3000 fps as “high power"."

Ditto.

"1) All center fire are high power.
2) Legal for deer in most states.
3) You don't know what your talking about so why would they listen to you."

Dittos x 2.

 

[AlexanderA]

The gun community itself was originally responsible for the term "high power." In rifles, it was meant to denote anything above .22 rimfire.

The antigunners simply took this and ran with it. The context is what gives it propaganda value.

 

[2ifbyC]

While I agree that many in the media are ignorant of firearm terminology, I also believe liberals choose words that create the most visceral effect to invoke change. Conversely, they will use terms, e.g., undocumented immigrant, to soften the impact.

When you use a term long enough, it becomes part of the lexicon. The left have become masters at manipulation of the human psyche and it’s why they take immediate action in time of crisis to prey on emotions.

That said, I do not believe word battles are productive. The “granny off the cliff” images are hackneyed and conservatives should ignore them in favor of more salient factors.

 

[Nanook]

I believe you have that backwards. In most states, it is legal to hunt deer with .223/5.56. I believe only Colorado, Connecticut, Illinois, Iowa, Massachusetts, Virginia, Ohio, New Jersey, Washington, and West Virginia are the only states requiring a larger cartridge. The list is 3 years old, but I don't think 15 or 16 states have changed their laws in that time to disallow .223/5.56

Just for clarity, in IL you can't hunt deer with a rifle in any county. There is a black powder season, and bow season, but no rifles allowed. Recently they added a handgun season, using calibers beginning with .4 if I'm not mistaken.

You can hunt coyotes with rifles in IL, though.

 

[Tirod]

The problem is accepting the anti gunners rhetoric at face value when in point of fact they lie, distort, and twist the truth to spin it in their direction. Getting bent out of shape over their use of the phrase means accepting their definition, which doesn't legally or mathematically exist.

Define "high power" first and good luck with that. If it could be done would we want to then deal with all the new attacks based on it? No.

Leave them to overstate the situation and they continue to embarrass themselves about it. Don't interrupt your enemy when they are making a mistake.

 

[Hokkmike]

Most of us,. who are beyond informed to very knowledgeable, think of "high powered" in terms of over-bore magnum cartridges with flat trajectories and lot of hitting power.

 

[taliv]

If we talk to our friends like some have responded in this post, it's no wonder the leftie loons think we are gun nuts and won't listen to us. Never understood why we go after our own.

pro tip: if you start a highly emotional rant and don't have your facts straight, expect to be corrected. if i'm wrong, i would expect my friends to correct me. if i'm showing my ass, I'd expect the correction to be less than gentle.

Most of us,. who are beyond informed to very knowledgeable, think of "high powered" in terms of over-bore magnum cartridges with flat trajectories and lot of hitting power.

we do?
the only association i make between "high power" and firearms is the NRA High Power competition. I don't call over-bore magnums or anything else high powered, because there is no value in the term high power. it's meaningless without context (e.g. NRA rulebook defining the term). Otherwise, it sounds more like an elementary school playground conversation. Using a term like Power Factor would be much more meaningful, though that would actually require being informed or knowledgeable

 

[bassjam]

Most of us,. who are beyond informed to very knowledgeable, think of "high powered" in terms of over-bore magnum cartridges with flat trajectories and lot of hitting power.

I think "most of us" would just call those "magnum cartridges".

I tend to associate the term "high powered rifle" with any centerfire bottlenecked cartridge. Thus, while the .45/70 is certainly powerful, I wouldn't consider a lever action chambered in that round a high power rifle.

 

[Deanimator]

It's powerful enough to kill people quickly and effectively....

So is a .25acp handgun:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasily_Blokhin

 

[Deanimator]

Bill O'reilly's term of heavy weapons bothers me more when he talks about AR15's.

Bill O'Reilly is a know it all blowhard.

 

[Hokkmike]

pro tip: if you start a highly emotional rant and don't have your facts straight, expect to be corrected. if i'm wrong, i would expect my friends to correct me. if i'm showing my ass, I'd expect the correction to be less than gentle.



we do?
the only association i make between "high power" and firearms is the NRA High Power competition. I don't call over-bore magnums or anything else high powered, because there is no value in the term high power. it's meaningless without context (e.g. NRA rulebook defining the term). Otherwise, it sounds more like an elementary school playground conversation. Using a term like Power Factor would be much more meaningful, though that would actually require being informed or knowledgeable

I shoot with simple country folk and have never read the NRA rule book. I am sure you are much more knowledgeable than me.

 

[Sam1911]

I shoot with simple country folk and have never read the NRA rule book.

Neither have the media people. However, as coincidental as it may be, their use of the term happens to coincide with the most concrete usage of the term in this case.

An AR-15 firing 5.56 NATO falls squarely in the "High-Power" category of rifles. It just happens that so does everything from .17 Remington up through .700 Nitro Express or .950 JDJ!

 

[taliv]

the only thing this conversation illustrates is that words have different connotations to different people. in some contexts, precise definitions are required and deviating from that can have significant consequences. engineering and legal and medical professions, for example.

but for most of us, it just doesn't matter if someone calls a magazine a clip. it's not worth getting hot and bothered about.

do some people use loaded terms to attempt to sway the opinions of those with no critical thinking skills? sure.

 

[Stump Water]

1) All center fire are high power.

.38 special too?

 

[bearman49709]

38 special too?

I don't know is it centerfire or rimfire?

 

[Danoobie]

Actually, I prefer it when they use improper terminology. They are clearly demonstrating how ignorant they are,
before we even begin to reply. Feed them enough rope, see how far they will stick their ass out, and if they will
ever wise up to the fact they have no idea what they are talking about.

 

[Archie]

I remember a couple years ago I first started collecting WWI rifles. One of the first I found was an M(18)95 Mannlicher 'straight pull'. It was chambered for the 8x56Rmm round. Doing some research, I found a couple You Tube videos about the rifle (carbine). To a person, they all bemoaned the terrible recoil.

To be fair, it does fire a 208 grain bullet at about 2300 fps. Not the worst recoiling rifle I've ever fired, but 'healthy'. It's not a rifle for shooting prairie dogs or tin cans, but it's not abusive, either.

So what does that have to do with .223s and 'high power'? My initial response was the guys who thought the M95 was hard recoiling probably thought the AR15 was a real rifle.

In terms of a military arm, the cartridge is best considered an 'intermediate' round. More horsepower than an M1 Carbine, and less than a full load rifle round, such as .303 British, 7.62x54R, .30-06 Springfield, 7.62 NATO and such.

But there was that demonstration with the watermelons and ammo cans with water. I guess if one can fool a General, one can fool a reporter.

 

[FL-NC]

If they were "high power", wouldn't we see them in High Power matches?

 

[Walkalong]

Years ago the antis had a commercial out where they showed the AR blowing a mellon all to hell. Really impressive (And a big hmmm WTHeck to those of us that knew better). Turns out when making the commercial the AR with FMJ hardly did anything to the mellon, so they switched to something like an .06 to get the effect they wanted. The story eventually came out, but their lie was effective. They have been lying to try to get their way for years.

 

[Jeff H]

If they were "high power", wouldn't we see them in High Power matches?

But we do. Any High Powered match I've been to is mostly AR15s. Especially in the service rifle category.

Staying supersonic further than 600 yards. Certainly seems high powered to me.

 

[Tommygunn]

But we do. Any High Powered match I've been to is mostly AR15s. Especially in the service rifle category.

Staying supersonic further than 600 yards. Certainly seems high powered to me.

"High power?" Would you use a 5.56mm AR-15 on an elephant? Or a 600 Nitro Express?
Look....I won't say the AR is not "high power," but there are other ways of looking at it. "Supersonic further than 6oo yards?" OK, high power. OTOH, some of our servicemen call it a "poodle-shooter." Not so "high power" sounding.
Different people will think differently on this.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

So whether or not you would use it on an elephant makes it high power?

I fond it amusing we chastise the media for using the term when it is a recognised term for which the caliber qualifies in national completions.

If this is wrong then do we blame the media or do we blame ourselves?

 

[kBob]

I once got a hit on an HCI rep at the State Capital thanks to this. He had a group of state legislators and media folks at a table the Florida Department of Law Enforcement had set up "For informational purposes" for the criminal justice committee which was hearing comments on the proposed AW bill. This was the same year the City of Boston and California passed theirs and remarkably entire passages were common to all three sets of legislation but "no collusion, folks, nothing to see, move along."

The Handgun Control Inc guy was going on about the power of the 5.56/.223 and explaining they just wanted to ban guns that could shoot such high powered ammo that had a muzzle velocity such as the 3200 feet per second that the AR he brandish produced.

I pointed to a Winchester 1894 and asked if he was for banning that. "well no old cowboy stuff is not so powerful" I first explained that in terms of foot pounds of energy at the muzzle and through the length of a football field that the .30-30 was MORE powerful. Folks that were looking at me while I spoke now looked at HCI guy. "Well, its the high velocity that makes the Assault weapon so deadly."

I then explained that using Accelerator ammunition such as was then available Over the Counter that the .30-30 fired exactly the same bullet at 200 feet per second faster and that the bolt action .30-06 with that style ammo fired that same bullet 400 feet per second faster and asked if by his stated reasoning he proposed to ban bolt and lever action deer rifles.

He sputtered a good bit with out answering and suddenly the chairman of the Committee (an anti) thought it was time to come to order.

BTW the bill failed in committee after some members changed their stated vote choice. The things that made them change where the antis did not seem to know what guns would actually be banned and the issue of Civil Rights of which the RKBA is one according to the US congress critter that coined the term way back around the 14th amendment debates. Want to guess who brought that nugget up? My two days away from work and at those committee meetings were well worth it. Marian Hammer once told me that afterwards for a year or so when she hit a congressman or woman that was having problems seeing the light she threatened to "bring up that loose cannon from Gainesville".

Now if everyone that whined about how the media portrays firearms around here would spent half as much effort writing their local papers, calling in on local radio talk shows and writing congress critters, we might have less things to complain about!

Media wise I have written my paper and been published in the editorials, been published in a couple of other state papers, been on a couple of local radio shows as an in studio guest, made call ins to other shows, been interviewed and quoted by NPR, appeared on a couple of networks nationally giving a fire arms safety class free during the Gainesville student murders, written many congress critters at state and federal levels, changed one state politicos entire stance on 2AMD issues through giving him good info and the anti he kicked out when he won still does not talk to me in the halls of Shands UF, been a guest at 2AF national meetings and ask to speak in after meeting turnout sessions on mobilizing local support for 2AMD and was a caller on the old Larry King live show specifically on the AW debate and stumped his "expert" on the air.

Basically for the most part the antis and the folks that follow them just really don't know and are scared. YOU have to not scare them when you talk to them and YOU have to show them facts in a way that does not appear aggressive.

Hardest 2AMD chore I ever had? One year second Amendment Foundation at their national asked me to sit with Josh Sugarman to ward off possible grumpies. I have to give him credit for at least showing up to hear "our side" but babysitting him was no fun.

Now stop grumbling at one another and get busy.

Keep it simple, keep it on one topic, and keep it as short as you can get the message across. Avoid personal attacks.

Now go forth!

-kBob

 

[Tommygunn]

So whether or not you would use it on an elephant makes it high power?

I fond it amusing we chastise the media for using the term when it is a recognised term for which the caliber qualifies in national completions.

If this is wrong then do we blame the media or do we blame ourselves?

I would have said dinosaur, but they're all extinct. I'm just saying different people will have different perspectives on cartridge power ~~ like you and me.
No, it doesn't have to take down pachyderms to be high power.....and I suspect the term "poodleshooter" is a bit of sarcasm.

Quite some time I was informed basically, the following:

Cartridges like .22RF, are "low power."

Cartridges similar to .30 Carbine, are "intermediate power."

Cartridges like .30-'06, .270, 300 WinMag are "high-power."

What distinguishes the 3 catagories? Some cartridges will be found in adjacent catagories will probably be very close to each other power wise.

Also, take .30 Carbine. In Vietnam, soldiers who had used both 5.56 and M1 Carbines would claim that both were very similar in killing effectiveness. .30 Carbine, intermediate power.... 5.56mm high power?
See what I'm getting at?

I'm just questioning.....really....not necessarily answering....

 

[rskent]

Quite some time I was informed basically, the following:

Cartridges like .22RF, are "low power."

Cartridges similar to .30 Carbine, are "intermediate power."

Cartridges like .30-'06, .270, 300 WinMag are "high-power."

Interesting, I have never heard of that. I have heard of light, intermediate, and heavy calibers, but never “low power”.