benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
As long as the firearm is reasonably compact and capable of firing reasonably fast followup shots, the best one is probably the one you have the most practice with.
Best close-quarters defense rifles?
- Thread starter DHart
- Start date
- Status
Marshall
Member
.30 Carbine or a .444/.450 Marlin Lever Gun.
DHart
Member
44... though the .44mag carbine is more powerful than might be desired, if you had to pick one or two FACTORY ammo rounds for defense against human evil-doers - using a 16.5" Trapper lever rifle, what would they be? I know that through and through penetration is almost a certainty with this caliber, but there must be a factory load or two that when fired through a Trapper would expand in human tissue quite significantly, and exit without a huge amount of velocity remaining... any thoughts?
Here are some of the available factory rounds:
Pro-Load Gold Dot Tactical Lite ESTIMATED ballistics for 16" carbine barrel (est. velocity gain of 400 fps over pistol ballistics)
PL44MT1 44 Magnum 200 GoldDotJHP Vel >>>1450
PL44MT1 44 Magnum 200 GoldDotJHP Energy >>>934
Winchester Supreme Partition Gold - ESTIMATED ballistics for 16" carbine barrel
S44MP 44 Magnum 250 FMJ HP Velocity >>>1630
S44MP 44 Magnum 250 FMJ HP Energy >>>1475
Speer Gold Dot ESTIMATED ballistics for 16" carbine barrel (est. velocity gain of 400 fps over pistol ballistics)
23972 44 Magnum 210 GoldDotJHP Vel >>>1850
23972 44 Magnum 210 GoldDotJHP Energy >>>1595
Speer Gold Dot ESTIMATED ballistics for 16" carbine barrel (est. velocity gain of 400 fps over pistol ballistics)
23973 44 Magnum 240 GoldDotJHP Vel >>>1800
23973 44 Magnum 240 GoldDotJHP Energy >>>1726
Hornady XTP - ESTIMATED ballistics for 16" carbine barrel (est. velocity gain of 400 fps over pistol ballistics)
9081 44 Magnum 180 FMJ HP Velocity >>>1950
9081 44 Magnum 180 FMJ HP Energy >>>1520
Hornady XTP - ESTIMATED ballistics for 16" carbine barrel (velocity gain of 400 fps over pistol ballistics)
9080 44 Magnum 200 FMJ HP Velocity >>>1900
9080 44 Magnum 200 FMJ HP Energy >>>1603
Hornady XTP - ESTIMATED ballistics for 16" carbine barrel (velocity gain of 400 fps over pistol ballistics)
9085 44 Magnum 240 FMJ HP Velocity >>>1750
9085 44 Magnum 240 FMJ HP Energy >>>1632
Hornady XTP - ESTIMATED ballistics for 16" carbine barrel (velocity gain of 400 fps over pistol ballistics)
9088 44 Magnum 300 FMJ HP Velocity >>>1550
9088 44 Magnum 300 FMJ HP Energy >>>1600
Winchester Super X Silvertip - Ballistics based on RIFLE barrel
X44MS 44 Magnum 210 Silvr Tip HP Velocity >>>1580
X44MS 44 Magnum 210 Silvr Tip HP Energy >>>1164
Here are some of the available factory rounds:
Pro-Load Gold Dot Tactical Lite ESTIMATED ballistics for 16" carbine barrel (est. velocity gain of 400 fps over pistol ballistics)
PL44MT1 44 Magnum 200 GoldDotJHP Vel >>>1450
PL44MT1 44 Magnum 200 GoldDotJHP Energy >>>934
Winchester Supreme Partition Gold - ESTIMATED ballistics for 16" carbine barrel
S44MP 44 Magnum 250 FMJ HP Velocity >>>1630
S44MP 44 Magnum 250 FMJ HP Energy >>>1475
Speer Gold Dot ESTIMATED ballistics for 16" carbine barrel (est. velocity gain of 400 fps over pistol ballistics)
23972 44 Magnum 210 GoldDotJHP Vel >>>1850
23972 44 Magnum 210 GoldDotJHP Energy >>>1595
Speer Gold Dot ESTIMATED ballistics for 16" carbine barrel (est. velocity gain of 400 fps over pistol ballistics)
23973 44 Magnum 240 GoldDotJHP Vel >>>1800
23973 44 Magnum 240 GoldDotJHP Energy >>>1726
Hornady XTP - ESTIMATED ballistics for 16" carbine barrel (est. velocity gain of 400 fps over pistol ballistics)
9081 44 Magnum 180 FMJ HP Velocity >>>1950
9081 44 Magnum 180 FMJ HP Energy >>>1520
Hornady XTP - ESTIMATED ballistics for 16" carbine barrel (velocity gain of 400 fps over pistol ballistics)
9080 44 Magnum 200 FMJ HP Velocity >>>1900
9080 44 Magnum 200 FMJ HP Energy >>>1603
Hornady XTP - ESTIMATED ballistics for 16" carbine barrel (velocity gain of 400 fps over pistol ballistics)
9085 44 Magnum 240 FMJ HP Velocity >>>1750
9085 44 Magnum 240 FMJ HP Energy >>>1632
Hornady XTP - ESTIMATED ballistics for 16" carbine barrel (velocity gain of 400 fps over pistol ballistics)
9088 44 Magnum 300 FMJ HP Velocity >>>1550
9088 44 Magnum 300 FMJ HP Energy >>>1600
Winchester Super X Silvertip - Ballistics based on RIFLE barrel
X44MS 44 Magnum 210 Silvr Tip HP Velocity >>>1580
X44MS 44 Magnum 210 Silvr Tip HP Energy >>>1164
What about compared to the lighter-weight intermediate rounds such as .223 and 7.62x39mm? My personal testing, which only took me a couple minutes, some ear protection, some jugs of water and a few boxes of 9mm and .223 ammo- and, of course, carbines in each caliber- led me to believe the right .223 penetrates less than 9mm. Are you including these rounds, or sticking to the established definition of battle rifle calibers?
John
DHart
Member
44... Did you get the Rossi 1892 Trapper? Do you love it? I think the trapper size is awesome. I bought a Marlin 1894SS which has a 20" barrel, but I'm thinking I might have it cut back to 16.5" (Trapper length). I would only use the gun as a fun gun, camp gun, possible defense against badguys or possibly, defense against animals. I just want to use factory ammo, not reload my own.
I'll bet there are quite a few of us with .44mag rifles who would like to find a medium (not hot) loading in .44mag for defense purposes. Since nearly all the factory rounds I looked at had given ballistics based on pistol lengths, I arbitarily added 400 fps to the factory listed fps to try to estimate what might be expected from a 16" barrel. Of course 400 might be a little high or low as a modifier, depending on the specifics of each load... but I had to use something to get a general idea of the velocities and energies which might be obtained from a carbine.
I think a light (let's say 180 to 210 gr.) JHP bullet in .44mag might tend to almost explode on impact at rifle velocities, whereas the heavy 300 gr. JSP cartridges might not expand nearly enough before penetrating through... so I'm guessing that perhaps the mid-weight 240gr. JHP with bonded jackets (like the GoldDot, Supreme Partition, or XTP) might be the best compromise for defense use against human adversaries. Most likely, full penetration in heavy-set, heavily clothed targets is practically assured and that's a very good thing as long as the remaining energy is not too great after exit. I'm no expert, that's for sure., but seeking educated and experienced opinions.
And to those who would suggest it, yes, I agree that a 12-gauge is ideal for close range defense and I've got a Mossberg 500A Persuader which I really like.
I'll bet there are quite a few of us with .44mag rifles who would like to find a medium (not hot) loading in .44mag for defense purposes. Since nearly all the factory rounds I looked at had given ballistics based on pistol lengths, I arbitarily added 400 fps to the factory listed fps to try to estimate what might be expected from a 16" barrel. Of course 400 might be a little high or low as a modifier, depending on the specifics of each load... but I had to use something to get a general idea of the velocities and energies which might be obtained from a carbine.
I think a light (let's say 180 to 210 gr.) JHP bullet in .44mag might tend to almost explode on impact at rifle velocities, whereas the heavy 300 gr. JSP cartridges might not expand nearly enough before penetrating through... so I'm guessing that perhaps the mid-weight 240gr. JHP with bonded jackets (like the GoldDot, Supreme Partition, or XTP) might be the best compromise for defense use against human adversaries. Most likely, full penetration in heavy-set, heavily clothed targets is practically assured and that's a very good thing as long as the remaining energy is not too great after exit. I'm no expert, that's for sure., but seeking educated and experienced opinions.
And to those who would suggest it, yes, I agree that a 12-gauge is ideal for close range defense and I've got a Mossberg 500A Persuader which I really like.
KRAUTGUNNER
Member
- Joined
- Dec 24, 2002
- Messages
- 255
I suggest the M1 Carbine. Of course with a hot handload and a hollowpoint bullet.
I left out the 223 because of blast, and the 30 Carbine because of over-penetration. I have both of them.
Right now my main choice would be the various 9mm +P and +P+ 115gr and 124gr rounds. They benefit from the carbine 16" length, and most of the bullets really flatten out at carbine velocity. Too much, in some cases, probably. But 9mm puts lots of ammo in the gun (and in your pockets) with very little added weight.
There are other 9mm rounds that work too. Mainly the fairly recently developed ones. So I've read. The 9mm carbine ballistics are supposed to be much like the Fed 125gr 357 at the muzzle of a 4" barrel. (Fed p/n 357B).
I might buy a Ruger PC9 and try it out for a year or so.
My 44mag carbine is a Winchester 94. I carry it in the woods with the Speer 270gr GDSP. One thing I like about the lever carbines is that they can always be kept topped off. Always full.
As for self defense, the 44mag should have tremendous potential, but I have not seen any good self defense ammo test results. Marshall and Sanow have the factory Win 210gr Silvertip at 93% from a handgun. Maybe pre-frags like the Glasers, MagSafe, BeeSafe, or Quik Shok are the answer.
On DHart's ammo list, all of the rounds look like they might have excessive energy / penetration from a carbine. But I'm no ammo expert. I'm just learning about all these things myself, and I appreciate the knowledge available here on HighRoad. 44
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Right now my main choice would be the various 9mm +P and +P+ 115gr and 124gr rounds. They benefit from the carbine 16" length, and most of the bullets really flatten out at carbine velocity. Too much, in some cases, probably. But 9mm puts lots of ammo in the gun (and in your pockets) with very little added weight.
There are other 9mm rounds that work too. Mainly the fairly recently developed ones. So I've read. The 9mm carbine ballistics are supposed to be much like the Fed 125gr 357 at the muzzle of a 4" barrel. (Fed p/n 357B).
I might buy a Ruger PC9 and try it out for a year or so.
My 44mag carbine is a Winchester 94. I carry it in the woods with the Speer 270gr GDSP. One thing I like about the lever carbines is that they can always be kept topped off. Always full.
As for self defense, the 44mag should have tremendous potential, but I have not seen any good self defense ammo test results. Marshall and Sanow have the factory Win 210gr Silvertip at 93% from a handgun. Maybe pre-frags like the Glasers, MagSafe, BeeSafe, or Quik Shok are the answer.
On DHart's ammo list, all of the rounds look like they might have excessive energy / penetration from a carbine. But I'm no ammo expert. I'm just learning about all these things myself, and I appreciate the knowledge available here on HighRoad. 44
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Med 10
Member
Another vote for a pistol caliber carbine. However I would feel more than well armed with a quality semiauto handgun in an appropriate caliber.
saltydog452
Member
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2004
- Messages
- 1,707
44 Trapper
Did you consider 44 Special?
salty.
Did you consider 44 Special?
salty.
DHart
Member
Salty... unfortunately, the factory .44spl loads all seem to be designed for short pistols... fast powder, modest charge... while I certainly wouldn't want to stand in front of a Trapper loaded with 44 spl., it doesn't inspire a lot of confidence as a defense load when compared to .357, .45Colt, and of course .44mag, which is remarkably (almost too much so) potent in a carbine. Yes, .44spl bullets have killed a lot of men, but I think it would take hand-loading the .44spl round to get something truly inspiring... the factory offerings just seem too light.
Cor-Bon makes a 165gr 44mag load that goes only 1300 fps out of a pistol; it's intended as a mid-range load. I expect it would be more expansive when fired from a pistol. I think that is about the only mid-range defensive load made for the 44.
Some of the tougher JHP bullets, like the Sierra, or the Nosler Partition, are known for being marginal on expansion out of a pistol. They ought to expand pretty nicely out of a 16" barrel.
Does anyone know of any bullet test results for pistol loads fired from Carbines? That info would be pretty informative.
Some of the tougher JHP bullets, like the Sierra, or the Nosler Partition, are known for being marginal on expansion out of a pistol. They ought to expand pretty nicely out of a 16" barrel.
Does anyone know of any bullet test results for pistol loads fired from Carbines? That info would be pretty informative.
I found this comparison searching...Ruger PC 9 weight...on Google:
9mm Colt Commander (4 1/2" barrel) vs Marlin Camp Carbine (16 1/2" barrel)
Load........Commander....Carbine.....Difference
CCI
115 gr. JHP...1175 fps...1318 fps .....+143 fps
124 gr. JHP...1098 fps...1292 fps..... +194 fps
147 gr. JHP...962 fps.......987 fps..... + 25 fps
BLACK HILLS
115 gr. JHP...1145 fps...1205 fps .....+ 60 fps
124 gr. JHP...1148 fps...1296 fps .....+148 fps
147 gr. JHP...1017 fps...1047 fps .....+ 30 fps
147 gr. FMJ ....930 fps...1050 fps .....+120 fps
SPANISH
113 gr. JFP...1235 fps....1369 fps .....+134 fps
He says "The Carbine averaged 107 fps faster than the handgun."
He says: "Here's the plus to that velocity situation. Expanding bullets designed around handgun velocities are still basically moving at handgun velocities. They shouldn't over expand or under penetrate."
----------------- 44 --------------------
9mm Colt Commander (4 1/2" barrel) vs Marlin Camp Carbine (16 1/2" barrel)
Load........Commander....Carbine.....Difference
CCI
115 gr. JHP...1175 fps...1318 fps .....+143 fps
124 gr. JHP...1098 fps...1292 fps..... +194 fps
147 gr. JHP...962 fps.......987 fps..... + 25 fps
BLACK HILLS
115 gr. JHP...1145 fps...1205 fps .....+ 60 fps
124 gr. JHP...1148 fps...1296 fps .....+148 fps
147 gr. JHP...1017 fps...1047 fps .....+ 30 fps
147 gr. FMJ ....930 fps...1050 fps .....+120 fps
SPANISH
113 gr. JFP...1235 fps....1369 fps .....+134 fps
He says "The Carbine averaged 107 fps faster than the handgun."
He says: "Here's the plus to that velocity situation. Expanding bullets designed around handgun velocities are still basically moving at handgun velocities. They shouldn't over expand or under penetrate."
----------------- 44 --------------------
It has been my experience that the 9mm Luger round benefits very little from a carbine length barrel. Here is a thread I posted with my chrono results between various barrel lengths and varous loads: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=45283&highlight=chrono
In my very uninformed opinion, I think the .44 mag out of a carbine is way excessive for use as a home defense weapon. If I had one and was determined to use it for home defense, I would definitely be using a light .44 Special load, which is more than adequate. You might be interested in reading some of Elmer Keith's writings about his experiences with the .44 Special round: in some cases loaded with black powder. In particular, his famous story about shooting at a cabin out in the middle of no where using a handgun in .44 Special at some extremly long range: I think it was like 600 yards. When he went up to look inside the cabin, the bullets had penetrated an iron bed. He makes the observation that the .44 Special would certainly completely penetrate any human AT THAT RANGE. Now I haven't personally tried it, but Elmer Keith had a lot of experience behind him and I tend to put a lot of faith in what he says.
As I mentioned before: the professionals are using the 5.56/223 round. They are quickly abandoned the pistol caliber cartriges in weapons like the HK MP5 for carbines in 5.56/223. This was done after a fair amount of testing by recognized authorities on the subject. They have seen the results of actual field use of both platforms and have access to data throughout the world on the performance of the various cartridges. Personally, I have seen many people shot with handgun rounds, and a few people shot with rounds such as the 5.56/223 and the 7.62x39 and there is no comparison. I have also shot animals with both handguns and rifles in pistol calibers as well as .223/5.56 and there is no comparison.
IMO, the shotgun is the way to go, but, if you choose to use a rifle - the current state of the art is well known: there is no reason to speculate or re-invent the wheel.
In my very uninformed opinion, I think the .44 mag out of a carbine is way excessive for use as a home defense weapon. If I had one and was determined to use it for home defense, I would definitely be using a light .44 Special load, which is more than adequate. You might be interested in reading some of Elmer Keith's writings about his experiences with the .44 Special round: in some cases loaded with black powder. In particular, his famous story about shooting at a cabin out in the middle of no where using a handgun in .44 Special at some extremly long range: I think it was like 600 yards. When he went up to look inside the cabin, the bullets had penetrated an iron bed. He makes the observation that the .44 Special would certainly completely penetrate any human AT THAT RANGE. Now I haven't personally tried it, but Elmer Keith had a lot of experience behind him and I tend to put a lot of faith in what he says.
As I mentioned before: the professionals are using the 5.56/223 round. They are quickly abandoned the pistol caliber cartriges in weapons like the HK MP5 for carbines in 5.56/223. This was done after a fair amount of testing by recognized authorities on the subject. They have seen the results of actual field use of both platforms and have access to data throughout the world on the performance of the various cartridges. Personally, I have seen many people shot with handgun rounds, and a few people shot with rounds such as the 5.56/223 and the 7.62x39 and there is no comparison. I have also shot animals with both handguns and rifles in pistol calibers as well as .223/5.56 and there is no comparison.
IMO, the shotgun is the way to go, but, if you choose to use a rifle - the current state of the art is well known: there is no reason to speculate or re-invent the wheel.
And full-power battle rifles will have less?
444, I do agree that a .223 will typically do a better job of stopping an adversary than virtually all pistol calibers, but I don't agree with your reasoning about the .44. I somehow doubt that ole' Elmer was using lightly built expanding rounds. What do you think? As well, we both know that low velocity, high SD, and a sturdy bullet= deep penetration. I *would* be quite interested in seeing what a light bullet at high velocities would do...of course, I guess I could just use a .223...
John
DHart
Member
It's nice to see that there is a moderate gain in performance from the carbine length barrel... therefore the bullet itself should hit a little harder and still perform as designed.
I had a look at a few of the modern semi-auto "assault-rifles" and found that to my taste, they just don't appeal to me, capable as they are. So I'm turning my focus back to the carbines which stir my soul... lever rifles.
While I'm sure the AR's etc. in .223 do a very good job, the pistol caliber carbines can do the job well (especially for an average citizen just looking for a nice acerage rifle) and some of us prefer the older style of weapon and the calibers... my favorite is .45Colt and several factory defense oriented .45Colt rounds (CorBon 200gr. JHP, Speer 250gr. GoldDot, WW Silvertip) should perform quite well in a .45Colt Trapper lever rifle... which is my preference.
I appreciate all the suggestions and viewpoints!
I had a look at a few of the modern semi-auto "assault-rifles" and found that to my taste, they just don't appeal to me, capable as they are. So I'm turning my focus back to the carbines which stir my soul... lever rifles.
While I'm sure the AR's etc. in .223 do a very good job, the pistol caliber carbines can do the job well (especially for an average citizen just looking for a nice acerage rifle) and some of us prefer the older style of weapon and the calibers... my favorite is .45Colt and several factory defense oriented .45Colt rounds (CorBon 200gr. JHP, Speer 250gr. GoldDot, WW Silvertip) should perform quite well in a .45Colt Trapper lever rifle... which is my preference.
I appreciate all the suggestions and viewpoints!
I would guess that Elmer was using cast lead bullets: who knows what alloy he was using. I doubt that wheel weights had even been invented at that point
I don't know about light weight, high velocity jacketed bullets in the .44 mag. in this context. I have shot them out of a handgun, but never out of a carbine. I can tell you that they will blow a jackrabbit to bits . There is no question that they would work as far as stoping the home invader with pretty spectacular results. The point I was making was, I think that the .44 mag out of a carbine would be over-kill. I would guess that a 180 grain bullet, pushed hard out of a .44 mag carbine would be very close to a .30-30. Of course you have to also consider that the handgun bullet probably wasn't designed for the kind of velocity we are talking about, so it might come apart pretty readily which in this case would be a good thing.
I guess if all you had was a carbine in .44 mag, it might be something worthwhile to explore.
I don't know about light weight, high velocity jacketed bullets in the .44 mag. in this context. I have shot them out of a handgun, but never out of a carbine. I can tell you that they will blow a jackrabbit to bits
. There is no question that they would work as far as stoping the home invader with pretty spectacular results. The point I was making was, I think that the .44 mag out of a carbine would be over-kill. I would guess that a 180 grain bullet, pushed hard out of a .44 mag carbine would be very close to a .30-30. Of course you have to also consider that the handgun bullet probably wasn't designed for the kind of velocity we are talking about, so it might come apart pretty readily which in this case would be a good thing.I guess if all you had was a carbine in .44 mag, it might be something worthwhile to explore.
I would love to know more about your test procedure, the equipment used, the distance from muzzle. Our experience has been dramatically different with factory loads.
And interestingly, you must not be selling battle rifles and submachine guns in that we sell a TON more UMP's and MP-5's than G36's. The MAIN reason that our clients are buying anything in 5.56 is that they are looking for soft armor defeating rounds. Not because they actually think that the rounds are safer in urban environments. In "real world" shootouts 5.56 is much more dangerous in urban environments...if unchallenged by semi-hard material the round will go thousands of feet with a high lethality.
Again everyone goes back to the FBI tests without realizing that the actual test criteria was not designed to actually evidence what is found in a house but what would work to satisfy a means to an end to support a weapons change.
Same thing happened in the 9mm and .45 ACP debate when the FBI decided that the 9mm was far superior as a defensive round. Only 5 years later they were outfitting with the .40 S&W and they HRT were going BACK to the .45 ACP.
The 5.56 is being adopted because the role of police departments is changing to a semi-military role. Criminals wearing body armor (read: CA bank robbers), concerns of having to engage cars and trucks and to defend against terrorists, and cross compatibility between the police and military is the driving force.
"It has been my experience that the 9mm Luger round benefits very little from a carbine length barrel. Here is a thread I posted with my chrono results between various barrel lengths and varous loads: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthre...ighlight=chrono"
And interestingly, you must not be selling battle rifles and submachine guns in that we sell a TON more UMP's and MP-5's than G36's. The MAIN reason that our clients are buying anything in 5.56 is that they are looking for soft armor defeating rounds. Not because they actually think that the rounds are safer in urban environments. In "real world" shootouts 5.56 is much more dangerous in urban environments...if unchallenged by semi-hard material the round will go thousands of feet with a high lethality.
Again everyone goes back to the FBI tests without realizing that the actual test criteria was not designed to actually evidence what is found in a house but what would work to satisfy a means to an end to support a weapons change.
Same thing happened in the 9mm and .45 ACP debate when the FBI decided that the 9mm was far superior as a defensive round. Only 5 years later they were outfitting with the .40 S&W and they HRT were going BACK to the .45 ACP.
The 5.56 is being adopted because the role of police departments is changing to a semi-military role. Criminals wearing body armor (read: CA bank robbers), concerns of having to engage cars and trucks and to defend against terrorists, and cross compatibility between the police and military is the driving force.
"It has been my experience that the 9mm Luger round benefits very little from a carbine length barrel. Here is a thread I posted with my chrono results between various barrel lengths and varous loads: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthre...ighlight=chrono"
"I would love to know more about your test procedure, the equipment used, the distance from muzzle."
I am assuming you are talking about the 9mm data: all that is listed in the post: equipment used: shooting chrony. Guns and loads are listed. Distance from the muzzle is listed: 15'.
"if unchallenged by semi-hard material the round will go thousands of feet with a high lethality."
Yeah, I think that is pretty much of a given. That is pretty much what rifles and bullets were designed for. If you shoot at a target, thousands of feet away, and it doesn't hit anything in between, it will have a high lethality. However, this thread is discussing the use of a rifle for home defense. I am making a guess here that most of us are talking about shooting it inside a structure, most likely a house built of common building materials. Thus we are interested in how the bullet will perform when hitting a human, and what happens to the bullet after it exits the body or what it will do after a miss and it hits these common building materials.
I don't know a whole lot about these FBI tests. The tests I am referring to were passed out at the Gunsite basic and advanced carbine classes and were done by Gary Roberts and Special Agent Michael Bullian as well as another test done by the Snohomish County Sheriff's Department. In addition I have read of other studies but I can't cite any references. I am also basing this in part on my own experiences firing high velocity rifle rounds and various handgun rounds at animals and various pieces of junk over the years.
I am assuming you are talking about the 9mm data: all that is listed in the post: equipment used: shooting chrony. Guns and loads are listed. Distance from the muzzle is listed: 15'.
"if unchallenged by semi-hard material the round will go thousands of feet with a high lethality."
Yeah, I think that is pretty much of a given. That is pretty much what rifles and bullets were designed for. If you shoot at a target, thousands of feet away, and it doesn't hit anything in between, it will have a high lethality. However, this thread is discussing the use of a rifle for home defense. I am making a guess here that most of us are talking about shooting it inside a structure, most likely a house built of common building materials. Thus we are interested in how the bullet will perform when hitting a human, and what happens to the bullet after it exits the body or what it will do after a miss and it hits these common building materials.
I don't know a whole lot about these FBI tests. The tests I am referring to were passed out at the Gunsite basic and advanced carbine classes and were done by Gary Roberts and Special Agent Michael Bullian as well as another test done by the Snohomish County Sheriff's Department. In addition I have read of other studies but I can't cite any references. I am also basing this in part on my own experiences firing high velocity rifle rounds and various handgun rounds at animals and various pieces of junk over the years.
The Last Confederate
member
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2004
- Messages
- 114
M1 Carbine > M4
A skeletonized stocked, forward optics m1 carbine with hollow points will
outperform an AR15 out to 200 yards. It will perform as well as a Garand or M14.
Think about this. You buy a Ruger 10/22 .22 win mag rifle. You shape the strong hand grip. You drill lighening holes into the stock. You paint it battleship gray. Next, you have a gunsmith (can pick up the telephone and have Bain and Davis, Duarte, CA do it for you) send you a factory barrel with a forward, weaver scope mount. Next you put on a variable pistol scope.
The facory barrel comes off in about a minute. You unscrew the two retaining screws, put on the new barrel and use your screwdriver again.
A .223 is nothing but a .22 win mag out to 125 yards.
You can shoot birds, squirrels, deer and bigger with a ..22 win mag.
Lots are generally only 70 feet in urban areas. People run between buildings and do not stand out like Pacman. The maximum distance across a four lane street with curb parking and set back of buildings from the street is about 200 feet. Am I telling you something?
Low power optics allow you to see into shadows in the day and see without lights or even moonlight at night (assuming a few stars out). How about a precision rifle class at 2 am using low power Leupold optics and kill shots on moving targets at a laser measured 240 yards using M1As.
I really don't see much benefit of a shotgun over a rifle. I do keep a bunch of 870s around for unknowning neighbors. I can train a 15 year old girl how to load and fire in 15 minutes. Use the neighbors as cannon fodder. Horrible thought? What were they going to use you for - to put you in harm's way. and sacrifice you ofcourse.
A skeletonized stocked, forward optics m1 carbine with hollow points will
outperform an AR15 out to 200 yards. It will perform as well as a Garand or M14.
Think about this. You buy a Ruger 10/22 .22 win mag rifle. You shape the strong hand grip. You drill lighening holes into the stock. You paint it battleship gray. Next, you have a gunsmith (can pick up the telephone and have Bain and Davis, Duarte, CA do it for you) send you a factory barrel with a forward, weaver scope mount. Next you put on a variable pistol scope.
The facory barrel comes off in about a minute. You unscrew the two retaining screws, put on the new barrel and use your screwdriver again.
A .223 is nothing but a .22 win mag out to 125 yards.
You can shoot birds, squirrels, deer and bigger with a ..22 win mag.
Lots are generally only 70 feet in urban areas. People run between buildings and do not stand out like Pacman. The maximum distance across a four lane street with curb parking and set back of buildings from the street is about 200 feet. Am I telling you something?
Low power optics allow you to see into shadows in the day and see without lights or even moonlight at night (assuming a few stars out). How about a precision rifle class at 2 am using low power Leupold optics and kill shots on moving targets at a laser measured 240 yards using M1As.
I really don't see much benefit of a shotgun over a rifle. I do keep a bunch of 870s around for unknowning neighbors. I can train a 15 year old girl how to load and fire in 15 minutes. Use the neighbors as cannon fodder. Horrible thought? What were they going to use you for - to put you in harm's way. and sacrifice you ofcourse.
DHart
Member
Considering a close range use for a home owner, not necessarily in a densely packed urban environment, but perhaps more rural, I think a .45Colt lever carbine with 16" barrel would make an excellent defense weapon. If we assume that a factory .45Colt defense load (CorBon, Speer GoldDot, etc.) might increase velocity by 150 fps when fired from a 16" barrel vs. the published velocities out of a 5" pistol, the following data would result:
CorBon EST ballistics with 16" barrel (est. increase in vel. of 150 fps over 5" barrel)
45C200/20 45Colt 200gr JHP Vel >>> 1225
45C200/20 45Colt 200gr JHP Energy >>>694
Georgia Arms GoldDot JHP EST ballistics w/16" barrel (est. vel increase of 150 fps over 5" barrel)
G45LE 45Colt 200gr GoldDotJHP Vel >>>1225
G45LE 45Colt 200gr GoldDotJHP Energy >>>694
Georgia Arms JHP EST ballistics w/16" barrel (est. vel increase of 150 fps over 5" barrel)
G45new 45Colt 260gr JHP Vel >>>1150
G45new 45Colt 260gr JHP Energy >>>763
Speer Gold Dot EST ballistics with 16" barrel (est. increase in vel. of 150 fps over 5" barrel)
23984 45Colt 250gr GoldDotJHP Vel >>>1050
23984 45Colt 250gr GoldDotJHP Energy >>>612
Winchester Super X - EST ballistics w/16" barrel (est. increase in vel. of 150 fps over 5" barrel)
X45CSHP2 45Colt 255gr SilverTipHP Vel >>>1070
X45CSHP2 45Colt 255gr SilverTipHP Energy >>>648
These numbers look pretty darned good for home defense. Not so sure about dealing with armored bank robbers or terrorists, but for home defense against the average "intruder" plenty of power without being too much.
The bonded GoldDot bullet is likely to hold together quite well and since the velocities are not dramatically higher than the bullets were designed to expand at, terminal bullet performance is likely to be very good. Penetration should also be very good (desireable in my view). A semi-hot and semi-heavy .45Colt from a carbine just inspires confidence in me somehow. This is the direction I am leaning toward for myself... though other choices are certainly as good or better.
CorBon EST ballistics with 16" barrel (est. increase in vel. of 150 fps over 5" barrel)
45C200/20 45Colt 200gr JHP Vel >>> 1225
45C200/20 45Colt 200gr JHP Energy >>>694
Georgia Arms GoldDot JHP EST ballistics w/16" barrel (est. vel increase of 150 fps over 5" barrel)
G45LE 45Colt 200gr GoldDotJHP Vel >>>1225
G45LE 45Colt 200gr GoldDotJHP Energy >>>694
Georgia Arms JHP EST ballistics w/16" barrel (est. vel increase of 150 fps over 5" barrel)
G45new 45Colt 260gr JHP Vel >>>1150
G45new 45Colt 260gr JHP Energy >>>763
Speer Gold Dot EST ballistics with 16" barrel (est. increase in vel. of 150 fps over 5" barrel)
23984 45Colt 250gr GoldDotJHP Vel >>>1050
23984 45Colt 250gr GoldDotJHP Energy >>>612
Winchester Super X - EST ballistics w/16" barrel (est. increase in vel. of 150 fps over 5" barrel)
X45CSHP2 45Colt 255gr SilverTipHP Vel >>>1070
X45CSHP2 45Colt 255gr SilverTipHP Energy >>>648
These numbers look pretty darned good for home defense. Not so sure about dealing with armored bank robbers or terrorists, but for home defense against the average "intruder" plenty of power without being too much.
The bonded GoldDot bullet is likely to hold together quite well and since the velocities are not dramatically higher than the bullets were designed to expand at, terminal bullet performance is likely to be very good. Penetration should also be very good (desireable in my view). A semi-hot and semi-heavy .45Colt from a carbine just inspires confidence in me somehow. This is the direction I am leaning toward for myself... though other choices are certainly as good or better.
Do recall that 100 fps can make a big difference in pistol bullet expansion. It's pretty well known that in .45 ACP, bullets that work fine out of a 5" Gov't model sometimes don't expand out of an Officer's model. That amounts to only about 80fps difference, as I've chrono'd Fed HS out of both guns.
.22 Magnum Rimfire...Hmmm...
Oh, I'm getting an idea...Now what size action is that?
...Ya think a BG would say ouch when shot by a .17 HMR ? I think we solved an overpenetration issue, too.
I believe we may have a winner...and I finally have a reason to buy one.
.22 Magnum Rimfire...Hmmm...
Oh, I'm getting an idea...Now what size action is that?
...Ya think a BG would say ouch when shot by a .17 HMR ? I think we solved an overpenetration issue, too.
I believe we may have a winner...and I finally have a reason to buy one.
- Status
