GoRon
Member
A defeated sovereign nation in material breach of the cease fire agreement.
Be all you can be.
- Thread starter Pocket.38
- Start date
- Status
A defeated sovereign nation in material breach of the cease fire agreement.
Amusetec
Member
javafiend-They did not violate airspace of a sovereign nation. Just one that we had a cease fire with and in the cease fire we had fly rights.
CHECK THE FACTS. there was a no fly zone in north and south. that was since the end of the Gulf war. Which this is just the continuation of the Gulf War.
so you see this is not a new war with IRAQ just a start up and finish of the 1991 war.
Jr. Just finishing up what Sr. Started
Strings
Member
*sigh*
This thread almost makes me ashamed of my grandfather. Grandad was lost saving France's bacon from Hitler...
The sacrifices were made so that our freedoms would be preserved. One of those is the freedom of speech: to say what we feel like, without serious worry that government will "come down on us" because we don't agree with it. Yet there are those here, screaming about their patriotism, and demanding that anyone who doesn't agree with the givernment should leave the country? Is THAT REALLY what my grandad died for?
As for this:
>but you failed to acknowledge, or perhaps just ignored the fact that the Vietnam War was the result of the politicians LIES. If you want to blame someone for those deaths, how about blaming the people that got us involved in the first place? The Gulf of Tonkin incident, the very reason we sent our military to the region, NEVER HAPPENED.<
Wether Tonkin happened or not, the saddest thing about 'Nam was that it was unnesessary. According to my understanding, at the close of WWII, Ho Chi Minh BEGGED the US to take Vietnam as a protectorate. We didn't, to avoid offending (drum roll)... the French...
So regardless or the oucome, the deaths of servicemen there was pointless (even had we won)...
This thread almost makes me ashamed of my grandfather. Grandad was lost saving France's bacon from Hitler...
The sacrifices were made so that our freedoms would be preserved. One of those is the freedom of speech: to say what we feel like, without serious worry that government will "come down on us" because we don't agree with it. Yet there are those here, screaming about their patriotism, and demanding that anyone who doesn't agree with the givernment should leave the country? Is THAT REALLY what my grandad died for?
As for this:
>but you failed to acknowledge, or perhaps just ignored the fact that the Vietnam War was the result of the politicians LIES. If you want to blame someone for those deaths, how about blaming the people that got us involved in the first place? The Gulf of Tonkin incident, the very reason we sent our military to the region, NEVER HAPPENED.<
Wether Tonkin happened or not, the saddest thing about 'Nam was that it was unnesessary. According to my understanding, at the close of WWII, Ho Chi Minh BEGGED the US to take Vietnam as a protectorate. We didn't, to avoid offending (drum roll)... the French...
So regardless or the oucome, the deaths of servicemen there was pointless (even had we won)...Balog
Member
Ok, I don't have time to read all 8 freakin pages (what with being in Iraq and all) but I'll just lay out my reasons for the choices I've made.
I really, really hate people who are willing to destroy innocents to achieve their own political/ideological goals. Joining the Marine Corps infantry gives me a chance to kill lots of these kind of people in a relatively short time. Makes all the stupid stuff, time away from my wife, and danger seem worthwhile. Because these bastards need killing. And I want to take care of that need.
I don't give a f*** about Iraq or Iraqis. I don't care why I'm here. All I care about is getting the chance to wax these sub-humans. I'd join the freakin Animal Liberation Front if it let me kill more of them. Sorta like Finns during WW2. They weren't Nazi's, they just wanted to kill Russians.
I really, really hate people who are willing to destroy innocents to achieve their own political/ideological goals. Joining the Marine Corps infantry gives me a chance to kill lots of these kind of people in a relatively short time. Makes all the stupid stuff, time away from my wife, and danger seem worthwhile. Because these bastards need killing. And I want to take care of that need.
I don't give a f*** about Iraq or Iraqis. I don't care why I'm here. All I care about is getting the chance to wax these sub-humans. I'd join the freakin Animal Liberation Front if it let me kill more of them. Sorta like Finns during WW2. They weren't Nazi's, they just wanted to kill Russians.
DRZinn
Member
Oo-rah!
No_Brakes23
Member
Semper Fi.
Most respectfully
We lost in Vietnam for many reasons, large among them the fact that we interjected ourselves in another country's affairs on bogus pretenses. When you are between sides in an internal dispute, you BETTER understand every nuance of what's happening if you want to intercede effectively. Killing, in such situations, creates many more enemies than it eliminates.
I have more respect for the people who spit on us when we came home from Vietnam than I do, the creeps who avoided all personal commitment but "supported the war." It was an eye-opening day in Cambodia when I realized that I was there because draft dodgers and jerks who were taking advantage of our absence to get ahead were more my enemy than the people who wanted us out. I was not raised to be a murderer for rotten causes, but I'll live with the guilt of it for however long I have.
For example, although I haven't spoken to my brother in years, if someone else shot him, they'd be looking up my sights narrow end first. You'd do the same, and that's what the Vietnamese and now Iraqis are doing.
As many of us have discovered, that is impossible even when the dispute is among members of our own families. To pretend that we could do so effectively in an alien culture, where we understood (or understand) virtually nothing of what had gone on before, or what happened in front of us.
Our current leaders are sleazy, profiteering cowards, bullies and incompetents, and I'm probably being too kind. And don't tell me to get out; I'm Cherokee, I volunteered for both tours in Vietnam, and this is my country.
I am perplexed and astonished by my fellow vets, or people who claim to be vets, who seem to have learned what they know about Vietnam from Rambo movies...another enterprise of another exploitive draft dodger.
When we withdraw, as we will, from Iraq, it will be seen as a "bad war," which it certainly is, and Bush, who has never taken a single stand that caused him any pain, will shaft Iraq vets just as we of previous wars have been shafted. Meanwhile, Iraq will fight its civil war and nobody knows how that's going to affect things.
There are obviously a lot of really good people on this forum, on both sides of the issues. But gentlemen, and presumably ladies, reality does not fit on a bumper sticker, and it does not intrude into the contemplations of most of our "leaders."
Please don't waste our time with your slogans, no matter how blindly you adhere to them. Our country has blown it, in a series of the worst, most corrupt blunders in our history. From the sacrifice of our military, among the best of our best, they are extracting hideous profit. They do not care who wins, as long as they keep raking in billions of our hard-earned dollars, and those of our children and grandchildren. The damage they have done, both in the US and to our standing in the world, is incalculably larger than anything Al Qaeda could have dreamed of.
If only it hadn't all been so thoroughly predicted, and ignored or suppressed. Remember, nobody fits an ambush as well as a fool.
Gentleman Jim
We lost in Vietnam for many reasons, large among them the fact that we interjected ourselves in another country's affairs on bogus pretenses. When you are between sides in an internal dispute, you BETTER understand every nuance of what's happening if you want to intercede effectively. Killing, in such situations, creates many more enemies than it eliminates.
I have more respect for the people who spit on us when we came home from Vietnam than I do, the creeps who avoided all personal commitment but "supported the war." It was an eye-opening day in Cambodia when I realized that I was there because draft dodgers and jerks who were taking advantage of our absence to get ahead were more my enemy than the people who wanted us out. I was not raised to be a murderer for rotten causes, but I'll live with the guilt of it for however long I have.
For example, although I haven't spoken to my brother in years, if someone else shot him, they'd be looking up my sights narrow end first. You'd do the same, and that's what the Vietnamese and now Iraqis are doing.
As many of us have discovered, that is impossible even when the dispute is among members of our own families. To pretend that we could do so effectively in an alien culture, where we understood (or understand) virtually nothing of what had gone on before, or what happened in front of us.
Our current leaders are sleazy, profiteering cowards, bullies and incompetents, and I'm probably being too kind. And don't tell me to get out; I'm Cherokee, I volunteered for both tours in Vietnam, and this is my country.
I am perplexed and astonished by my fellow vets, or people who claim to be vets, who seem to have learned what they know about Vietnam from Rambo movies...another enterprise of another exploitive draft dodger.
When we withdraw, as we will, from Iraq, it will be seen as a "bad war," which it certainly is, and Bush, who has never taken a single stand that caused him any pain, will shaft Iraq vets just as we of previous wars have been shafted. Meanwhile, Iraq will fight its civil war and nobody knows how that's going to affect things.
There are obviously a lot of really good people on this forum, on both sides of the issues. But gentlemen, and presumably ladies, reality does not fit on a bumper sticker, and it does not intrude into the contemplations of most of our "leaders."
Please don't waste our time with your slogans, no matter how blindly you adhere to them. Our country has blown it, in a series of the worst, most corrupt blunders in our history. From the sacrifice of our military, among the best of our best, they are extracting hideous profit. They do not care who wins, as long as they keep raking in billions of our hard-earned dollars, and those of our children and grandchildren. The damage they have done, both in the US and to our standing in the world, is incalculably larger than anything Al Qaeda could have dreamed of.
If only it hadn't all been so thoroughly predicted, and ignored or suppressed. Remember, nobody fits an ambush as well as a fool.
Gentleman Jim
GoRon
Member
Gentleman Jim
What was/is the alternate plan? Do nothing? Sanctions?
What about Iran,Syria,SA and the rest? We just let them or elements of their government plot our destruction while we do nothing?
Confusing Vietnam with Iraq is a big mistake.
What was/is the alternate plan? Do nothing? Sanctions?
What about Iran,Syria,SA and the rest? We just let them or elements of their government plot our destruction while we do nothing?
Confusing Vietnam with Iraq is a big mistake.
DRZinn
Member
Why does that sound so familiar? Oh yeah. "It's a war for oil, so Bush's friends can get rich."
PaulV
Member
Duelfer Report
Summary: No pile of chemical munitions with signs reading "WMD here" found (just a few shells and rockets, a little Sarin never hurt anyone, right?), but plenty of indication that there was something big in the works for the future.
Summary: No pile of chemical munitions with signs reading "WMD here" found (just a few shells and rockets, a little Sarin never hurt anyone, right?), but plenty of indication that there was something big in the works for the future.
ebd10
Member
First, they would probably be less inclined to plot our destruction if we just bought their oil and went home.
Second, instead of bringing the level of military readiness up and down like a yo-yo, we should at all times be prepared to drop the hammer on those that seek harm for us.
Finally, we should elevate the capability of our intelligence community to be able to warn us when something is going to happen.
Most importantly, we should elect leaders, not managers. The Lawyers and business school grads that we've put in government have done nothing but set themselves up as the new royalty in this country, passing out 'get out of jail free' cards to their cronies, while destroying our sovereignty and our economy.
Unfortunately, I don't think any of the above will happen. We're on our fourth generation of Joe Sixpacks that have been taught to think that we are subordinate to the government.
bountyhunter
member
The problem facing the US is that at the present time, because of the actions of the last three years, about 1 billion Muslims believe the sentence above describes the US foreign policy both in objective and action.... and ultimately, a stable peace will require we can at least co-exist with those people.
It defines how and why there is a generation of young people standing in line for a chance to blow themselves up.
And we can debate the relative "wisdom" of it all day long, but the ultimate truth is:
No war in history has ever been won by killing enough of "them", wars are only won by completely destroying your enemy's willingness to fight on.
Period.
And the foreign policy the US is currently on is having the opposite effect against our enemies in the WOT.
Vern Humphrey
Member
If that's true, explain how most of the people killed fighting on our side in this war are Muslims?
jeff-10
Member
Yeah and before the war on terror the Muslims just left us alone. US Embassy in Iran, Beirut, Pam AM FLight 103, Khobar Towers, Kenya and Tanzinia Embassies, USS Cole were all just a big misunderstanding. They used to love us.
Liberals are so realistic, I just love there great rallying cry, "can't we all just get along!"
ebd10
Member
No, they were terrorist attacks perpetrated by an elusive and fanatic enemy. Unfortunately, we can't point to a particular country and say, "They are the ones that committed this act. If we do a, b, and c, it will stop this type of incident." A lot of these groups hate each other as much as they hate us, but only therir attacks against us gets publicity. Al Qaeda is the current favorite enemy, but before them was Hamas, Hezbollah, the Abu Nidal faction, Carlos the Jackal's bunch, the Red Brigades, Baader-Meinhoff, the PLO, and on, and on, and on. The only thing that makes the current situation unique is that we have responded with brute force. Afghanistan was their base, we eliminated that base, now they are on the run.
Iraq is a sideshow. Hussein was bottled up for 13 years. If he was such a threat to us, we should have eliminated him in '91. Unfortunately, once again a sitting president put political expediency before the security of our nation.
PaulV
Member
Yeah our imperialist aggression against the peaceful Islamic republic of Iraq in 2003 caused all of this.
Attack on the Munich Airport, February 10, 1970:
Munich Olympic Massacre, September 5, 1972:
Ambassador to Sudan Assassinated, March 2, 1973:
Attack and Hijacking at the Rome Airport, December 17, 1973:
Entebbe Hostage Crisis, June 27, 1976:
Ambassador to Afghanistan Assassinated, February 14, 1979:
Iran Hostage Crisis, November 4, 1979:
Grand Mosque Seizure, November 20, 1979: 200 Islamic terrorists seized the Grand Mosque in Mecca, Saudi Arabia, taking hundreds of pilgrims hostage.
Assassination of Egyptian President, October 6, 1981:
Assassination of Lebanese President, September 14, 1982:
Bombing of U.S. Embassy in Beirut, April 18, 1983: Sixty-three people, including the CIA’s Middle East director, were killed and 120 were injured.
The Bombing of Marine Barracks, Beirut, October 23, 1983: Simultaneous suicide truck-bomb attacks were made on American and French compounds in Beirut, Lebanon. A 12,000-pound bomb destroyed the U.S. compound, killing 242 Americans, while 58 French troops were killed when a 400-pound device destroyed a French base.
Naval Officer Assassinated in Greece, November 15, 1983:
Kidnapping of Embassy Official, March 16, 1984: The Islamic Jihad kidnapped and later murdered Political Officer William Buckley in Beirut.
TWA Hijacking, June 14, 1985: A Trans-World Airlines flight was hijacked en route to Rome from Athens by two Lebanese Hizballah terrorists.
Soviet Diplomats Kidnapped, September 30, 1985: In Beirut, Lebanon, Sunni terrorists kidnapped four Soviet diplomats.
Achille Lauro Hijacking, October 7, 1985: Four Palestinian Liberation Front terrorists seized the Italian cruise liner in the eastern Mediterranean Sea, taking more than 700 hostages.
Egyptian Airliner Hijacking, November 23, 1985: An EgyptAir airplane bound from Athens to Malta and carrying several U.S. citizens was hijacked by the Abu Nidal Group.
Airport Attacks in Rome and Vienna, December 27, 1985: Four gunmen belonging to the Abu Nidal Organization attacked the El Al and Trans World Airlines ticket counters at Rome’s Leonardo da Vinci Airport with grenades and automatic rifles.
Aircraft Bombing in Greece, March 30, 1986: A Palestinian splinter group detonated a bomb as TWA Flight 840 approached Athens airport, killing four U.S. citizens.
Berlin Discothèque Bombing, April 5, 1986: Two U.S. soldiers were killed and 79 American servicemen were injured in a Libyan bomb attack on a nightclub in West Berlin, West Germany.
Kidnapping of William Higgins, February 17, 1988: U.S. Marine Corps Lieutenant Colonel W. Higgins was kidnapped and murdered by the Hizballah group.
Naples USO Attack, April 14, 1988: The Organization of Jihad Brigades exploded a car-bomb outside a USO Club in Naples, Italy, killing one U.S. sailor.
Attack on U.S. Diplomat in Greece, June 28, 1988: The Defense Attaché of the U.S. Embassy in Greece was killed when a car-bomb was detonated outside his home in Athens.
Pan Am 103 Bombing, December 21, 1988: Pan American Airlines Flight 103 was blown up over Lockerbie, Scotland, by a bomb believed to have been placed on the aircraft by Libyan terrorists in Frankfurt, West Germany. All 259 people on board were killed.
Bombing of UTA Flight 772, September 19, 1989: A bomb explosion destroyed UTA Flight 772 over the Sahara Desert in southern Niger during a flight from Brazzaville to Paris. All 170 persons aboard were killed.
Attempted Iraqi Attacks on U.S. Posts, January 18-19, 1991:
Bombing of the Israeli Embassy in Argentina, March 17, 1992: Hizballah claimed responsibility for a blast that leveled the Israeli Embassy in Buenos Aires, Argentina, causing the deaths of 29 and wounding 242.
World Trade Center Bombing, February 26, 1993:
Attempted Assassination of President Bush by Iraqi Agents, April 14, 1993: The Iraqi intelligence service attempted to assassinate former U.S. President George Bush during a visit to Kuwait.
Air France Hijacking, December 24, 1994: Members of the Armed Islamic Group seized an Air France Flight to Algeria.
Attack on U.S. Diplomats in Pakistan, March 8, 1995: Two unidentified gunmen killed two U.S. diplomats and wounded a third in Karachi, Pakistan.
Kashmiri Hostage-taking, July 4, 1995:
Jerusalem Bus Attack, August 21, 1995: HAMAS claimed responsibility for the detonation of a bomb that killed 6 and injured over 100 persons, including several U.S. citizens.
Saudi Military Installation Attack, November 13, 1995: The Islamic Movement of Change planted a bomb in a Riyadh military compound that killed one U.S. citizen, several foreign national employees of the U.S. government, and over 40 others.
Egyptian Embassy Attack, November 19, 1995: A suicide bomber drove a vehicle into the Egyptian Embassy compound in Islamabad, Pakistan, killing at least 16 and injuring 60 persons.
HAMAS Bus Attack, February 26, 1996: In Jerusalem, a suicide bomber blew up a bus, killing 26 persons, including three U.S. citizens, and injuring some 80 persons, including three other US citizens.
Dizengoff Center Bombing, March 4, 1996: HAMAS and the Palestine Islamic Jihad (PIJ) both claimed responsibility for a bombing outside of Tel Aviv's largest shopping mall that killed 20 persons and injured 75 others, including 2 U.S. citizens.
West Bank Attack, May 13, 1996:
Zekharya Attack, June 9, 1996:
Khobar Towers Bombing, June 25, 1996: A fuel truck carrying a bomb exploded outside the US military's Khobar Towers housing facility in Dhahran, killing 19 U.S. military personnel and wounding 515 persons, including 240 U.S. personnel.
Bombing of Archbishop of Oran, August 1, 1996: A bomb exploded at the home of the French Archbishop of Oran, killing him and his chauffeur.
Sudanese Rebel Kidnapping, August 17, 1996:
Red Cross Worker Kidnappings, November 1, 1996:
Paris Subway Explosion, December 3, 1996: A bomb exploded aboard a Paris subway train as it arrived at the Port Royal station.
Egyptian Letter Bombs, January 2-13, 1997: A series of letter bombs with Alexandria, Egypt, postmarks were discovered at Al-Hayat newspaper bureaus in Washington, New York City, London, and Riyadh, Saudi Arabia.
Tajik Hostage Abductions, February 4-17, 1997:
Empire State Building Sniper Attack, February 23, 1997: A Palestinian gunman opened fire on tourists at an observation deck atop the Empire State Building in New York City, killing a Danish national and wounding visitors from the United States, Argentina, Switzerland, and France before turning the gun on himself.
Israeli Shopping Mall Bombing, September 4, 1997: Three suicide bombers of HAMAS detonated bombs in the Ben Yehuda shopping mall in Jerusalem, killing eight persons, including the bombers, and wounding nearly 200 others.
Yemeni Kidnappings, October 30, 1997: Al-Sha'if tribesmen kidnapped a U.S. businessman near Sanaa.
Murder of U.S. Businessmen in Pakistan, November 12, 1997: Two unidentified gunmen shot to death four U.S. auditors from Union Texas Petroleum Corporation and their Pakistani driver.
Tourist Killings in Egypt, November 17, 1997: Al-Gama'at al-Islamiyya (IG) gunmen shot and killed 58 tourists and four Egyptians and wounded 26 others at the Hatshepsut Temple in the Valley of the Kings near Luxor.
Somali Hostage-takings, April 15, 1998: Somali militiamen abducted nine Red Cross and Red Crescent workers at an airstrip north of Mogadishu.
U.S. Embassy Bombings in East Africa, August 7, 1998: A bomb exploded at the rear entrance of the U.S. Embassy in Nairobi, Kenya, killing 12 U.S. citizens, 32 Foreign Service Nationals (FSNs), and 247 Kenyan citizens. Approximately 5,000 Kenyans, 6 U.S. citizens, and 13 FSNs were injured.
Kidnappings in Kyrgyzstan, August 12, 2000: In the Kara-Su Valley, the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan took four U.S. citizens hostage.
Church Bombing in Tajikistan, October 1, 2000: Unidentified militants detonated two bombs in a Christian church in Dushanbe, killing seven persons and injuring 70 others. The church was founded by a Korean-born U.S. citizen, and most of those killed and wounded were Korean.
Attack on U.S.S. Cole, October 12, 2000: In Aden, Yemen, a small dingy carrying explosives rammed the destroyer U.S.S. Cole, killing 17 sailors and injuring 39 others. Supporters of Usama Bin Laden were suspected.
Manila Bombing, December 30, 2000: A bomb exploded in a plaza across the street from the U.S. Embassy in Manila, injuring nine persons. The Moro Islamic Liberation Front was likely responsible.
Suicide Bombing in Israel, March 4, 2001:
Airliner Hijacking in Istanbul, March 15, 2001: Three Chechens hijacked a Russian airliner during a flight from Istanbul to Moscow and forced it to fly to Medina, Saudi Arabia.
Bus Stop Bombing, April 22, 2001: A member of HAMAS detonated a bomb he was carrying near a bus stop in Kfar Siva, Israel, killing one person and injuring 60.
Philippines Hostage Incident, May 27, 2001: Muslim Abu Sayyaf guerrillas seized 13 tourists and 3 staff members at a resort on Palawan Island and took their captives to Basilan Island.
Tel-Aviv Nightclub Bombing, June 1, 2001: HAMAS claimed responsibility for the suicide bombing of a popular Israeli nightclub that caused over 140 casualties.
HAMAS Restaurant Bombing, August 9, 2001: A HAMAS-planted bomb detonated in a Jerusalem pizza restaurant, killing 15 people and wounding more than 90.
Suicide Bombing in Israel, September 9, 2001:
Death of "the Lion of the Panjshir", September 9, 2001: Two suicide bombers fatally wounded Ahmed Shah Massoud, a leader of Afghanistan’s Northern Alliance, which had opposed both the Soviet occupation and the post-Soviet Taliban government. The bombers were apparently linked to al-Qaida.
Terrorist Attacks on U.S. Homeland, September 11, 2001:
Attack on the Jammu and Kashmir Legislature, October 1, 2001: After a suicide car bomber forced the gate of the state legislature in Srinagar, two gunmen entered the building and held off police for seven hours before being killed. Forty persons died in the incident.
Assassination of an Israeli Cabinet Minister, October 17, 2001: A Palestinian gunman assassinated Israeli Minister of Tourism Rehavam Zeevi in the Jerusalem hotel where he was staying. .
Attack on a Church in Pakistan, October 28, 2001: Six masked gunmen shot up a church in Bahawalpur, Pakistan, killing 15 Pakistani Christians.
Suicide Bombings in Jerusalem, December 1, 2001: Two suicide bombers attacked a Jerusalem shopping mall, killing 10 persons and wounding 170.
Suicide Bombing in Haifa, December 2, 2001: A suicide bomb attack aboard a bus in Haifa, Israel, killed 15 persons and wounded 40.
Attack on the Indian Parliament, December 13, 2001: Five gunmen attacked the Indian Parliament in New Delhi shortly after it had adjourned. Before security forces killed them, the attackers killed 6 security personnel and a gardener.
Ambush on the West Bank, January 15, 2002: Palestinian militants fired on a vehicle in Beit Sahur, killing one passenger and wounding the other. The dead passenger claimed U.S. and Israeli citizenship.
Shooting Incident in Israel, January 17, 2002: A Palestinian gunman killed 6 persons and wounded 25 in Hadera, Israel, before being killed by Israeli police.
Drive-By Shooting at a U.S. Consulate, January 22, 2002: Armed militants on motorcycles fired on the U.S. Consulate in Calcutta, India, killing 5 Indian security personnel and wounding 13 others.
Kidnapping of Daniel Pearl, January 23, 2002: Armed militants kidnapped Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl in Karachi, Pakistan. Pakistani authorities received a videotape on February 20 depicting Pearl’s murder. His grave was found near Karachi on May 16. Pakistani authorities arrested four suspects.
Suicide Bombing in Jerusalem, January 27, 2002: A suicide bomb attack in Jerusalem killed one other person and wounded 100.
Suicide Bombing in the West Bank, February 16, 2002: A suicide bombing in an outdoor food court in Karmei Shomron killed 4 persons and wounded 27. Two of the dead and two of the wounded were U.S. citizens.
Suicide Bombing in the West Bank, March 7, 2002: A suicide bombing in a supermarket in the settlement of Ariel wounded 10 persons, one of whom was a U.S. citizen.
Suicide Bombing in Jerusalem, March 9, 2002: A suicide bombing in a Jerusalem restaurant killed 11 persons and wounded 52, one of whom was a U.S. citizen.
Grenade Attack on a Church in Pakistan, March 17, 2002: Militants threw grenades into the Protestant International Church in Islamabad, Pakistan, during a service attended by diplomatic and local personnel. Five persons, two of them U.S. citizens, were killed and 46 were wounded. The dead Americans were State Department employee Barbara Green and her daughter Kristen Wormsley. Thirteen U.S. citizens were among the wounded.
Suicide Bombing in Jerusalem, March 21, 2002: A suicide bombing in Jerusalem killed 3 persons and wounded 86 more, including 2 U.S. citizens.
Suicide Bombing in Israel, March 27, 2002: A suicide bombing in a noted restaurant in Netanya, Israel, killed 22 persons and wounded 140. One of the dead was a U.S. citizen.
Temple Bombing in Kashmir, March 30, 2002: A bomb explosion at a Hindu temple in Jammu, Kashmir, killed 10 persons.
Suicide Bombing in the West Bank, March 31, 2002: A suicide bombing near an ambulance station in Efrat wounded four persons, including a U.S. citizen.
Synagogue Bombing in Tunisia, April 11, 2002: A suicide bomber detonated a truck loaded with propane gas outside a historic synagogue in Djerba, Tunisia. The 16 dead included 11 Germans, one French citizen, and three Tunisians. Twenty-six German tourists were injured. The Islamic Army for the Liberation of the Holy Sites claimed responsibility.
Suicide Bombing in Jerusalem, April 12, 2002: A female suicide bomber killed 6 persons in Jerusalem and wounded 90 others.
Car Bombing in Pakistan, May 8, 2002: A car bomb exploded near a Pakistani navy shuttle bus in Karachi, killing 12 persons and wounding 19. Eleven of the dead and 11 of the wounded were French nationals. Al-Qaida was suspected of the attack.
Parade Bombing in Russia, May 9, 2002: A remotely-controlled bomb exploded near a May Day parade in Kaspiisk, Dagestan, killing 42 persons and wounding 150. Fourteen of the dead and 50 of the wounded were soldiers. Islamists linked to al-Qaida were suspected.
Attack on a Bus in India, May 14, 2002: Militants fired on a passenger bus in Kaluchak, Jammu, killing 7 persons. They then entered a military housing complex and killed 3 soldiers and 7 military dependents before they were killed.
Bomb Attacks in Kashmir, May 17, 2002: A bomb explosion near a civil secretariat area in Srinagar, Kashmir, wounded 6 persons. In Jammu, a bomb exploded at a fire services headquarters, killing two and wounding 16.
Car Bombing in Pakistan, June 14, 2002: A car bomb exploded near the U.S. Consulate and the Marriott Hotel in Karachi, Pakistan. Eleven persons were killed and 51 were sounded, including one U.S. and one Japanese citizen. Al Qaida and al-Qanin were suspected.
Suicide Bombing in Jerusalem, June 19, 2002: A suicide bombing at a bus stop in Jerusalem killed 6 persons and wounded 43, including 2 U.S. citizens.
Suicide Bombing in Tel Aviv, July 17, 2002: Two suicide bombers attacked the old bus station in Tel Aviv, Israel, killing 5 persons and wounding 38.
Bombing at the Hebrew University, July 31, 2002: A bomb hidden in a bag in the Frank Sinatra International Student Center of Jerusalem’s Hebrew University killed 9 persons and wounded 87. The dead included 5 U.S. citizens and 4 Israelis. The wounded included 4 U.S. citizens, 2 Japanese, and 3 South Koreans.
Suicide Bombing in Israel, August 4, 2002: A suicide bomb attack on a bus in Safed, Israel, killed 9 persons and wounded 50. Two of the dead were Philippine citizens; many of the wounded were soldiers returning from leave.
Attack on a School in Pakistan, August 5, 2002: Gunmen attacked a Christian school attended by children of missionaries from around the world. Six persons (two security guards, a cook, a carpenter, a receptionist, and a private citizen) were killed and a Philippine citizen was wounded.
Attack on Pilgrims in Kashmir, August 6, 2002: Armed militants attacked a group of Hindu pilgrims with guns and grenades in Pahalgam, Kashmir. Nine persons were killed and 32 were wounded.
Assassination in Kashmir, September 11, 2002: Gunmen killed Kashmir’s Law Minister Mushtaq Ahmed Lone and six security guards in Tikipora. Other militants attacked the residence of the Minister of Tourism with grenades, injuring four persons.
Ambush on the West Bank, September 18, 2002: Gunmen ambushed a vehicle on a road near Yahad, killing an Israeli and wounding a Romanian worker.
Suicide Bomb Attack in Israel, September 19, 2002: A suicide bomb attack on a bus in Tel Aviv killed 6 persons and wounded 52.
Attack on a French Tanker, October 6, 2002: An explosive-laden boat rammed the French oil tanker Limburg, which was anchored about 5 miles off al-Dhabbah, Yemen. One person was killed and 4 were wounded.
Car Bomb Explosion in Bali, October 12, 2002: A car bomb exploded outside the Sari Club Discotheque in Denpasar, Bali, Indonesia, killing 202 persons and wounding 300 more. Most of the casualties, including 88 of the dead, were Australian tourists. Seven Americans were among the dead.
Chechen Rebels Seize a Moscow Theater, October 23-26, 2002: Fifty Chechen rebels led by Movsar Barayev seized the Palace of Culture Theater in Moscow, Russia, to demand an end to the war in Chechnya. They seized more than 800 hostages from 13 countries and threatened to blow up the theater. During a three-day siege, they killed a Russian policeman and five Russian hostages.
Assassination of an AID Official, October 28, 2002:
Suicide Bombing in Jerusalem, November 21, 2002: A suicide bomb attack on a bus on Mexico Street in Jerusalem killed 11 persons and wounded 50 more.
Attack on Temples in Kashmir, November 24, 2002: Armed militants attacked the Reghunath and Shiv temples in Jammu, Kashmir, killing 13 persons and wounding 50.
Attacks on Israeli Tourists in Kenya, November 28, 2002: A three-person suicide car bomb attack on the Paradise Hotel in Mombasa, Kenya, killed 15 persons and wounded 40. Three of the dead and 18 of the wounded were Israeli tourists; the others were Kenyans. Near Mombasa’s airport, two SA-7 shoulder-fired missiles were fired as an Arkia Airlines Boeing 757 that was carrying 261 passengers back to Israel. Both missiles missed.
Attack on a Bus in the Philippines, December 26, 2002: Armed militants ambushed a bus carrying Filipino workers. Thirteen persons were killed and 10 wounded.
Bombing of a Government Building in Chechnya, December 27, 2002: A suicide bomb attack involving two explosives-laden trucks destroyed the offices of the pro-Russian Chechen government in Grozny. The attack killed over 80 people and wounded 210.
Suicide Bombings in Tel Aviv, January 5, 2003: Two suicide bomb attacks killed 22 and wounded at least 100 persons in Tel Aviv, Israel. Six of the victims were foreign workers.
Assasination of a Kurdish Leader, February 8, 2003: Members of Ansar al-Islam assassinated Kurdish legislator Shawkat Haji Mushir in northern Iraq. (Thus you can see that no radical Islamic groups operated in Iraq before we invaded.)
ebd10
Member
PaulV:
Good post. Where did you find that List?
Good post. Where did you find that List?
bountyhunter
member
Actually, what the invasion of Iraq did was remove any hope of us ever winning over the lion's share of the mainstream of Islam which is where the WOT will ultimately be won and lost.
It is idiotic to post lists of what terrorists have done since that is not what I referred to in my post. There always have been and always will be terrorists who are (by definition) extremists. The problem comes in when the mainstream views the actions of an entire nation in a similar way because then they believe we are "state terrorists"... which is simply terrorism with a bigger budget. Al Qada, hamas, the IRA and every other terror group exist only as long as they maintain popular support. Eliminating it is the way to kill them.
I never excused any acts of terrorism against us, what I pointed out is that to ever win the WOT we will need a world where Islamic states believe we respect them and their religion and do not seek to depose them and install our own regimes. Further, we need to help them get strong enough that they are capable of standing up to the Islamofascists in their own countries.
I assume it would be a total waste of time to point out we will never defeat terrorism by adopting it as a defensive tactic.
The absolute lunacy of Bush's policy is to assume Al Qaeda (or any terror group) is identified with a single country and we can "get them" by attacking that country..... even if he had attacked the CORRECT home of Al Qaeda (which is Saudi Arabia) it is still the last resort we should use in fighting terrorism, not the first step. The roaches have no national allegiance and will just move somewhere else.
The point so often missed is that we have POTENTIAL allies in the WOT throughout the Middle east. Bin laden publicly stated he would eventually topple and depose all secular regimes (including monarchies) so Al Qaeda ultimately threatens nearly all ME countries (except for Syria and Iran).
We could cultivate those allies if we had not made it impossible for them to give us any support because of our "crusade". Nearly every ME country has a sizeable Islamic population and their leaders are scared to death of a revolt (which is exactly what Bin laden fomented in SA and got kicked out for).
The bottom line, this invasion has alienated and isolated every potential ally we have in this war from our side and, most ironically of all: destroyed the strongest regime in the region which was dead set against Islamofascism and created an Al qaeda training ground in it's place.
Yeah.... that's a winning strategy.
PaulV
Member
Complete list here. I had to trim it down in my post to get it to fit.
Terrorist Incidents
Why? It shows an escalation in the boldness and frequency of attacks even though we weren't in Iraq. Obviously our previous response of ignore them and they will go away didn't work.
Begs the question whether a religion that preaches the slavery, forcible conversion, or murder of non-adherents is worthy of our respect.
There you go again. Comparing the US military to organizations like the PLO or al Qaeda.
Was that the administration's assumption or your assumption of their assumption? Regardless, it's drawing them out of the woodwork for action in Iraq. This has to be detracting from the resources they have to strike other countries.
Who have we alienated who would have really helped us? Don't make me laugh by listing France.
Ansar al Islam and Abu Nidal Group seemed to be doing pretty well in Iraq before the war (both received Iraqi government financial support). They were pretty fond of Hamas too, offering financial rewards for suicide bombers' families. Also I doubt Hussein would have shoveled oil for food contracts to organizations that were al Qaeda fronts unless he thought their actions were beneficial to him. Doesn't sound to me like they were at all abject to having Islamofacists in their midst.
Remember the Iraqi government was the only government that officially applauded the Sept. 11 attacks. I'd be willing to bet Hussein swore by this statement "The enemy of my enemy is my friend."
bountyhunter
member
The previous policy which failed was not ingnoring them.... it was meddling in the region with gunboat diplomacy. It was a policy of long standing where we ignored the mass killing of civilains and played kissy face with the murderers we backed.
Remember the Shah of Iran, a murdering dictator we kept in power to have a "stable" source of oil? Sound familiar?
Another murdering dictator we armed and kept in power to have an "enforcer" in the region (Hussein).
What has failed is a policy which has stretched over decades where we interfere in affairs where we don't belong..... arm and defend murderers of a massive scale (including reagan who kept eyes tightly closed when Saddam gassed 5000 Kurds). We allowed countries like saudi Arabia to use us like hired goons whenever they needed muscle and then treat us like beggars when they didn't need our protection.
The policy that has led to the disaster we see today has many fathers. The point is, invading Iraq was an insane and totally ineffective step towards assembling a policy which will work. In reality, it cut us off from the countries we need on our side to win the WOT.
I generally don't waste time responding to urban myths so thoroughly discredited, so I will just ask one question:
If you or anybody else can provide one shred of credible evidence that Iraq provided any material support to a terror organization, explain to me:
Why have Bush and Cheney never offered up such proof on any of the occasions they were humiliated by questions demanding proof of their assertions along those lines?
Why have Bush and Cheney stopped making any such claims entirely?
Bush needs only ONE shred of proof linking Iraq and terror to wave over his head to say "I told you so!" and permanently silence his critics.
You would have us believe such proof exists.....
So, where is it and why has the admin stayed so FAR away from the BS urban myth sightings you refer to?
Amusetec
Member
I love how people love to throw out the Crusade line this is not a Crusade.
We are not trying to change them into christians quite the opp.
From what I hear most of the attacks are from outside of Iraq with a sunnis thrown in. Sunni was Saddams faction and they are the minority.
Did you hear about LIBIYA they fessed up becuse they knew they wher next, SA did not do anything about there problem until affter IRAQ. We now have IRAN almost surrounded. We have troops on the boarder of SYRIA. Did they not leave LEBANON? yea they did it becuse the people wanted it No becuse we where on the boarder with a lose cannon in the white house who would drop a bomb on ya fer the fun of it and didn't care what anyone said.
Wasn't Saddam paying homicide bombers family money?
Wasn't He supporting the terroists that where striking isreal?
There is more than enough evidence That he had the means to restart alot of the programs.
We are not trying to change them into christians quite the opp.
From what I hear most of the attacks are from outside of Iraq with a sunnis thrown in. Sunni was Saddams faction and they are the minority.
Did you hear about LIBIYA they fessed up becuse they knew they wher next, SA did not do anything about there problem until affter IRAQ. We now have IRAN almost surrounded. We have troops on the boarder of SYRIA. Did they not leave LEBANON? yea they did it becuse the people wanted it
No becuse we where on the boarder with a lose cannon in the white house who would drop a bomb on ya fer the fun of it and didn't care what anyone said.Wasn't Saddam paying homicide bombers family money?
Wasn't He supporting the terroists that where striking isreal?
There is more than enough evidence That he had the means to restart alot of the programs.
Vern Humphrey
Member
I have been told several times that the "anti-war" people here are not against the military. And then one posts this:
GoRon
Member
I think it was a very good object lesson to our "friends" over there as to what happens when you are not on our side.
Bush has stated that we will push for more "freedom" for the people of the ME. He has also spoke to them in a language they understand, brute force US style. This is the new policy that replaces the old backroom dealing policy. The people of the ME were never part of the equation before, now they are.
PaulV
Member
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