Best 10mm defense ammo

[agtman]

Page me when Walmart carries 10mm, or when Speer makes 10mm Gold Dots.

Don't know which WallyMart you frequent, Chief, but the one in my area has occasionally stocked the Remington 10mm 180gn FMJ ammo (spec-ed @ 1150fps). Sure, not all the time, but they have had it in.

As far as 10mm loads topped with Gold Dot bullets, why wait on Speer?
Do they use some sort of magical propellant in their ammo?
Perhaps Speer employs Santa's elves in the off-season who then impart some magical properties to the Speer ammo-line?

FYI, but Geo Arms, DT, et al., have all been loading GDs for years, ... as well as Rem. Golden Sabers, Hornady XTPs, yadda, yadda ...

 

[Warp]

I haven't seen 10mm at any Walmarts yet. Not once.

If you could take pictures of the 10mm on the shelf at Walmart I think that would be pretty neat.

Don't know which WallyMart you frequent, Chief, but the one in my area has occasionally stocked the Remington 10mm 180gn FMJ ammo (spec-ed @ 1150fps). Sure, not all the time, but they have had it in.

As far as 10mm loads topped with Gold Dot bullets, why wait on Speer?
Do they use some sort of magical propellant in their ammo?
Perhaps Speer employs Santa's elves in the off-season who then impart some magical properties to the Speer ammo-line?

FYI, but Geo Arms, DT, et al., have all been loading GDs for years, ... as well as Rem. Golden Sabers, Hornady XTPs, yadda, yadda ...

Because, IMO and IME, DT is full of horse manure with their claims in addition to being overpriced.

Because, IMO, you can't beat a Gold Dot or HST for defensive semi auto pistol ammo. XTP looks like it would be a nice hunting bullet, less expasion, more penetration, tough design.




If you like DT and "Geo Arms", and you don't mind the availability of the ammo, go for it! Have a blast, it sounds like you know what you want and where you can get it.

 

[wow6599]

FYI, but Geo Arms, DT, et al., have all been loading GDs for years

But should they? Look at the second post in this thread (my post, btw) regarding the Underwood 165 gr Speer GD clocking in at 1450 fps......and stopping at 12". Why? Well, that bullet was designed for the 40 S&W and it's slower velocity. Might as well save your money and buy 165 gr 40 S&W GDs at your LGS, not 10mm from Underwood, Buffalo Bore, Double Tap, etc..

And I have 10mm from DT and Underwood. I love the 10mm cartridge (9x25 Dillon anyone?), but I'm with Warp on this; I want to see Speer (or anyone else) develop a .40 bullet for a 10mm.

 

[chopinbloc]

Federal's Trophy Bonded JSP was obviously designed for 10mm.

 

[Warp]

But should they? Look at the second post in this thread (my post, btw) regarding the Underwood 165 gr Speer GD clocking in at 1450 fps......and stopping at 12". Why? Well, that bullet was designed for the 40 S&W and it's slower velocity. Might as well save your money and buy 165 gr 40 S&W GDs at your LGS, not 10mm from Underwood, Buffalo Bore, Double Tap, etc..

And I have 10mm from DT and Underwood. I love the 10mm cartridge (9x25 Dillon anyone?), but I'm with Warp on this; I want to see Speer (or anyone else) develop a .40 bullet for a 10mm.

10mm: For when you want a larger grip, larger gun, more recoil, slower follow up shots, more expensive ammo, harder to find ammo, and inferior ballistics.

Okay, more to the point and less of a smart-alec (sp?)...why you should go with cartridges that have been sufficiently tested...and preferably that have a good street record...over a boutique loading from a small volume company based on FPS and energy claims made on the box.

 

[agtman]

If you could take pictures of the 10mm on the shelf at Walmart I think that would be pretty neat.

Sure, Chief.
I'll be there tomorrow when they open hoping to catch a pic just for you ...

 

[agtman]

Federal's Trophy Bonded JSP was obviously designed for 10mm.

As well as Nosler's 200gn JHP, which DT loads in 10mm. Just received some of it, in fact, from Midway.

 

[Warp]

Sure, Chief.
I'll be there tomorrow when they open hoping to catch a pic just for you ...

FWIW, Walmart will continue to not carry 10mm until there is evidence to the contrary.

 

[Teachu2]

I think it has interest to seasoned shooters - like you find on this forum, but if you skim through the posts here, you'll see people post about 9mm guns they've purchased, and other calibers, and it will be rare that someone announces that they purchased a 10mm pistol.

I bought a G20 a couple of months ago. I really never wanted a 10mm until I moved up in the mountains just about the time a drought started moving bears down in the mountains. I hope to never need to shoot a bear, but it made a great excuse to buy one.

 

[george burns]

I have to agree with Rusty and the other gents wjo question the popularity of the 10mm. I recall having this conversation with my uncles "who have all passed pn, That was some 20 years ago.
Since then It has faded into the woodwork rather than coming to the surface. It could have been the "next big thing" but was left alone to a group of loyal shooters who saw the possibility's. But the average person who is an occasional target or competition shooter finds it not suited for their needs. And too expensive to gear up for.

 

[Edarnold]

As usual, this discussion has wandered far off the original topic: 10mm loads for DEFENSE. I guess there may be some perps who need a bullet that penetrates more than 12" to stop them. I guess there may be some 'seasoned' shooters who can't handle the fearsome recoil of a caliber that duplicates .357 Magnum ballistics: perhaps they refuse to carry a pistol that weighs 2 pounds? After the debacles of 'premium defense ammunition' that retails for over $1 a round, and may or may not have correct, or any, powder charges in them (see Hornaday Critical Duty recall), I will not trust my life to anything I have not assembled myself. So whether Speer, or Nosler, or any big-volume ammunition supplier has 10mm ammo stocked at Wal-mart is irrelevant to me. The big-volume makers have proven they can't supply reliable defense ammo, even at outlandish prices. The loads from Underwood in 10mm have delivered their claimed velocities in many published independent tests, and I'd guess their volume is low enough that their reliability is good; unfortunately I live in a benighted locale that prohibits my receiving shipped ammunition from them, so that's out.

That leaves me with my choice for a DEFENSE gun: a Tanfoglio Witness full-size steel pistol. 14 rounds of 155gr. XTP bullets over 12.5gr. of Blue Dot, for a chronographed velocity right at 1400 fps. No matter what kind of Magic Bullets the industry claims to have developed, the 9x19, .40 S&W and .45 ACP are not going to deliver the kind of incapacitation that this load will. Since I don't expect any opponents I may be faced with to conveniently just stand there while I shoot double-taps or Mozambique drills on them, I want a gun and ammunition that will do maximum damage with each hit, while being controllable enough to produce a reasonable rate of fire. For me, this does the trick, not for hunting grizzlies, or shooting steel targets at break-neck speed, or carrying concealed under a Molon Labe T-shirt, but for home DEFENSE. Your opinion may vary.

 

[Warp]

As usual, this discussion has wandered far off the original topic: 10mm loads for DEFENSE. I guess there may be some perps who need a bullet that penetrates more than 12" to stop them.

For starters you have to realize that people are not built out of ballistics gel. They have varying densities, bones, skin, etc. If I'm not mistaken penetrating skin can be as difficult as ~4" of ballistics gel, for example. Skin is tougher, this we know, even though most people don't realize to think about it that way.

Then you have the fact that in a self defense situation you may very well NOT get a straight on squared away perfectly aligned shot head on into your attacker's chest. His (or her) arm may be in the way. You may be at an angle. He (or she) may be standing over you and you need to penetrate up through the torso to get an attack-stopping hit. Etc.

There is a good reason 12" is either considered insufficient penetration in gel, or is considered maybe just barely by the skin of your teeth the minimum penetration that you might think about trusting defensively.

The point is 12" of penetration is not so good, so picking a larger pistol with a heavier recoiling more expensive harder to find round and getting what is very possibly LESSER performance on the threat is a pretty bad deal.

I guess there may be some 'seasoned' shooters who can't handle the fearsome recoil of a caliber that duplicates .357 Magnum ballistics

You can insult people all you want, but the FACT is that more recoil = slower follow up shots. That is simple physics. It doesn't matter who the person is, if they train up with their firearm/pistol type of choice, less recoil = quicker follow up shots. This is absolute a factor to consider when making your decision on firearm/cartridge.

After the debacles of 'premium defense ammunition' that retails for over $1 a round

If you pay $1 a round for it you are a Grade A Sucker. Next time ask around, here on THR, on another board, hell PM me, we'll point you to much more appropriately priced ammo.

and may or may not have correct, or any, powder charges in them (see Hornaday Critical Duty recall)

As I said above...Speer Gold Dot/Federal HST.

Also...what...is 10mm ammunition magically free of any QC issues while other cartridges have the risk? I think not. So not really sure what the point here is?

I will not trust my life to anything I have not assembled myself.

It's weird how reloads are responsible for so many malfunctions yet people take this stance. JMO.

The big-volume makers have proven they can't supply reliable defense ammo

Bologna.

even at outlandish prices

Again, you need to learn how to shop better. $1 a round for 9/40/45? lolNO

The loads from Underwood in 10mm have delivered their claimed velocities in many published independent tests, and I'd guess their volume is low enough that their reliability is good

How does low volume = more reliability? What?

What that means is that there is very little underwood and very little 10mm out there (VERY little) compared to the big guys. Far fewer instances to potentially go wrong.

That leaves me with my choice for a DEFENSE gun: a Tanfoglio Witness full-size steel pistol. 14 rounds of 155gr. XTP bullets over 12.5gr. of Blue Dot, for a chronographed velocity right at 1400 fps. No matter what kind of Magic Bullets the industry claims to have developed, the 9x19, .40 S&W and .45 ACP are not going to deliver the kind of incapacitation that this load will.

I don't suppose you have testing or, even better, years of street results on that load?

Since I don't expect any opponents I may be faced with to conveniently just stand there while I shoot double-taps or Mozambique drills on them, I want a gun and ammunition that will do maximum damage with each hit, while being controllable enough to produce a reasonable rate of fire. For me, this does the trick, not for hunting grizzlies, or shooting steel targets at break-neck speed, or carrying concealed under a Molon Labe T-shirt, but for home DEFENSE. Your opinion may vary.

I don't suppose you've tested and timed yourself in set situations with a shot timer and that load compared to others?

 

[Edarnold]

Well, Golly Gee, Mr. Warp, judging by the the time and effort you spent in objecting to every opinion I expressed in my post, I seem to have pushed your buttons. Sorry about that, it was certainly not my intention to offend.

Regarding some of the points you made, perhaps I can clarify. I live in Chicago, Illinois, where I am not allowed to order ammunition by mail. Since there are no retail firearms dealers in Chicago, and few in Cook county, there is no incentive for low prices on 'premium' SD ammunition. Over $1 a round for Critical Defense, one of the few types stocked, is the norm.

Regarding the reliability of my loaded ammunition, versus factory, in over fifty years of rolling my own I have had zero misfires, zero squibs, and no over- or under-loads. Can't say the same for the limited amount of factory ammunition I've used over the sixty years that I have been shooting. NOT just my opinion.

Recoil and follow-up shots? Always a trade off, I don't find my choices of gun and load to be that much of a problem. I'm not trying to compete with Jerry Miculek; if lower recoil and more bullets-per-second floats your boat, that's your choice based on your beliefs. Hopefully neither of us will be forced to test our choices in the extreme.

Regarding my belief in the effectiveness of the 10mm load I've chosen, I believe the record of the .357 Magnum on the street over the decades speaks for itself. The 10mm ballistics pretty well duplicate the best you can expect from the .357, results in the real world can be expected to be similar. Confirmation also comes from the Incapacitation results of the Strasbourg Tests, which show the .357 and 10mm to be the outstanding performers of the calibers tested. Those who choose to believe that the latest generation of 'Magic Bullets' somehow upsets the laws of Physics are welcome to their faith. Me, I'll hang with the guy who started all this hooray: Jeff Cooper.

Stay well, Mr. Warp, and keep 'em in the ten ring...

 

[Warp]

Where do you buy Underwood ammo in Chicago?

 

[wow6599]

Back to topic.....

Here is a great video of Underwood 180 gr GD - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sl_n_miLfbY

And a 200 gr XTP (5:00 mark ) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFUAmIgR918

Maybe the FBI actually did know what they were doing when they asked for the 40 S&W? I just really like shooting 10mm, and I think it's a great rd - for woods carry and self defense, but the more I look in to the bullets themselves, I'm not convinced I'm going to gain (or lose?) much over a 9 or 45 on a human target.

This is why the .357 Magnum 125 gr SJHP is still the king - bullet design and sectional density. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8WNQxIjutc

 

[C0untZer0]

TNOUTDOORS9 video of the Underwood loaded Gold Dot makes a pretty good case for the 10mm as an effective self defense round.

It's like getting hit by a meteor.

 

[bangswitch]

I enjoyed the article, sometimes a little dry humor makes an otherwise tedious recitation of numbers and comparisons less boring.

I've had a 10mm since the G20 was first released in 1992, and regardless if more, or less, people are buying them, I'll keep mine. It's a perfect counterpoint to a large frame .357, or maybe even a .41 Magnum. I also have a .40S&W, and I load the 10mm for numbers the .40 can't reach without overpressuring, so in effect, it's the extension of the .40's capabilities. The bullet, whatever weight or design it may be, doesn't know whether it's fired from a .40 barrel or a 10mm one; it just matters how fast it's going (all other things being equal).

I've always wondered about this thing called "penetration", when talking about a self defense round. Some of these loads are penetrating 10, 12, almost 14 inches into ballistic gelatin. What are we defending against, anyway? The human torso averages maybe 14 inches at most in "normal" sized people, but the really important, vital organ stuff, is much less than half of that. The human heart lies less than three inches below the skin of the chest; the liver is about the same depth. Kidneys and spleen are deeper if you go in from the front, but all are well within the WORST penetration specs of about any round you can name in this caliber. Yeah, I know there's that hard stuff called bone between the skin and a few of these organs, but it's a minor inconvenience to the projectile, because shattering it just adds to the shrapnel that shreds the soft tissue when a gunshot wound is created.

I don't claim to be a ballistics expert, but I can tell you, from 30+ years as an O.R. nurse who's seen his share of gunshot wounds and the results thereof, that all you need in terms of penetration is enough to get it by the first four or five inches, and then who cares if it mushrooms or shreds. It will create enough damage for its intended purpose, which was to stop whoever it is that got shot.

For those extra-big attackers, a proportionally bigger, and faster, projectile works great, too.

 

[nathan]

10 mm is perfect medicine for those charging drugged crazed huge 300 plus pounders. Chest and head shots where they need to go.

 

[maxsnafu]

First the 10mm is not gaining in popularity.
If you research the R&D of the 10mm defense round & how-why it fell way short of the needs of US law enforcement/SWAT/FBI you'll see it's not that hot.

Now, I will agree the 10mm is very powerful & can be a CC/defense caliber with proper ammunition.
Corbon, www.ShopCorbon.com & Doubletap Ammo has very hot 10mm JHP loads.
Pre-fragmented loads like MagSafe & Glaser Safety Slugs can be good too in 10mm but most CCW license holders/shooters use regular JHPs.

Two gun shop owners in my city disagree with you. They have seen dramatic increases in the number of 10mm's they sell and are keeping a LOT more of them on display as a result.

 

[nathan]

I watched some gun review on TV at outdoor channel years ago. It was about HK showing their new version of submachinegun for SWAT use. And they were in 10 mm caliber . Very cool indeed considering the performance of 10 mm in a longer barrel vs the usual 5 inch pistol barrel.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=963-B2Al428

 

[jhb]

Nothing technical, but this phrase: "some uninformed brutes of questionable lineage", seems a bit much to me.

That and the use of the term "buffoon" isn't gonna set folks minds into reading the report while being unbiased.

That said I'm a fan of the 10mm. Shoot a glock 20. Wish we had more choices for pistols in it. I believe the lack of choices in pistols hold the round back from moving much faster back into popularity.

We got in current production... the glock 20 and 29....Some eaa choices which I'm not a fan of myself.....colt delta elite....kimber...ria. ..not sure if Dan Wesson makes one still? Sure there are a few more....some high dollar used s&w 1006 & 1076 etc......but availability is a major headache other than the eaas and glocks.....even with the internet.

Glad we are getting a sig model.....

 

[Elkins45]

I don't always carry a 10mm for defense, but when I do I load it with Winchester Silvertip ammo.

The reason: it's the ammo that has been tested in sufficient quantity to make me confident in its reliability
and therefore it's the ammo I purchased a stockpile of.

 

[SDGlock23]

10mm: For when you want a larger grip, larger gun, more recoil, slower follow up shots, more expensive ammo, harder to find ammo, and inferior ballistics.

My sentiments exactly.

14 rounds of 155gr. XTP bullets over 12.5gr. of Blue Dot, for a chronographed velocity right at 1400 fps. No matter what kind of Magic Bullets the industry claims to have developed, the 9x19, .40 S&W and .45 ACP are not going to deliver the kind of incapacitation that this load will.

The problem is you're basing your assumption off of "energy" in hopes that this extra "energy" will give it much better capability of stopping someone. What if your faster bullet fails to penetrate as deeply as a slower moving 155gr XTP? Will it? Likely so and energy can't make up for lack of penetration since you don't know at what angle you'll have to shoot, and pushing bullets beyond what they're designed for isn't always a smart move.

I'm not saying your load is bad or anything like that, heck I have no major issues with a 155gr XTP at 1400 fps but I wouldn't call it absolutely better than the same bullet moving at 1200 fps, and I highly doubt there would be much noticeable difference between them. I certainly don't see it as clearly superior to all the factory .40 and .45's that have less recoil and still pack plenty of "energy" to get the job done. Speaking of handloads, 3N38 can get me right around 1400 fps with a 155gr JHP too, but from a 4" Glock 23 (a "lowly" .40 at that).

 

[wow6599]

That said I'm a fan of the 10mm. Shoot a glock 20. Wish we had more choices for pistols in it.

Sig is supposed to be releasing a P220 in 10mm sometime soon.

 

[FireInCairo]

I'm not offended by the tone of the piece, it seemed obvious he was doing it to make his writing more interesting and engaging. But... I like to write and understand the craft a bit.