Best .38 spec Defense Load out of Snubbie

Status
Not open for further replies.
I can't answer your question but I can tell you I carry +p Golden Sabres.

Also, it will be easier for me to find this thread when someone does chime in with an answer now that I've posted on it. :)
 
I follow Grandmaster B's plan (though with Remington ammo), but, IIRC, DiFabio recommends either WC or those Cirillo things for use from a snubnose.

I don't think there's anything like consensus out there. :eek:
 
The new Speer 135gr load.

This loading is SUPPOSED to designed FOR snubbies!!
However, I have yet to see it on dealers shelves!!!!
I have included the spec sheet below for your perusal!!

Prepared by:
Ernest M. Durham
Development Engineer
ATK AAI, Lewiston, Id
10/09/03
Technical Data Package
38 Special +P
135 gr Gold DotÃ’ Hollow Point
2
Abstract
The purpose of this product is to provide ammunition specifically
designed for “Snub Nosed†revolvers carried for Law Enforcement
back-up use. Previous 38 Special ammunition was designed for
four or six inch barreled revolvers that generate higher velocities
corresponding to barrel length. These higher velocities facilitated
easier opening of hollow point bullets. If the same ammunition is
fired in short barreled revolvers typical of those LE Officers carry,
the corresponding lower velocity bullets do not penetrate
windshield glass, plywood, or car door barrier tests. When
penetration occurs in the other tests, non-expansion of the bullets
leads to diminished terminal performance and gross overpenetration
of the target.
This SPEER Gold Dot Hollow Point ammunition was specifically
designed to operate in the most prevalent back-up revolver: The
Smith & Wesson J Frame with 1 7/8†barrel. Ballistic gelatin testing
demonstrates excellent terminal performance when shot through
the FBI Ammunition Test Protocol. Attached results document the
superior performance of this ammunition in this operating platform.
Durham, Ernest M., 09 October 2003
Technical Report 38 Special +P 135gr. GDHP
ATK Ammunition Accessories, Inc.
CCI / Speer Lewiston Idaho
3
Table Of Contents Page 3
1 Objective
1.1 Problem Statement and Design Criteria 4
2 Cartridge
2.1 38 Special +P 135 gr Gold Dot Hollow Point 4
3 Cartridge Components
3.1 Cartridge Shellcase 4
3.2 Bullet, Gold Dot Hollow Point 4, 5
3.3 Primer, Lead Styphnate 6
3.4 Propellant Powder 6
3.5 Cartridge Sealants 6
4 Quality Assurance Provisions
4.1 ISO 9001 Certification 6
4.2 Lot Size 6
4.3 Sampling Plans for Testing 7
4.4 Standard Defect List and Visual Controls 7
4.5 Dimensional Controls 7
4.6 Destructive Tests 7
4.7 Function Testing 7
4.8 Propellant Weight Check 7
4.9 Cartridge Inspection 7
5 Technical Cartridge Specifications
5.1 Dimensional Control, Cartridge 8
5.2 Dimensional Control, Cases 8
5.3 Primer Sensitivity 8
6 Ballistic Specifications
6.1 Velocity 8
6.2 Chamber Pressure 9
6.3 Accuracy 9
6.4 Bullet Push 9
6.5 Bullet Pull 9
6.6 Bullet Jump 9
6.7 Environment 9
6.8 Calculated Theoretical Maximum Range 10
6.9 Calculated Theoretical Recoil 11
7 Measured Attributes 12
8 FBI Test Protocol Terminal Performance 13
9 Terminal Performance Tabulated Data 14
10 Performance Summary 15
11 Contact Information 15
4
1 Objective
1.1 The goal of this project was to create a cartridge designed to perform specifically
in Smith & Wesson J – Frame and similar short barreled revolvers commonly
carried for back up in a Law Enforcement role. The cartridges designed as a
result of this project are chambered in 38 Special +P, and comply with SAAMI
pressure limits for +P 38 Special ammunition. Bullet weight was selected to
maximize penetration in three principal test barriers when shot through and into
10% ordinance gelatin. Those test barriers are FBI bare gelatin, heavy clothing,
and IWBA 4 Layer Denim.
Where applicable, data from 9mm Luger +P 124 grain SPEER Gold Dot Hollow
Point was included for comparison (By customer request).
2 Cartridge Offering
2.1 38 Special 135 gr. +P Gold Dot Hollow Point Product # 53921
3 Cartridge Components
3.1 Cartridge Shellcase
Cases are made of Alloy 260 Cartridge Brass, ASTM 134-98 (70% Cu, 30% Zn).
The shellcases incorporate Boxer Priming. Cases are nickel plating for corrosion
resistance and ease of feeding. The exterior of the case is coated with an antioxidizing
and lubricity agent.
Each loaded cartridge is headstamped with the manufacturer’s name and caliber
designation.
3.2 Bullet, Gold Dot Hollow Point
Bullets are fabricated with a lead core encapsulated with copper. Bullets are
specifically designed to expand at the velocities found in 1 – 7/8†revolvers. Bullet
weight is controlled to within ± 2.5 gr.
The copper bullet jacket is electrochemically
bonded to the lead core to prevent core-jacket
separation during expansion. Because the jacket
is plated onto the core, concentricity is exact from
one side to the other, guaranteeing precise
rotation about the center of mass, and resulting
superior accuracy.
5
3.2 Bullet, Gold Dot Hollow Point (Cont.)
Tooling for this product was specifically designed to meet and exceed the design
criteria. Special care was taken to lay out internal bullet flutes to create predesignated
weak points that allow the bullet to easily expand.
Bullets were not selected from existing inventory, but newly developed for this
application. The special star-stab operation assures expansion even through the
toughest barriers. Exact control on core stab depth means repeatable
performance shot after shot.
The bullet ogive (Nose curvature) was selected to give clearance in the revolvers
cylinder, and offer a profile tough enough to retain its shape but flexible enough
to begin expanding at the lower velocities found in 1-7/8†barrels.
3.2.1 Bullet Component Parts
6
3.3 Primer
Primer cup is made of Brass (70% Cu,
30% Zn) and is nickel plated. Priming
mixture is standard for Law Enforcement
service ammunition and incorporates
Lead Styphnate as a primary explosive.
Primer design incorporates a foil paper
between the primer mix and the anvil.
3.4 Propellant Powder
The propellant utilized in this 38 Special GDHP cartridge is double based
(Nitrocellulose + Nitroglycerine) flake type. All powder lots used have chemical
and physical properties supplied and are on file if requested. The propellant used
in this product is very insensitive to temperature extremes and offers a low
muzzle flash. The high energy propellant is specifically formulated with optimum
levels of nitrocellulose and nitroglycerine for energy, burn rate modifiers and
deterrents to deliver a progressive burning powder, acid scavenging chemical
stabilizers to ensure long stable shelf life and flash suppressants to control
excessive secondary muzzle blast. The propellant is produced in the United
States of America by an ISO 9001:2000 certified supplier.
3.5 Cartridge Sealants
Case mouth interior is coated with Case Waterproofing Compound, Black Lucas,
MIL-C-13783C for reference only.
Colored nitrocellulose lacquer is utilized to seal the primer in the shellcase primer
pocket.
4 Quality Assurance Provisions
4.1 ISO 9001 Certification
CCI/Speer was the first ammunition plant in the United States to be certified to
the rigorous international quality management standard ANSI/ASQC ISO 9001
and has maintained that certification since 1996.
4.2 Lot Size
Lots are typically loaded in 100,000 ± 20,000 round increments, depending on
component amounts available at the time of loading. Coordinated deliveries of
Shipment Lots can be arranged for special circumstances. Consistency of
manufacturing guarantees lot to lot uniformity.
Each ammunition lot is assigned a unique identification number to include the
day, month and year of manufacture or assembly line on which manufactured.
This number appears on both the cartons and shippers.
7
4.3 Sampling Plans for Testing
Quality Assurance sample plan SITP-CF-001 (Standard of Inspection and Test
Plan, Centerfire) utilized for Function and Casualty testing. Classifications of
defect types are outlined in the plans for consistent and uniform processing of
production lots.
4.4 Standard Defect List and Visual Controls
Quality Assurance sample plan SDL-CF-302 (Standard Defect List, Centerfire)
utilized for visual defect classification and sampling plan sizes.
4.5 Dimensional Controls
Quality Assurance Dimension Inspection Plan DIP-62 (Dimensional Inspection
Plan) is utilized to monitor all shellcase and cartridge dimensional attributes.
4.6 Destructive Tests
Quality Assurance sample plan SITP-CF-001 calls out inspection types and
sample sizes for all destructive tests performed on the ammunition. These tests
include the following:
q Accuracy Testing
q Primer Sensitivity Drop Test
q Function and Casualty Firing
q Bullet Pull
q Bullet Push
q Bullet Jump
4.7 Function Testing
Function testing shall be in accordance with STM-CF-301 (Standard Test
Method, Centerfire) and SDL-CF-301 per specifications outlined in SITP-CF-001.
Function firing will be performed in weapons that Law Enforcement service
weapons in actual use, and are exclusively dedicated to this product.
Function weapons include the following:
q Smith & Wesson Model 10
q Smith & Wesson Model 640
q Ruger SP-101
4.8 Propellant Weight
Positive propellant powder detection for each cartridge is mechanically monitored
throughout production. The weight of components is monitored during fabrication,
and after assembly during the QA process.
4.9 Visual Inspection
All loaded service ammunition is passed through a 100% inspection process to
verify product quality before packaging and shipment to the customer.
8
5 Technical Cartridge Specifications
5.1 Dimensional Control, Cartridge
The overall length of the loaded cartridge is held to ± .015 inches. Primers are to
be seated -.005 ±.005 inches below flush. Maximum case bulge shall not exceed
receiver gages based on SAAMI maximum cartridge recommendations.
5.2 Dimensional Control, Cases
Case exterior measurement to be according to ATK shellcase drawings. This
drawing conforms to SAAMI 38 Special shellcase exterior dimensions.
5.3 Primer Sensitivity
Sensitivity is determined by a standard SAAMI (Small Arms Ammunition
Manufacturing Institute) firing pin of .100 in. diameter with full radius.
Ball weight: 1.94 ± .02 oz.
No fire height minus two (2) standard deviations hereby called H-2S:1.0 inches
minimum.
All fire height plus four (4) standard deviations, hereby called H+4S: 11.0 inches
minimum.
6 Ballistic Specifications
6.1 Velocity
Velocity of cartridges shall be measured with an industry standard 7.71 in.
SAAMI test barrel.
Product Instrumental Velocity
38 Special +P 135 gr. GDHP 1125 ± 50 fps
6.1.1 Revolver Velocity
The velocity of shots fired from short barreled revolvers will vary from the
instrumental velocity. Expect a velocity loss of approximately 265 fps when fired
from a 1-7/8†revolver and 190 fps when fired from a 4†revolver. Individual
firearms will vary.
Product 1-7/8 Revolver Velocity
38 Special +P 135 gr. GDHP 860 fps
9
6.2 Chamber Pressure
Chamber pressure is measured by SAAMI conformal piezoelectric transducer.
Test barrels are monitored on a periodic schedule and compared to established
lots of SAAMI reference ammunition for pressure and velocity.
Pressures of cartridges adhere to the following SAAMI guidelines:
Product Maximum Average Pressure
38 Special +P 21,500 psi
6.3 Accuracy
Five (5) individual groups of five (5) shots each shot at 50 yards shall not have
an extreme spread greater than 3.0 inches. Cartridges are fired from a standard
SAAMI accuracy barrel.
6.4 Bullet Push
Bullets shall have a push resistance of 50lb average, 30lb minimum individual
when compressed .030 inches below nominal length.
6.5 Bullet Pull
Bullets shall have a pull resistance of 50lb average, 30lb minimum individual
when pulled vertically from the shellcase mouth and maximum value recorded.
This quality attribute is particularly important in small lightweight revolvers. The
recoil generated during firing exerts a forward inertial force on the bullets in the
cylinder. If cartridges do not posses bullet pull high enough to retain the bullets in
the cases, elongation may occur. Excessive elongation beyond the cylinder face
can cause the inability of the cylinder to rotate. Special manufacturing steps are
rendered to this cartridge to prevent this defect from occurring.
6.6 Bullet Jump
Bullets shall not elongate further than .020†during bullet jump testing. Jump test
as per STM-CF-306 Cartridge Elongation Test.
6.7 Environment
Ambient temperature for pressure measurement is 70 ± 10°F. Average pressure
at temperature extremes of + 125° F and – 20° F is to maintain specification
within 20 % of ambient pressure.
10
6.8 Calculated Theoretical Maximum Range
Firearm Type
135gr.
( 1 7/8†BBL)
135 gr.
(4†BBL)
Maximum Range 4,912 ft 5,163 ft
Muzzle Velocity 860 fps 935 fps
Ballistic Coefficient .141 .141
Departure Angle 34 ° 34 °
Time of Flight 18.2 sec 18.8 sec
Impact Angle 64 ° 65 °
Impact Velocity 255 fps 259 fps
11
6.9 Calculated Theoretical Recoil
6.9.1 Smith & Wesson Model 640
Weight of firearm: 23 oz.
Ammunition Type 135gr. +P GDHP
Free Recoil Velocity 12.34 fps
Free Recoil Energy 3.40 ft-lb
6.9.2 Smith & Wesson Model 10 HB
Weight of firearm: 33.5 oz.
Ammunition Type 135gr. +P GDHP
Free Recoil Velocity 8.51 fps
Free Recoil Energy 2.35 ft-lb
6.9.3 Glock Model 19 (Included for comparison)
Weight of firearm: 30 oz.
Ammunition Type 9mm Luger +P
124gr. GDHP
Free Recoil Velocity 12.43 fps
Free Recoil Energy 4.50 ft-lb
12
7 Measured Attributes
Characteristic 38 Special +P 135gr.
Speer GDHP
9mm Luger +P
124gr.
Speer GDHP
Velocity 860 fps 1210 fps
Accuracy
(5x5 @ 25 yds) .681†.705â€
Muzzle Energy 221 ft-lb 402 ft-lb
Bullet Drop @ 50 yds 1.4†0.8â€
Bullet Type Gold Dot Hollow
Point
Gold Dot Hollow
Point
Residue 6.2% 4.5%
13
8 FBI Test Protocol Performance
14
9 Terminal Performance Tabulated Data
135gr. +P GDHP Velocity Penetration Retained Wt. Expanded Dia.
Bare Gelatin 864 fps 11†100% .576â€
Heavy Clothing 870 fps 11†100% .577â€
IWBA 4 Layer Denim 871 fps 13†100% .554â€
Plywood 844 fps 12†99% .357â€
Steel 866 fps 12†98% .455â€
Wallboard 885 fps 10†100% .549â€
Automobile Glass 838 fps 11†97% .556â€
9mm 124 +P GDHP Velocity Penetration Retained Wt. Expanded Dia.
Bare Gelatin 1224 fps 12 ½†100% .728â€
Heavy Clothing 1211 fps 12†100% .637â€
IWBA 4 Layer Denim 1207 fps 12†100% .550â€
Plywood 1183 fps 15†100% .514â€
Steel 1199 fps 17†100% .463â€
Wallboard 1228 fps 12 ¼†100% .684â€
Automobile Glass 1197 fps 14 ½†99% .672â€
15
10 Terminal Performance Summary
The data below represents averages of all events.
Grand Averages,
All Shots, All Tests
Velocity Penetration Retained Wt. Expanded Dia.
38 Special +P
135gr. GDHP 863 fps 11.4†99% .518â€
9mm Luger +P
124 GDHP 1207 fps 13.6†100% .606â€
This Speer Gold Dot ammunition was developed within the stringent
requirements of the FBI Ammunition Test Protocol and performance requests of
the Law Enforcement customer and project sponsor. These events were carefully
developed by ballistics experts not only to sufficiently test performance, but
provide for accurate test repeatability. All testing was performed in the short
barreled revolvers.
11 Contact Information
Ken Kees
Director of Engineering
CCI / Speer Centerfire Ammunition
2299 Snake River Ave
Lewiston, ID 83501
(208)-799-3968
(208)-799-3921 FAX
Ernest M. Durham
Development Engineer
CCI / Speer Centerfire Ammunition
2299 Snake River Ave
Lewiston, ID 83501
(208)-799-4490
(208)-799-3921 FAX
Allan Jones
Manager or Technical Publications
CCI / Speer Centerfire Ammunition
2299 Snake River Ave
Lewiston, ID 83501
(208)-799-3971
(208)-798-3661FAX
 
That sounds like a great load for snubbies, denfoote. Anybody know if it's available online anywhere yet?
 
Yep the 135 gr. Gold Dot is super nice. I've fired about 200 rds and ain't looking back! :)

By the way if anyone wants some I have 3 boxes I can let you have. Keep in mind though I paid $22 a box . You can have it for what I paid + shipping
 
158 gr LSWC HP+P has a long and distinguished history.


The new Gold Dot doesn't have a track record yet.


Stay away from 148 gr target wadcutters.
 
The 158 LSWCHP, or the new Speer load. I'd love to have the new Speer Gold Dot, but I'd love to have a snubbie to shoot it out of even more. I stupidly sold my 649.
 
158gr Lead semi-wadcutter hollowpoint +p

Longest, best proven track record; and most likely to shoot accurately and to POA out of most snubs, which is at least as important as terminal ballistics. For 'terminal ballistics' to matter, you've got to get the package to the right part of the 'terminal' to begin with, IYKWIM. The 158 LSWCHP is very likely to do this, and to properly punch the ticket when it gets there.
 
Until recently I had been carrying Winchester 130 gr SXT +P in my SP101. I'm now carrying the 135 gr +P Gold Dots.
Anybody know if it's available online anywhere yet?
I bought mine from The Outdoor America Store for around $14.00 for boxes of 50. I just took a quick look and don't see them there, maybe I missed them, the part number is SPE_53921. Might be worth a phone call to see if they have any or will be restocking. The shipping was reasonable and delivery was fast.
 
Outdoor America is just up the road from me. Will have to make a trip up there once I get the 642 I am buying for my CCL present.
 
The folks over at Tactical Fourm recommend 148 grain wadcutters in the small j frames if the barrel is under 3". I tend to carry either these or my favorite the

158 LHP +P in either Remington or Winchester.

I am interested in those Gold Dots however......
 
After years of carrying the highly respected 158gr SWCHP+P, I've switched to Speer's 135gr +P Gold Dot. I don't see any quality HP or JHP letting one down.

130gr Winchester SXT (left) and Speer's 135gr Gold Dot after 2 layer/denim play dough test from my Taurus M85CH
f7adbefb.jpg
 
denfoote, Speer should give you a raise

i will certainly check out that ammo

and a bonus to Snowdog for all his hard work on behalf of the company
 
I would just about swear by the 158gr LHP +P loads. I havent had any trouble shooting them in my Bodyguard. You cant go wrong with a bullet that has an excellent 30 year history or so and lots of documented use.

That said, supposedly Buffalo Bore is making something hot for the snubbie. It isnt available yet but will be soon.
 
I like any of the 158gr LSWCHP's from WIN/FED/REM if the barrel is 3" or longer.I tried the black hills 125gr GDHP +P's in my 2" S&W 15-2 with excellent results.They were fast,970fps and under 3" at 20 yards.If you like gold dots these are worth checking out,i bought mine from midwayusa for $18.00 per 50.
 
denfoote, Speer should give you a raise

Raise!!
Heck, I'd settle for just a job!!! :evil:
I wish I worked for Speer!!! ;)

Has anybody noticed that the original poster of this thread lives in New Jersey?? :eek:

It is my understanding that it is illegal for him to possess hollowpoint ammunition unless he is an LEO!! :what:

If so, then it is also my understanding that his department will also issue his ammunition as well!! :confused:

Any advice given to him becomes somewhat superfluous!!!!! :scrutiny:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top