Bear Attack Victim: I wish I had a gun

[lobo9er]

there should be a both option. if not alone one in the group maybe have bear spray too.

 

[Driftertank]

Y'know, more people are killed by deer, per annum, than all other wild animal attacks combined in the US. Or at least, so says the statistic relayed to me. Though i suspect vehicle strikes are counted in that statistic.

Just that Bambi's not as scary to most people as Smokey.

 

[buck460XVR]

I like the story Jeff Cooper used to tell about the hikers wearing bells to alert bears of their presence. Cooper's story ended with a line about park rangers finding bells in bear droppings

That story has been around for a while......

 

[Alaska444]

Today, 06:54 AM #26
lobo9er
Member

Join Date: July 8, 2009
Location: Earth, Currently
Posts: 1,821
there should be a both option. if not alone one in the group maybe have bear spray too.

It only allowed two options here on THR. Obviously BOTH is the best answer since neither is 100% effective.

 

[hang fire]

That one year old bear should be killed and tested for rabies. Killed, because at that early age, it's aggressive behavior towards humans will only increase as it gets older.

 

[xerxesthecat]

someone mentioned a rifle, and sure that would be ideal. but if you run into a game warden, you could have problems. A handgun is generally considered 'defensive' for bear, while a rifle could be interpreted as 'hunting out of season'; at least thats the attitude around these parts.

 

[hardluk1]

Depends where you are and when.

 

[jmr40]

Either the spray was not used correctly or she was just unlucky. It does happen. I carry a gun when practical in black bear country, but all the research shows that spray is more effective. Especially when really big bears are involved. I'll not be in grizz country again without bear spray, and a gun if possible.

Black bear are not that hard to kill or deter with conventional handguns. With the really big boys even a perfectly placed shot from the largest caliber rifle could take enough time to allow the bear to get you before he expires.

 

[B!ngo]

I'm no expert but it would seem that doing it the other way around would be best. That is, rely on the gun for the greater range, and if that fails then rely on the spray - especially if the value of the spray is iffy.
But then again, I'd be surprised if anyone on a shooting/gun site like THR would recommend against having a gun in the bear country.
I did all of my serious hiking and camping on the east coast when I was younger and luckily never ran in to any ferocious four-leggers.
B

Sobering. Thanks for posting, Alaska444

It is easier to miss with a gun than with bear spray, though at 4 feet it seems unlikely missing with either. I wonder what strength of spray, whether it did actually hit the bear in the face and how much was spent (before Ms Jones-Robinson dropped it).

Certainly having a gun as a backup to the spray would have enabled her to kill the bear, but, as it turned out, it would have saved only her pack and car keys, certainly not worth the trouble of following through her duty to preserve the skull and cape and turn it over to the State of Alaska (required under Alaska law for DLP shoots).

I look forward to reading more detailed reports in my local media.

As far as how this incident will be counted in the Bear-Human encounters, I will venture to guess it will probably be chalked up as "successful" unless the person compiling shows some judgement. That is, (a) no human injury bear (b) spray used (c) no firearm used. Though, from the (very short) testimony of Ms Jones-Robinson, the spray actually failed.

But as long as I am speculating, I wonder if shooting the bear (one-shot instant kills are rare in DLP situations) would not have brought the mother bear onto the scene.

By the time the locksmith showed up, I wonder if Fish & Game would have gotten there, too, properly equipped to defend against the bear. I would have gone back for my keys (which would hold little interest for the bear when a nice, juicy backpack was available to chew on).

As far as the bells are concerned, Brown Bears usually only attack when surprized or threatened. Letting them know you are coming will usually cause them to quit the area (unless they are protecting a kill or cubs). You take the best odds you can get. If you are in the woods birdwatching or just to enjoy the quiet, you probably don't want to wear bells anyway.

Lost Sheep

 

[BBDartCA]

Bear attacks seem not so uncommon. From google news:

Serial criminal bear here in Arizona!

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/06/arizona-bear-attacks-up-to-three-in-a-month/

One in Pennsylvania few weeks ago
http://www.poconorecord.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20120706/NEWS/207060335

NY times even in on the act
http://green.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/07/09/in-bear-country-never-walk-alone/

http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2012/06/bear_attack_survivor_ben_radak.html

And bear spray being used by criminals:
http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/strange/article/263246/82/Bear-spray-attack-backfires-on-suspects

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/story/2012/07/09/calgary-mace-home-invasion.html

Even the Indians are not safe:
http://ibnlive.in.com/generalnewsfeed/news/woman-killed-in-bear-attack-in-ramban/1020543.html

 

[highlander 5]

My mother lived in a small apartment complex in NH that had a mother bear and her cubs raid their trash dumpster on a regular basis,I suggested geting a large container of cayane pepper to put in everyone's trash to deter her. When I went to visit 3 things came with me,my wife,my dogs and a 44 mag. I had people tell me that I'd be arrested for shooting the bear if the situation arose and my reply was I'll pay the fine better out a few hundred bucks than being mauled/killed by a bear.

 

[longknife12]

Pepper stays on camp table....sidearm goes with me. My kids were raised same way...so far, we have only used the pepper!
Dan

 

[Warp]

Both. I voted gun, though, if for some strange reason I could have one or the other.

4 feet away? WOW, it's amazing she is in one piece.

 

[hermannr]

My experience has been a large male bear that is hungry (they always are), or protecting food he has already procured is a lot more dangerous than a sow with cubs.

Had my local little sow (about 250 lbs) with her small cub (less than half her size) were back again this year, trying to break into the dog food, again. Last year I shot my 12 ga into the air, and both ran off. This year I just yelled, and they both ran off.

Three years ago my Doberman chased another bear off, but the one bear that was enough of a problem to get F&W out was a 450 lb male...he broke the door to the garage to get to that dog food, and he did not just run off because an 88 pound dog was harassing him. He is making someone a nice rug now. I don't shoot them if at all possible because I cannot (physically) clean them.

and for the rest of the story....Now you know why the dog food is in the garage, not the cabin.

 

[gym]

What you do is dig a big hole and cover it with ash, when the bear gets close you kick him in the ash---e.
Really give me a 50 cal or a 454, and forget the air freshner.
Wrong crowd to ask this question to. i bet the Bradys would pick the spray every time, uless no one was looking. But you could always get dick chaney to go Bear hunting with you, "wear protection" the bear should be safe unless he's with the hunting party.

 

[dprice3844444]

i don't need bear spray or a gun,i just need to be able to run faster than the person i'm with

 

[skoro]

Well...

"I used my bear spray when it was about four feet away and then I fell with my pack on and dropped the bear spray."

... seems to me the moral of this story is that if you're using bear spray:

1. don't fall down

-and-

2. don't drop your can of bear spray

Just my humble opinion...

 

[Warp]

I might add:

3. Don't wait until the bear is a claimed 4 feet away before using it.

 

[checkmyswag]

Im a pretty environmental fellow...do try to scare the bears with bells/spray. If need be though do use lead based bear repellent.

Watch your lane.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Well, perhaps she'll change her wishing to doing.

 

[Swing]

Gun. .44 Mag-o-rama minimum, .454 Casull would be better.

 

[Lost Sheep]

I've never been sprayed with bear spray, but I have had direct eye exposure to OC rated at 2 million Scoville Heat Units - which is the most "powerful" pepper spray available to law enforcement - during my department's academy. I confess that it was the most painful experience of my life, but add that it took a solid ten minutes for the me to feel the full strength of the OC. Furthermore, I was absolutely able to function at nearly full capacity for some time following the direct exposure, as we were required to conduct specific tasks for the 60 seconds immediately after being sprayed.

I have very little confidence, if any, in any type of chemical agent being able to stop any mildly determined animal in the event of an attack.

I vote gun - no contest whatsoever.

I don't want to discount your training experience, but are you certain it was the two million SHC chemical? That causes almost immediate blistering to exposed human skin.

I found this testimonial on another forum

We tested Phase IV about 4 years ago for our department to see if it would be better than the Def Tech at 25,000 SHU. One of our SWAT men volunteered ( he was the guy that walks around with the big red "S" on his chest all day). I gave him a one half second spray on the side of the face only for a simple test. The skin immediately blistered and he had to be taken to the hospital.

Respectfully,

Lost Sheep

 

[Alaska444]

Going back to the OP, who in this situation wouldn't want a gun? She fought the bear with a stick and bug spray to hit it with and simply standing up to it. Why, the pepper spray didn't do the job.

If we are going to look at pepper spray, look at it in the proper perspective. The anti-gun, pro-bear media makes people believe that pepper spray is a complete panacea for bears. Not true. It is a great option to have, but it should never be the total bear defense paradigm.

Go with multiple and overlapping layers of defense. None are effective completely by themselves. The whole pepper spray vs guns is a false dichotomy fed by the anti-gun lobby and pro-bear (anti-people) factions. The studies cannot answer the questions that the media blitz claims they have answered. Pure poppycock to state categorically one is better than the other.

These studies are truly quasi-scientific at best with levels of evidence considered in general as the lowest level "scientific" methods which are weak and flawed by their design. They have generated the hypothesis which is their chief purpose, but they CANNOT answer that hypothesis. They are not designed for that purpose.

 

[Bobson]

I don't want to discount your training experience, but are you certain it was the two million SHC chemical?

Pretty sure. Taken from the Sabre Red site:

Formulation --- MC --- Level --- OC
SABRE Red --- 1.33% --- III --- 10%
. . . .
[Scale] --- Raw SHU --- OC --- Percentage Dilution --- NET SHU
Hottest --- 2,000,000 --- 10% --- 90% --- 200,000

See attached picture of issued spray, same as used in academy.

Thing is, Sabre calls this Level III, and doesn't have any reference to a Level IV (as was referred to in your quote) that I was able to find on their site. I've seen a number of individuals immediately following being sprayed with what we're issued, both in the academy and during actual uses-of-force, and never saw any blistering whatsoever.

 

[Shadow 7D]

sorry, I will have to respectfully disagree
OC doesn't cause blistering, reddening of the skin, yeah, maybe even some mild (and this is MILD no defined boarder, soft to touch...etc.) swelling

the action of OC won't cause blistering unless the person is allergic to some component of the spray.