Best close-quarters defense rifles?

[lycanthrope]

Your ability to place fast accurate rounds will also be greatly enhanced with a longgun.

That depends. In a small room, a handgun can be accessed faster and will acquire a target better than a long gun if the user has proficiency. Try an "El Presidente" with a handgun and then a 16" AR. The pistol will swing faster and negotiate obstacles much easier.

However....past 15 yards, the long gun rules. Stopping power is better at all ranges.

 

[JWH 223]

KLR,

JWH 223

Where did you get the G-36K rail that is on your Bushmaster M-17?

It is a custom job...I started with the rail and irons off of a SL8-1 that I still had laying around.....some chopping and milling later, it's on the M17.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I recommend people considering a home defense weapon try a little experiment. First, measure off the longest shot you might have in your house. Make a "wall" with 2X4s and wallboard, and shoot at it at that range. Most people will find that at that range, a load of Number 6 shot makes a single large hole.

For in-home defense, a shotgun is difficult to beat -- it is highly effective at the short ranges encountered inside a house, and while a load of Number 6 or 4 WILL penetrate inner walls, it won't penetrate outer walls and the outer wall of the neighbor's house.

 

[44]

I read somewhere about a policeman who deliberately locks up his handgun and gets out his shotgun when he gets home. His purpose is to dedicate himself to home defense with ONLY the shotgun so he will never launch deadly stray bullets through the walls.
I suppose he uses a shot that poses little danger on the opposite side of a wall. 44

 

[MrMurphy]

Basically any birdshot will penetrate drywall and sheetrock.

i saw a suicide where about two dozen pellets still penetrated the ceiling overheard even after quite literally removing the guy's head from the jaw up. Or about 80% of it. I think it was no.7 shot? several hundred small pellets.

 

[355sigfan]

That depends. In a small room, a handgun can be accessed faster and will acquire a target better than a long gun if the user has proficiency. Try an "El Presidente" with a handgun and then a 16" AR. The pistol will swing faster and negotiate obstacles much easier.

However....past 15 yards, the long gun rules. Stopping power is better at all ranges.
END QUOTE

Unless your in a tunnel on your knees the long gun is better. I have recieved training as a basic swat operator. We take M4's into trailer homes and have no difficulty with them. I have been in my share of shoot houses and I can tell you that a long gun is almost always preferable to a handgun from 0 to 10000 yards. As far as the elpresident drill its faster with a M4 try it. I included this stage in all three events of a 3 gun competition locally and the handgun times are as they should be slower than the carbines and the shotguns. No disrespect but your way off base on this one.
Pat

 

[444]

I am no big time three gun shooter, nor am I any kind of gunfighter. But I have done a lot of El Presidente's with the carbine and I am MUCH faster with the carbine (and an Aimpoint). Again, not that I am a good shooter, but 90% of my shooting, competition, and training over the years was done with handguns. I always considered myself a pretty decent handgun shooter and a mediocre at best rifle shooter.

 

[44]

What would be a good rule of thumb for the Maximum Overall Length of an indoor home defense rifle or shotgun? Thanks. 44

 

[Vern Humphrey]

My home defense gun is an Ithaca Model 37 with the 20" smoothbore slug barrel installed. I find it about ideal when it comes to length and handiness.

However, you should construct scenarios and run them -- try to figure out what might happen, and develop tactics to counter it. Run through your scenarios and see how your current weapon fits.

 

[lycanthrope]

As far as the elpresident drill its faster with a M4 try it. I included this stage in all three events of a 3 gun competition locally and the handgun times are as they should be slower than the carbines and the shotguns. No disrespect but your way off base on this one

You men can turn, 180 degrees, double tap 3 targets, reload and double tap 3 targets in under 6 seconds with your carbines? I can do that with my pistol pretty easily, but getting a reload done on a carbine in under 2 seconds is admirable IMHO.

 

[355sigfan]

The reload is a tad slower depending on how your spare ammo is set up but the shooting is much faster with the carbine. Thats the reason we always take a long gun to a gun call they hit faster and harder. Hand guns are only there if the long gun runs dry or malfunctions.
Pat

 

[lycanthrope]

I agree to harder. I can simply run the handgun much faster.

 

[355sigfan]

That seems strange to me no disrespect. I have shot pistols for quite a while and not trying to brag, but I am the best shot at my department with a pistol. But even with my handgun skill I find that the carbine is far faster. First off you can get away with far worse and sloppier trigger control and still hit your target. With the handgun trigger control is everything. With longguns their far more forgiving. I must admit I am using an Eotech sight and this speeds things up considerably. Then their is the issue of recoil. With a 223 carbine there is very little muzzle jump you can shoot nearly as fast as you can pull the trigger at close range. With the handgun recoil is more of a factor.

The only real advantage I can see to a handgun may be if your doing an entry on a Bus or other area where you would have to elevate your weapon to hit a target thats below you. But for the most part I can not see a place where a handgun would be a better tool.
Pat

 

[444]

I think it depends on what you practice with. I haven't done any El Presidente's with anything for six months or more, so I doubt if I could do anything sensational. But I HAVE done sub six second El Presidente's with both handgun and carbine and I am sure I could again with a very little practice. The carbine reload is not any slower than the handgun. I use Bladetek mag carriers which sit on my belt pretty much just like my handgun magazine pouches. The only issue is if you are using an AR15, some magazines won't always easily lock up. Of course the magazines that I don't baby; the ones I like to practice speed reloads with and drop on the ground are the ones that don't like to lock up.
I have a video of me doing a carbine El Pres at Gunsite 223. If I think of it, I will see how long it took me. I seem to remember though that we started facing the targets at the low ready. I also remember that the one I did on the video wasn't that good because when I finish, I started shaking my head.

 

[lbmii]

Well my personal choice is a 12 gauge with a load of 12 pellets of .32 caliber single ought buck (16 inches of penetration in ballistic gelatin). However I am impressed with a new carbine by Ruger that can be had in 9mm or 40 caliber. Also I used to have a M1 Carbine that I think would be pretty good but its' high penetration and poor ammo choice was a concern of mine.

At one time I think you could get a small pump action Rossi carbine in 357, this would seem almost ideal. Anyone know of a 16-inch barrel pump action carbine that is still being made?

I would favor a very light hollow point bullet for a 223 carbine for explosive expansion. I think a light hollow point 45 or 50-grain varmint load would be best in a 223 carbine. However I understand you have to use lighter springs in order to have reliable cycling of the action.

I would also say the same for pistol rounds fired from carbines. I would go with a hollow point 180-grain high velocity round for the 44 mag and a hollow point 125 grain high velocity round for the 357 mag, 185 grain for the 45, 155 grain for the 40 S&W and 115 for the 9mm.

 

[355sigfan]

I personally would not go any lighter than 55 grains with the 223. Its already explosive and a tad under penetrative. I prefer the 69 grain loads.
Pat

 

[Mac Attack]

for CQC (i.e. really close fighting) I would take a Shotgun over a centerfire rifle any day of the week.

 

[44]

Is #4 buck best for home defense? Or #7 shot? Or what?

I've heard that stray 00 will penetrate walls and remain lethal. Also heard about a lady being killed a block down the street with one stray 00 pellet from a police shooting.

Have also heard the complaint that if there's a hostage, you are sunk with a shotgun.

What about these things? Keeps me from depending on the shotgun and thinking about becoming expert with the precision 223 rifle: no misses, no strays. Thanks. 44

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Quote:
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Is #4 buck best for home defense? Or #7 shot? Or what?

I've heard that stray 00 will penetrate walls and remain lethal. Also heard about a lady being killed a block down the street with one stray 00 pellet from a police shooting.
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You've just about answered your own question. Number 6 shot will kill at any reasonable range inside a house. Try it as I suggested -- measure your ranges, then make up a "wall" with scrap 2X4s and wallboard and shoot it at that range. If you like, put another behind it at the distance of the next wall.

Quote:
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Have also heard the complaint that if there's a hostage, you are sunk with a shotgun.
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What do you intend to do, shoot the hostage taker while he has a knife at the throat of the hostage (or a gun to her head?)

There aren't many people who would take that risk -- the best bet is to keep the hostage-taker engaged and keep him from leaving with the hostage -- that means get as close as you can.

But if you HAVE to shoot -- take a look at that "wall" again. From ten feet or soo, there's no difference between a charge of number 6s and a bullet.

 

[Black Snowman]

The pistol will swing faster

This is actually the major reason I prefer a long gun in a defensive situation. It's a lot harder to REALLY screw up POA and shoot something you REALLY didn't want to. Like yourself.

 

[artherd]

"Bringing an automatic rifle to a gunfight is like bringing a chainsaw to a knife-fight."

 

[KLR]

Thanks JWH!

 

[jAK-47]

My choices for home defense:
1)Just about any short barrelled shotgun with the right load. Saiga 12 gauge. No over-penetration and PLENTY of power/kill zone. I would NOT use anything but a shotgun for home defense unless I had to.
2)If you have to use a rifle, the KelTec with 10 - 33 rounds (depends on your magazine) of 124gr +P Gold Dots would be nice OR Lever action in anything 45 or over would work - practice follow-up shots.
3)Handgun choice for me would be the Glock21 with Gold Dot 185gr +P.

Hey, it's just MY preferences. YMMV.

jAK-47

 

[cracked butt]

I'm going to be the odd man out and say the M1 garand. An old Marine showed me how they used to train to used them in close quarters and it actually scared the hell out of me as to how effective that big old club with a sharp pointy thing on the other end can be in trained hands. Wouldn't be my first choice by far, but its a MUCH better bludgeon than most.

 

[Pug Puppy]

Hmmm...
Many good points! Here a few of mine:
1 . Avoid USA magazines. They are junk.
2. Stick to RNL, SP, LFP, HP, Powerball, and Range Safe rounds. They reportedly are reliable-feeding and reportedly donot oerpenetrate.
3. If you buy Russian HP, MAKE SURE THAT the HP that you buyis lead core.
The non-lead hollowpoints shoot through a six inch sycamore tree and keep on flying.
Hope this helps.