Besides an AK-47

[benEzra]

I would believe that a piston activated M16/4 would be the best. The actions are not the problem, the gas system is. And if you go with the AR you have that GYNORMOUS AFTERMARKET to use.

With AR's, the magazines are usually the problem, followed by lack of lubrication, and in some cases poor assembly, primarily unstaked parts that need staking. The DI system per se is almost never the cause of an AR going down, unless you're talking about some of the ultra shorty SBR's (especially when run with sound suppressors).

The problem with piston AR's is that you are cramming a piston into a design made for a skinny gas tube and a bolt carrier/receiver designed for force to be applied perfectly axially. So you end up with a skinny piston compared to an AK, and premature wear due to carrier tilt is a big problem in many piston AR designs. That's not to say a piston AR is necessarily any less reliable than a good DI AR, but I would suggest that they're not any more reliable either, and suffer from the same primary points of failure as the AR (magazines, tight clearances in the receiver, and failure to lubricate when it's dirty). IMO if you like pistons, it would probably make more sense to buy a rifle designed from the ground up as a piston gun, like the FN SCAR.

 

[SkinnyGrey]

benezra, how about an acr?

 

[benEzra]

Yes, the ACR is another example, I just couldn't think of the name; AFAIK the ACR was designed from the ground up as a piston gun. (Isn't that the one that started out as the Magpul Masada?)

 

[skifast]

Last weekend, I had a M16 jam on me 3 times in 30 rounds. A little lube fixed it. However, I am sticking with my Saiga AK, it has never let me down.

 

[jon86]

I don't know the answer to this one, but my stag AR has not had one hiccup, despite having probably about 7-8000 rounds through it. All kinds of different ammo too. I've ran it wet and dry. Not a SINGLE hiccup at all. Guess I'm just lucky.

 

[230therapy]

RE: magazines

Solved by Magpul P-Mags.

 

[wally]

This is the most obvious example here.

Semi-auto Krinkov wanna-be parts gun vs. 18" AR. Useless example.

Take an actual AKM like the Maadi or Norinco and the AR will give up the ghost way before they do.

I've a Norinco Thumbhole stock AKM that I never cleaned in 15 years and its never given a lick of trouble. I finally cleaned it a a couple of years ago before converting it to evil pistol grip configuration changing the furniture and trigger parts.

Lets see your AR or M16 do this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xe2jUEaTBVA

or this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNAohtjG14c&feature=related

 

[SkinnyGrey]

ezra, so you're saying the acr is a good rifle to buy?

 

[benEzra]

I don't have any experience with the ACR and don't know much about it yet, although from what I have read it does seem to be an excellent design. I do know that if I wanted a piston-driven gun, I'd look for one designed around a piston system, e.g. an ACR, SCAR, etc., rather than at a back-adaptation of a piston into a gun designed for direct impingement.

My own preference out of all of the above would be a good DI AR, personally. I have a lot of confidence in the system, assuming you make sure your rifle is assembled properly, and DI does have some advantages in terms of weight (particularly weight out front), accuracy, and recoil.

 

[dscottw88]

You mean the ones where the gas tube melts from the heat and stops the train in it's tracks?

The following is an AR15 Test:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8SSQ_wIG4o&feature=player_embedded

The following is a AK Test:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRRUuXyspT0&feature=player_embedded

 

[15guns]

FN SCAR L and SCAR H

 

[Hatterasguy]

Since the AK-74 is available to Connecticut residents, why not get an Arsenal AK-74? They're top line. Just add an UltimAK rail and an Aimpoint Micro. Commence firing cheap ammo at a measly 12-15 cents a shot.

I don't beleive Arsenal will ship to CT.

I have been looking into getting an AK74 for awhile, most gun dealers in this state get funny when you ask them about AK's. They just don't want to touch them.

 

[KrisKollins]

AR15

 

[Moose458]

Vz 58. Just as reliable as the AK and more fun to shoot and user freindly.

 

[wnycollector]

Last weekend, I had a M16 jam on me 3 times in 30 rounds. A little lube fixed it. However, I am sticking with my Saiga AK, it has never let me down.

I'm with you on this one!

I picked up my 1st ar last month (Delton 20" government profile upper and a RRA National Match lower) my version of a poor mans DMR. Thus far I have put 200 rounds of Silver Bear 62gr HP and American Eagle 55gr FMJ w/o a hiccup. I went to the range today with some Tula 55gr FMJ that was on sale at cabelas last month for less than $4 box. Three mags and three stuck cases that required a cleaning rod to remove them! Now before I get flamed, yes I know that Tula ammo is not great quality and my rifle is probably not broken in that well, but the rifle ate 5 boxes of silver bear the previous week w/o a problem.

My Saiga IZ-240 on the other hand is a garbage disposal of all sorts of nasty commie surplus ammo Once I gave up on the AR today I grabbed the Saiga and plowed through 200 rounds of bulgarian 7n6. Is the saiga as accurate as the AR...not even close...but does it go bang everytime I pull the trigger no matter what is loaded in the mag...OH YA! If SHTF in my neck of the woods, I'm grabbing the Saiga

 

[skifast]

Is the Saiga not accurate or is it the ammo. To compare an AR shooting match ammo to an AK shooting commie surplus ammo, is meaningless.

The AR is probably more accurate, but not by that much.

 

[wnycollector]

Is the Saiga not accurate or is it the ammo.

I need to clarify, I was probably being to dramatic with the "not even close" comment! My saiga has very good combat accuracy. I can put whole 30 round mag of surplus ammo into a 5.5" Shoot-N-C target at 100 yards shooting off a sandbag. My AR on the other hand seems to be a tack driver. MY problem was that my AR was finicky when in came to ammo, something that my SKS, Mak90 or Saiga have never been.

 

[sarduy]

well, if you can't make up your mind.... AK,AR,M1a,FAL..... just go with a pistol....

AK draco.

 

[CZ223]

Ahhhhh!! It is good to see that

some things never change. The AR vs. AK debate is alive and well.

Skifast: I too own a Saiga and I love it. It is plenty accurate for what it is designed for which is shootin man sized targets out to 200 yards, maybe a litlle further. Last week I brought both my newly acquired Mini 30 and my Saiga to the range. Using only open sights from a standing position I was able to keep all my rounds within the 7 ring of a B-27 target with the Saiga, most went in the 9 ring. I also went 5 for 5 on headshots with the saiga. The Mini 30 did almost as well. Here is the kicker. When doing the same drill with my AR with that is a proven 1/2 MOA gun, when wearing a 4x12 Leupold, my group opens up considerably. Looking through my 200 dollar Mark Brown custom rear sight is like looking through a basketball hoop.

WNY collector: You are right ARs, don't work that well with most steel cased ammo, so don't use it. They weren't designed for it. If you find a brand that works, great, stick with it. Trust me I know this hard advice to swallow, my Mini 30 doesn't like the steel cased 7.62 ammo. If asked, Ruger will tell you that it works fine with brass cased, boxer primed ammo. It wasn't designed for the russian stuff. Well that is just dumb, but it is what it is.

 

[happygeek]

My Sig 556 has not minded Wolf at all. It did mind the old STANAG mags I had laying around but works great given P-Mags. I have yet to meet anyone who didn't like P-Mags and know a lot of Army guys who've spent their own hard earned cash procuring them.

Really none of my firearms have been less than dependable. Even my CMMG dedicated 22LR AR has been good to go since I discovered it liked Winchester and Federal. Given that I use them on nice sunny ranges, clean & oil them almost every time they're shot, and don't drag em through the sand, mud, rain, etc. I'd think they were real POSs if they did jam up.

 

[Zerodefect]

Good Ar15's:
Colt, BCM, Larue, KAC, LMT make my list.

I know exactly what an AR needs. That makes it easy to keep reliable. Colt and BCM components are my favorites. Magpul magazines only.

I don't know enough about M1's, FAL's etc to see similar reliability.

My AR's are my most reliable weapons. Only my FN ps90 has proven as reliable.

 

[Zerodefect]

Yes, the ACR is another example, I just couldn't think of the name; AFAIK the ACR was designed from the ground up as a piston gun. (Isn't that the one that started out as the Magpul Masada?)

I agree. If you want a piston AR. Do not get an AR. I've experienced less reliability with piston AR's. For piston rifles, Bushy ACR, Roby XCR, FN ScAR, Sig 556 are the way to go.

I believe these designs each have long AK style rails perfect for stabilizing the carrier for piston operation. AR's don't have that. AK carrier reliability with allmost AR accuracy.

But the ACR deosn't have a chrome lined barrel/chamber. And that is a must have if you emphasize reliability. A stainless barrel would be good as well. But unlined chrome-moly steel is kinda sticky. Soldiers have died to bring us this lesson.

The ACR isn't ready for prime time yet. The Masada was set right, but when Bushy bought it they muddled a few things up. The sooner Bushy sees that......

 

[benEzra]

Last weekend, I had a M16 jam on me 3 times in 30 rounds. A little lube fixed it. However, I am sticking with my Saiga AK, it has never let me down.

Unless the rifle in question was both dry and dirty, then I would toss the magazine involved, check the rifle to ensure no parts are loose, and make sure the action spring is up to snuff. Also, how old was the rifle in question? I've heard that some of the M16's at some training ranges are pretty clapped out, but I don't know if that was the case here.

Out of curiosity, was it short-stroking (i.e., bolt not coming back far enough to pick up the next round), or was it picking up the next round fine but failing to completely chamber it?

You are right ARs, don't work that well with most steel cased ammo, so don't use it.

Some do, some don't. Chrome-lined 5.56x45mm chambers generally work quite well with Wolf, but I would imagine that .223 chambers, especially match chambers, could be a bit more finicky.

 

[Uncle Mike]

For plain ol' sledge hammer durability, I'll have to say the VZ-58 takes the podium!

Simply built it has the heart of a SKS and the mind of an AK with some SVT and VZ-52 LMG thrown in. With a grenade proof 'falling block' breech locking system, fixed ejector and an uncomplicated fire control group utilizing the excellent 'striker' fired system, this is one robust, hearty rifle.

Possibly, the only drawbacks, if you can call them that, may be the short stroke gas piston and unregulated gas system. Not that these are drawbacks, but to some.....

Yea, I'll say for a 7.62X39 firing rifle, the VZ-58 is key!

 

[Sky]

Don't know much about the Ak just what they sound like when they are shooting at you!! Where do you get an AK chambered for 5.56 or is it a chamber mod on existing AKs? Kinda like the looks of the AK 74..... 3 corp. 1969-1970 Charley Company 227 First Cav. Rude crude and highly unsophisticated but almost invisible..