Assault weapons remarks
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HoosierQ
Member
I have gone with a very simple answer. "They are fun to shoot!" (I am making a presumption that despite semantics, we know what everybody means when they say Assault Rifle...even if they are wrong to apply that term).
Let's compare an AR to...let's say...a beautiful Weatherby in .300 Weatherby Magnum. No question which is the more aesthetically pleasing firearm...I mean really! No question that the Weatherby is purely a sporting firearm...clearly. But is it fun to shoot? Well, no. It is not fun to shoot...it is painful to shoot...not to mention expensive. I mean who is going to go to the range and shoot up 500 rounds of .300 Weatherby Magnum? Nobody. I am not even sure that you could do it. Could you find that many rounds for the thing? Would your shoulder take it? Would the barrel take it? How hot would it get?
You are going to Africa to hunt Eland, you're gonna want that .300 Weatherby Magnum. You want to go to the range and shoot centerfire, practice marksmanship, and enjoy your shooting rights, you're going to want an AR or an AK maybe or something that recoils little, dissipates heat well, and won't break the bank.
That's why people need/want to own such firearms...they are fun to shoot!!!
Let's compare an AR to...let's say...a beautiful Weatherby in .300 Weatherby Magnum. No question which is the more aesthetically pleasing firearm...I mean really! No question that the Weatherby is purely a sporting firearm...clearly. But is it fun to shoot? Well, no. It is not fun to shoot...it is painful to shoot...not to mention expensive. I mean who is going to go to the range and shoot up 500 rounds of .300 Weatherby Magnum? Nobody. I am not even sure that you could do it. Could you find that many rounds for the thing? Would your shoulder take it? Would the barrel take it? How hot would it get?
You are going to Africa to hunt Eland, you're gonna want that .300 Weatherby Magnum. You want to go to the range and shoot centerfire, practice marksmanship, and enjoy your shooting rights, you're going to want an AR or an AK maybe or something that recoils little, dissipates heat well, and won't break the bank.
That's why people need/want to own such firearms...they are fun to shoot!!!
Restorer
Member
Several responses:
"Why did you buy a BMW/Mercedes/whatever? Can't you make do with a Chevy? It's my right as a consumer to buy the most modern and best equipped product available. The Minutemen had the most modern products available to them...muskets. They would have had sem-auto muskets had they been on the market."
"You would be singing 'God Save the Queen' now if the Minutemen hadn't had modern weapons. I'm a descendant of Minutemen. Are you trying to tell me I don't have the rights they bled and died for?"
"Because my assault knife can cope with only one enemy at a time."
"Why did you buy a BMW/Mercedes/whatever? Can't you make do with a Chevy? It's my right as a consumer to buy the most modern and best equipped product available. The Minutemen had the most modern products available to them...muskets. They would have had sem-auto muskets had they been on the market."
"You would be singing 'God Save the Queen' now if the Minutemen hadn't had modern weapons. I'm a descendant of Minutemen. Are you trying to tell me I don't have the rights they bled and died for?"
"Because my assault knife can cope with only one enemy at a time."
Carlos Cabeza
Member
I think someone should make a nice checkered walnut stock and Bbl. shroud for an AR and clones. Then it could be all "sporty" like and not scare the sheep with BLACK PLASTIC !!!!!!.
HoosierQ
Member
You know Carlos, there is probably a lot to that...besides just a sarcastic poke of fun at the gun haters. One of my "gun fantasies" is to get a Saiga or maybe an SKS and put really nice wood furniture on it.
With the Saiga I'd go for looking like a Winchester as much as I could given the steel receiver. Wooden stock maybe checkered...with the curved brass butt plate maybe. Then put a barrell band or a brass fore-end cap on it. I might leave the gas tube exposed...but that would be a little risky. I'd keep the hi-cap mags out of sight (but handy) and the look would be there.
On the SKS, either really fix up the SKS stock, take off the bayonet, or put a fancy walnut stock on it, leave it with the 10-rounder, blue the dickens out of everything except the bolt which I'd leave in the white and jewell and voila...a fine sporting arm...with 10-round semi auto capacity.
Fun projects, good guns, and guns that might just do what Carlos said...fool the plastic hating antis.
With the Saiga I'd go for looking like a Winchester as much as I could given the steel receiver. Wooden stock maybe checkered...with the curved brass butt plate maybe. Then put a barrell band or a brass fore-end cap on it. I might leave the gas tube exposed...but that would be a little risky. I'd keep the hi-cap mags out of sight (but handy) and the look would be there.
On the SKS, either really fix up the SKS stock, take off the bayonet, or put a fancy walnut stock on it, leave it with the 10-rounder, blue the dickens out of everything except the bolt which I'd leave in the white and jewell and voila...a fine sporting arm...with 10-round semi auto capacity.
Fun projects, good guns, and guns that might just do what Carlos said...fool the plastic hating antis.
Jon_Snow
Member
I was once told by a coworker that civilians should only be allowed to own single shot, bolt action handguns and rifles because that was adequate for self defense. My response: "If single-shot bolt action is good enough for self defense then firearm technology would have stopped there."
JImbothefiveth
Member
Senior citizens might. While a senior might not be able to take the recoil of a shotgun, a AR-15 (or mini-14) is low recoil and probably light, and easier to aim than a handgun.
Carlos Cabeza
Member
Hoosier,
I'm glad you liked the idea, I think it would have some potential and possibly a decent market from guys like you and me.
On your mag. comment, 1 30rd. or 3 10rd. all the same to me !
I always suggest that nobody pay any attention to my poor attempts at humor, I'm not a comedian and the finer points often elude me.
To me it doesn't matter which side you are on, all deserve the right to protect themselves and their loved ones, by whatever means necessary..
I'm glad you liked the idea, I think it would have some potential and possibly a decent market from guys like you and me.
On your mag. comment, 1 30rd. or 3 10rd. all the same to me !
I always suggest that nobody pay any attention to my poor attempts at humor, I'm not a comedian and the finer points often elude me.
To me it doesn't matter which side you are on, all deserve the right to protect themselves and their loved ones, by whatever means necessary..
Stirling XD
Member
Becasue a cop with an assault weapon is too high maintenance to be stored in the back of my closet.
doublebarrel12
Member
Usually I ask them " why do you feel the need to to impose your beliefs on me" which most respond with " it is my right to free speech" or something like that... Then I ask "why do you vote" , they usually say " it is my 15th amendment right". Then I ask them "would you easily accept my opinion that you shouldn't be able to do either because it is not neccessary to life"... No... Then while they are trying to come up with a good comeback I say
" The 2nd amendment and our keeping it in our bill of rights is what seperates us from the rest of the world, the right to free speech, the right to vote and the right to bear arms solidifies freedom at its greatest. Alot of men died for all our rights, not just the ones you think we should have." .... Usually they walk away, head down!!
" The 2nd amendment and our keeping it in our bill of rights is what seperates us from the rest of the world, the right to free speech, the right to vote and the right to bear arms solidifies freedom at its greatest. Alot of men died for all our rights, not just the ones you think we should have." .... Usually they walk away, head down!!
CountGlockula
Member
See the bottom signature in this post.
Bill_Rights
Member
First, don't use the word "weapon" at all....
Friends,
When I took my CCW/CHP training course, the instructor advised us never to use the word "weapon" to refer to our firearm, gun, rifle, pistol, revolver, carbine, etc. Besides the fact that a shovel, a baseball bat or a knife can be used as an extremely deadly weapon, the word "weapon" itself legally implies a particular usage, which could be construed (again, legally) as the only usage. In fact, we all know that our pistols, rifles, etc. are "tools" or "firearms", in fact. Their usage depends upon what we decide to do with them. So do NOT use a term (i.e., "weapon") that allows or admits of only one usage. I mean, we could use the butt of our firearm as a club-type weapon, but we could also use it to hammer a nail. Get it?! Do NOT use a term that paints you into a corrner.
Beyond that, check out this glossary of terms (which I am sure has been referred to numerous times on THR). It will give you the right frame of mind and word-tools with which to speak with an "anti", and even more importantly, to speak with someone who is sounding kinda "anti" but can be won over to our RKBA cause. It is Alan Korwin's Glossary of Politically Corrected Gun Terms.
Cheers, Bill R
Friends,
When I took my CCW/CHP training course, the instructor advised us never to use the word "weapon" to refer to our firearm, gun, rifle, pistol, revolver, carbine, etc. Besides the fact that a shovel, a baseball bat or a knife can be used as an extremely deadly weapon, the word "weapon" itself legally implies a particular usage, which could be construed (again, legally) as the only usage. In fact, we all know that our pistols, rifles, etc. are "tools" or "firearms", in fact. Their usage depends upon what we decide to do with them. So do NOT use a term (i.e., "weapon") that allows or admits of only one usage. I mean, we could use the butt of our firearm as a club-type weapon, but we could also use it to hammer a nail. Get it?! Do NOT use a term that paints you into a corrner.
Beyond that, check out this glossary of terms (which I am sure has been referred to numerous times on THR). It will give you the right frame of mind and word-tools with which to speak with an "anti", and even more importantly, to speak with someone who is sounding kinda "anti" but can be won over to our RKBA cause. It is Alan Korwin's Glossary of Politically Corrected Gun Terms.
Cheers, Bill R
Ed Ames
Member
This has been mentioned before, but:
A great and positive way to turn the conversation is to ask them what they mean by "assault weapon".
They will usually start with a bunch of misconceptions... designed to fire from the hip (no rifle is), full automatic (sale of new FA guns to civilians has been illegal for decades, and has been heavily regulated for about 75 years), abnormally fast firing (no faster than most shotguns used for target shooting and hunting), designed to be cheap death (the standard AR-15 starts at about $1000 and quickly doubles that, vs. a semi-auto hunting rifle for $350), et cetera.
I think weapon is a fine word and should be used. People can detect dissembling and frankly firearms ARE weapons. Now, I agree 100% that you have to be careful with some words. You shouldn't refer to just anyone who has been shot as a "victim" for example... if someone shoots an attacker, the attacker stays "the attacker" even if they are now dead. They are not the victim of the defender or her gun, they are a stopped attacker.
Of course, that's if you want to further the RKBA cause. If you just want them to stop talking to you just ask them if your hand smells funny.
A great and positive way to turn the conversation is to ask them what they mean by "assault weapon".
They will usually start with a bunch of misconceptions... designed to fire from the hip (no rifle is), full automatic (sale of new FA guns to civilians has been illegal for decades, and has been heavily regulated for about 75 years), abnormally fast firing (no faster than most shotguns used for target shooting and hunting), designed to be cheap death (the standard AR-15 starts at about $1000 and quickly doubles that, vs. a semi-auto hunting rifle for $350), et cetera.
I think weapon is a fine word and should be used. People can detect dissembling and frankly firearms ARE weapons. Now, I agree 100% that you have to be careful with some words. You shouldn't refer to just anyone who has been shot as a "victim" for example... if someone shoots an attacker, the attacker stays "the attacker" even if they are now dead. They are not the victim of the defender or her gun, they are a stopped attacker.
Of course, that's if you want to further the RKBA cause. If you just want them to stop talking to you just ask them if your hand smells funny.
irishsquid
Member
Here's my approach:
We don't NEED alcohol.
We don't NEED tobacco.
We don't NEED motorcycles.
We don't NEED jet skis.
There are lot's of things we don't NEED but that doesn't mean they should be illegal.
I then point out that of all of the things we don't NEED, the right to own firearms is so important that the founding fathers thought it needed to be constitutionally protected.
I usually follow up with all the standard arguments in defense of "assault weapons".
On a side note, it has always amazed me that the American Sheeple think the term "assault weapons" means fully automatic weapons. Of course, when the mainstream television media starts talking about "assault weapons" they almost invariably show someone blazing away with a full-auto AK-47.
We don't NEED alcohol.
We don't NEED tobacco.
We don't NEED motorcycles.
We don't NEED jet skis.
There are lot's of things we don't NEED but that doesn't mean they should be illegal.
I then point out that of all of the things we don't NEED, the right to own firearms is so important that the founding fathers thought it needed to be constitutionally protected.
I usually follow up with all the standard arguments in defense of "assault weapons".
On a side note, it has always amazed me that the American Sheeple think the term "assault weapons" means fully automatic weapons. Of course, when the mainstream television media starts talking about "assault weapons" they almost invariably show someone blazing away with a full-auto AK-47.
Bill_Rights
Member
When Ed Ames said
Of course, I was a little side-tracked from discussing assault rifles with antis. My caution against using the word "weapon" is more specifically applicable to interaction with law enforcement and court personnel, for ex. after you have had to draw or use your sidearm in self-defense. In that and similar situations, anything you say matters and can be used against you. In this regard, I may be a bit overly sensitive because I am from Virginia, USA. Apparently, we've had some court cases where this came into play - I do not have citations handy, but could find them. Also, in VA we have CHPs = Concealed Handgun Permits, not CCW permits. Just because you hold a CHP does NOT mean you can carry a switchblade long knife, for ex., or other non-firearm weapon, unless it would be OK for anybody and everybody to be carrying such weapons.
Generally, I agree, that it would be ideal if we could use the word "weapon" interchangably with "firearm", "gun", etc. That would mean that everybody understands and agrees that Americans have a Constitutional right to be armed with "weapons", which we do, but only if they are firearm-type weapons. And not everybody understands and agrees. The Constitution clearly gives special "standing" to firearm-type weapons over all other types of weapons. I think we should respect that distinction in our speech.
just note that calling a rifle a rifle or a firearm, rather than calling it a weapon, is not dissembling, and it will flow naturally off the tongue. It doesn't hurt to use the word weapon from time to time, if it happens naturally, and you are referring to the specific use of a firearm as a weapon. However, it is overkill and possibly a little bit of grandstanding to shoot paper targets with your "weapon". Many other examples. When teaching youngsters gun safety and maintenance, it is grandiose to be constantly referring to the gun as a weapon, as in "next we'll show you how to safely repair the rocket engine of an ICBM weapon".
Of course, I was a little side-tracked from discussing assault rifles with antis. My caution against using the word "weapon" is more specifically applicable to interaction with law enforcement and court personnel, for ex. after you have had to draw or use your sidearm in self-defense. In that and similar situations, anything you say matters and can be used against you. In this regard, I may be a bit overly sensitive because I am from Virginia, USA. Apparently, we've had some court cases where this came into play - I do not have citations handy, but could find them. Also, in VA we have CHPs = Concealed Handgun Permits, not CCW permits. Just because you hold a CHP does NOT mean you can carry a switchblade long knife, for ex., or other non-firearm weapon, unless it would be OK for anybody and everybody to be carrying such weapons.
Generally, I agree, that it would be ideal if we could use the word "weapon" interchangably with "firearm", "gun", etc. That would mean that everybody understands and agrees that Americans have a Constitutional right to be armed with "weapons", which we do, but only if they are firearm-type weapons. And not everybody understands and agrees. The Constitution clearly gives special "standing" to firearm-type weapons over all other types of weapons. I think we should respect that distinction in our speech.
SpecialKalltheway
Member
I used the "define assault weapon" stance against an anti on another forum and this is the response I got
"assault weapon
–noun
any of various automatic and semiautomatic military firearms utilizing an intermediate-power cartridge, designed for individual use."
I didn't know 2 words made up a noun. He turned out to be a huge troll, so debating him further was pretty pointless.
"assault weapon
–noun
any of various automatic and semiautomatic military firearms utilizing an intermediate-power cartridge, designed for individual use."
I didn't know 2 words made up a noun. He turned out to be a huge troll, so debating him further was pretty pointless.
Ed Ames
Member
I was coming from the context of "Assault weapons remarks." You should not try to make out that your firearm isn't a weapon...it is and you should be comfortable with that fact.
I have seen a well-meaning gun owner lured into the "my gun isn't a weapon" argument and frankly it didn't go well for the gun owner. Of course their gun is a weapon. You may not think of it as a weapon but it is.
I think the word "firearm" is great, especially in conversations with people who consider "gun" to be somewhat vulgar.
ETA for specialK -- "So firearms manufactured for sale to civilians cannot be assault weapons because your definition says 'assault weapons' are 'military firearms'."
I have seen a well-meaning gun owner lured into the "my gun isn't a weapon" argument and frankly it didn't go well for the gun owner. Of course their gun is a weapon. You may not think of it as a weapon but it is.
I think the word "firearm" is great, especially in conversations with people who consider "gun" to be somewhat vulgar.
ETA for specialK -- "So firearms manufactured for sale to civilians cannot be assault weapons because your definition says 'assault weapons' are 'military firearms'."
Blackbeard
Member
Agreed. We don't have a constitutionally guaranteed right to keep and bear sporting goods.
lanternlad1
Member
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2007
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I tell them that the most deadly weapon in the history of man is the human hand. It does not matter what is placed within it, if malice is wanted, malice is achieved.
Think on that, grasshopper...
That usually gets me a blank stare.
Think on that, grasshopper...
That usually gets me a blank stare.
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