Best Riot Rifle

[belus]

I like the idea of a lever action - especially if chambered in a complimentary revolver cartridge.

As far as rate of fire or time to reload, I think something can be learned from Cowboy Action Shooters. Legally it seems much easier to get away with a lever action too

Rate of fire: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81yFOlRlNmY
(albeit with reduced power loads)

Reloading: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-tbT3iSvGM

And as a bonus you've partially prepared yourself for a fun shooting sport.

 

[B.D. Turner]

If I had no choice but to live in the socialist republic of california and were in fear of riots or other civil unrest my choice would be the Marlin 1894 in .44 magnum with 11 rounds on tap this is one handy CAR (cowboy assault rifle)

 

[hga]

In a riot, it's all about psychological effects. '60s history in the LA area shows one person getting shot and killed (trying to run a M2 defended roadblock as I remember, I think it was Jerry Pournelle relating the story) can end it all as the word gets out.

The National Review published an account after the Rodney King riots of one stopped in Panama some decades earlier. 5-6 policemen with nothing more than their service revolvers walked down a street towards the mob, shooting in front of them. Maximum effect with least injury was achieved by ricochets and especially pavement fragments hitting the legs of the people, but again, it was the forceful response that did the trick, not injuring or killing lots of people per se.

If you have to stop one at long range, obviously a rifle, obviously preferably a box magazine fed one. In California, which has a 10 round magazine limit (right?) I'd go with a M1 Garand, you'd get a higher rate of fire with it than anything more modern that's limited in magazine size (and maybe even vs. 20 round magazines, the Garand is very fast to reload).

For shorter ranges and with the Panama example in mind, I have an 12ga 870 with the Flexitab fix and a one round magazine extension with a lot of #1 buckshot (Federal Classic 2 3/4-inch F127): many more .30 pellets vs. 00's .33, and if you're using it for direct fire it has LOTS more surface area than 00 with sufficient Fackler penetration and less over-penetration.

And for psychological effects, e.g. the idea of hitting pavement in front of a mob, in terms of effective projectiles let loose in the least time I doubt you can beat it or another suitable shotgun. Well, the White House is guarded by men with P90s, it's ideal and a lot more discriminate for this sort of thing, but it'll be a long time if ever before we'll be able to buy new full auto weapons, and I don't even want to think about the legal posture a civilian would be in if he used "a machine gun (gasp!)" to defend his life.

But I'll note that NONE of the Rodney King rioters were shot by defenders (civilian or police), which no doubt explains the long duration ... unfortunately, as others have noted, using lethal force instead of the "warning shots" we're warned never to use would probably result in a very bad legal outcome, at least in a place like LA. What can you say about a locality that withdraws its police, bans ammo sales (15 day waiting period made gun sales irrelevant), and had an official and confirmed policy of confiscating civilian weapons?

Ah, a note on that ammo sales ban: I recall someone mentioning they'd gone into the mountains and shot all their ammo recreationally, and then got back home in LA just in time for the riot. Never ever shoot all your ammo unless death is the only alternative.

- Harold

 

[SimpleIsGood229]

The combat implement ever devised (M1 Garand) sounds ideal. Keep a couple hundred rounds in clips and you'll be good.

...and since you're in the PRK, the M1 is outdated, obsolete, 60 year-old ''technology,'' afterall.

Another thing is that the M1 is literally the funnest gun I've ever shot! I've shot a few, too.

 

[ECVMatt]

Just a couple of small corrections...

lots of rioters were shot by police and civilians...I will find the reference asap. Our local police were station at an area that was used as a make shift morgue. While they were waiting to be deployed they said bodies were dropped off with little or no investigation. Most bodies came from areas that had settled down. My guess would be that the folks who lived there shot them.

And you could still purchase ammo in LA County, just not the city. The store where I worked was about 20 minutes from the city and we sold tons of ammo. Almost every round in the store. However I agree that you should never let your stash get low. Those would be a harrowing 20 minutes to get to our store and the police had all the major freeways shut down.

Bottom line is be prepared to take care of yourself and your family. As I said before, any working firearm that you have experience with will do. Leveractions are great, Semi and shotguns are good too.

Here is some more info:

http://www.emergency.com/la-riots.htm

I agree that early shooting of rioters would have stopped this thing cold. By the time these idiots started getting shot, there was just too much going.

 

[hga]

lots of rioters were shot by police and civilians...I will find the reference asap. [ mentions his local police station was used as a make shift morgue. ]

I'd be very interested in that reference. The reports I heard that made it to the other side of the nation indicated there were plenty of deaths (although as I remember fewer than the normal rate!!!), but none could be attributed to defenders. This is part of my thesis that a lack of people getting shot by defenders helped lengthen the riot.

And you could still purchase ammo in LA County, just not the city. [ And the store he worked in was just about cleaned out. ]

Of course; my point was more about the posture of LA city: the subjects were abandoned to the tender mercies of the mob, and everything LA dared to do was done to prevent self-defense (as far as I remember the police didn't have the stones to actually confiscate any guns, but it was confirmed policy, name of the PR official and all). Bottom line, from this, Katrina, at least one recent Florida hurricane, etc. etc.: in an emergency, you and your neighborhood may well find yourself completely on your own, with the authorities effectively your enemies, or just not there if you're lucky....

However I agree that you should never let your stash get low. Those would be a harrowing 20 minutes to get to our store and the police had all the major freeways shut down.

Indeed. I'm sure plenty of people did not have the option of getting to your store or others, and you just never know if you'll be stuck in place (maybe you'll injure a leg just before an emergency...).

[...] As I said before, any working firearm that you have experience with will do....

This I would like to emphasize, the best gun in the world is the one you have with you. And one you know how to use; better a cheaper rifle and more money budgeted to practice ammo and range time than the best rifle and not enough of the latter.

But I'd argue one point I forgot on choices: make sure it's of military design or quality. If you need to maintain a high rate of fire, your gun will heat up more than it would in e.g. any normal hunting event. Some civilian design guns will then jam, military ones are obviously designed to avoid this (although your handguard just might catch on fire, e.g. old AR-180s have heat shields, the new ones are reported not to).

I agree that early shooting of rioters would have stopped this thing cold. By the time these idiots started getting shot, there was just too much going.

This might be in the area of "we just can't say". But a lot was said then that other riots, even ones days into the event, were stopped cold by one forceful event by the authorties and the word then spreading.

In this case, the police never did that. As I recall, it was burning itself out about the time the National Guard arrived, but your up close and personal memories are likely to be a lot better. I was living in Arlington, VA at the time, my girlfriend and I had some vacation time saved up and were planning on going into D.C. to some of the museums and the like. There was a little bit of violence in D.C., but we just stayed home and watched the TV in horror.

- Harold

 

[kBob]

FUNDERB!

In Florida firing a firearm in the direction of another person is considered the use of deadly force in an assault.

It does not make any difference legally if you use beanbads, rubber shot, rubber or wood slugs or whatever.

If you discharge a firearm in the direction of another person (notice that may well include "warning shots") you must have reason to use deadly force.

The danger of having "less than leathal" ammunition is that one may be tempted to use it before they actually have a reason to use deadly force.

Bean bags inside of 7 yards can be deadly and some even at longer ranges whether you mean them to be so or not. If you are shooting at much further than 7 yards then the states attourney or plantiffs attourney will certainly point out that a person not armed with a gun is not a viable deadly threat to you (whether this is true or not) and that you used deadly force without the need to do so.

While you are protected in FLorida from criminal prosicution in the case that the person you used deadly force upon was commitiing a forcable felony in which a reasonable person would have felt deadlyy force was warrented, in a riot situation you may have a problem proving that months later when 47 other folks are claiming you shot amongst them and hit williemac with you bean bag causing him great pain and suffering and loss of work etc, etc.

In a state like Kaliforn-ia where a bad guy can break into your home and then sue you because he tripped over your coffee table in the dark, and win, I would not advise anyone to purchase "less than leathal" ammo.


Everyone,

As to the best rifle for Riots, a very short one called a pistol or revolver might be best outside your home or business.

Inside those places any rifle you are comfortable and familure with will beat anything someone on the internet recommends that you buy then hardly ever shoot. A .22LR semi auto you can shoot and hit with beats an AKRWhatever that you bought and put away after a little bit of training with. Still you may have a hard time justifying shooting anyone not in your business or home or especially not in the immediate area (like within a yard or two of the same).

In any case where will your shots stop at?

I admit that the sight of an semi auto version of a modern military rifle can be intimadating and threatening to a felon and stop the felonious action immediatly ( I even acctually have experienced that first hand, twice). Unfortunately they also intimedate and frighten the neighbors who may call you to the attention of the LEOs AND many LEOs are frightened and allarmed to the extend that they may well over react to you legally displaying such a fire arm.

As to folks pointing out the utility of a shotgun outside the home or business......note that the reason many LEAs are going to pistol or .223 caliber carbines is the lack of ability to acount for where every piece of shot goes when a shotgun is used. SUre you can draw cones of fire and talk about the inverse square law all day, but where does that one flyier go? How about that shot that barely mises the bad guy went half a block hit a parking meter or parked car and then crused down a side street to kill someone around the corner (And yes this is a realistic scenerio as it has happened)?

Using deadly force is a very serious matter, outside the home or business it becomes even more serious.

The absolute best rifle for a riot situation is a "gone rifle" as in my rifle and I are gone away from the riot area.

-Bob Hollingsworth

 

[Harley Quinn]

Using deadly force is a very serious matter, outside the home or business it becomes even more serious.

The absolute best rifle for a riot situation is a "gone rifle" as in my rifle and I are gone away from the riot area.
*************

As has been stated the laws and fines and legal fees will kill your pocket book which will cause you severe anxiety and death via the slow artery clog. So if you decide to go out "shooting down the bad guy" with a set of good arteries maybe that is not all bad

Most talk the talk but when the time to walk it, few and far between. The amount in the service vs the amount breathing free air is a good example.

Been that way since the "American Revolution" small percentage took up the cause.

But if you are so inclined a good weapon is one you are familiar with and can shoot well not to over powered but has a good reputation.

The M1 was mentioned the mini 14 also one that has mags is good. Whatever it is you can be sure it is up to the job far better than most who give verbiage of BS... The above tact^^^ is more like the real scenario folks...

 

[Funderb]

KBOB!

So it is, but reading all of that, you negated my argument, and in doing so, the argument that you should be armed in said situation.

Comes out that you are screwed no matter what. In which case, I still stick to my same idea of "run the hell away". There is no reason to condemn yourself to that situation.
I am pretty sure that if you do decide to stay, and kill four or five people "defending yourself" with your AR, sks, m1carbine, whatever, either you will be killed there when you run out of ammo, or you will be killed subsequently after due process. Just try working a case of quadruple homicide and getting off scot free.

 

[Ergosphere]

Funderb, I agree that avoiding trouble areas is prudent; however I will defend my home in a riot situation.

I am pretty sure that if you do decide to stay, and kill four or five people "defending yourself" with your AR, sks, m1carbine, whatever, either you will be killed there when you run out of ammo, or you will be killed subsequently after due process.

That's possible, but also note the abundance of dead bodies, and lack of prosecutions or even investigations into their homicides, during the LA riots. If it's really a SHTF riot like those in LA, well... the police didn't seem to interested in tracking down people who killed rioters.

My concern, in the bay area, is the aftermath of a major earthquake on the Hayward or San Andreas faults. In this situation it may be extremely difficult to travel, due to road damage and traffic congestion on the roads that are passable (if any). It may be practically impossible to travel home from work; fleeing from an unruly crowd of looters may not be easy.

In this sort of situation, my wife and I will be well armed in defending our home (M1A, shotguns, and pistols). If we get caught away from home, the life becomes... interesting...

 

[Funderb]

fair enough.
In california, can you have 2 firearms in your trunk?
because I still think a shotgun may prove more useful in some situations.
Don't get me wrong, I am a rifle guy through and through. the only shotgun I own is a handmedown bolt .410. I just figure ease of use and good close quarter capability might be as useful as medium range hard hitters.

 

[Ergosphere]

In california, can you have 2 firearms in your trunk?

The law does not specify any limit.

Don't get me wrong, I am a rifle guy through and through

Me too... but you can't argue with a shotgun when things get "up close and personal."

I don't have a "trunk gun" at the moment, but this thread is a good reminder that I should. Unfortunately I drive a hatchback. There is a small storage compartment in the rear, but I don't think it'll fit a long gun. Hmm...

 

[cluttonfred]

[Begin quote]
I don't have a "trunk gun" at the moment, but this thread is a good reminder that I should. Unfortunately I drive a hatchback. There is a small storage compartment in the rear, but I don't think it'll fit a long gun. Hmm...
[End quote]

Depending on the compartment, some of the options we've mentioned as break-down rifles might do the job. There is always the option of a pistol-grip shotgun as well, but that's definitely not low profile or PC.

Of course, the problem with many of these break-down rifles if you are talking about personal defense is the time it takes to deploy them. Taking a cue from the old MAS 36 CR 39 and the Kel-Tec SU-16, someone should start making a folding, non-pistol grip stock for common rifles. As long as it blocks the trigger when folded, and maybe requires removing the magazine like the Kel-Tec, it would pass in all the assault-weapon-phobic places but still be great for storing a rifle in a vehicle and deploying it quickly.

That MAS 36 CR 39 has a great party trick, by the way. The sling is on a spring-loaded roller, like a seat belt, so it rolls up into the stock when you fold it. Here is a better link on the MAS 36 CR 39 with lots of photos, but in French.

Choate, Ram-Line, ATI, are you listening? ;-)

 

[Kentucky]

either you will be killed there when you run out of ammo

I dont understand this phrase "run out of ammo". Just how many people are there in California?

 

[XD-40 Shooter]

During the '92 LA Riots, the Korean shop owners held off the mob pretty effectively with the good o'le SKS. They're shops were the only ones left standing and not looted on the block.

 

[chauncey]

if someone "made" me live in CA, I'd go with a Garand. I wouldn't go with a Tanker, they seem to be too much of a mixed bag for reliability and quality of build.

if I had to pick a non-semiauto, I'd pick an Enfield. It's a very fast, smooth bolt.

both load quickly and shoot accurately.

 

[Mauserguy]

So I was thinking about the replies in this thread and came up with a solution. I reached into the safe and pulled out an old Mauser. It is an old Gewer, made in Danzig in 1916. It was altered to approximate a K98K in the 1930s, then imported in the 1960s. My dad bought it in a drug store. The importer chopped the stock, but left he metal as the Wermacht wanted it.

It is a handly little 8MM. It has a decent bore and an excellent crown. The old girl probably saw two world wars, so she is good enough for me. Put some stripper clips in a shoulder pouch, and I think I have a good, smooth, reliable riot rifle.
Mauserguy

 

[Funderb]

Hey! that one looks like the one I just finished making. Right down to the handgard.

 

[Mauserguy]

Is that a Yugo?
Mauserguy

 

[Funderb]

Indeed.
It was a fun little project. Also a blast to shoot. Kicks a little hard, but it came out to be, surprisingly, a 1moa rifle, and I'm sure it shoots better than me.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Quote:
What is it that CA considers an assault weapon?

That's best answered with the flowchart.

Wow. My oh my [shaking head]. Those crazy "non-thumbhole" stocks for AR that make an end run around the law - those alone prove the absurdity of trying to ban so-called "assault weapons" - are they somehow less deadly? Attention California Legislators - you are idiots. If you want to make sausage, go work in a sausage plant - in fact, do *anything* but try to 'serve the public', and we'll all be the better for it.

 

[mgregg85]

I think i'd prefer a shotgun in a riot, though a hi cap rifle could be handy.

I'd like my sub-2000 with the 33 round mags. Light recoil, fast reloads, compact and easy to hide if needed. Could carry a lot of ammo easily.(I keep 50 rounds on mine, 33 round mag in the gun and a 17 rounder on the buttstock mag holder).

 

[FuzzyBunny]

I am not a big fan of Dragons Breath.

In a riot though the psychological effect of seeing a few rounds of that being lit off down the block would change my mind about going that way. They sure are impressive at night in an urban environment. Sure does cause a "What the heck was that" effect. Fired from a roof top would just be awesome. I doubt you would even have to hit anyone with it! Just fire off a few rounds every now and then to let them know there is a dragon down that way. This would be good in a defensive position.

If I was not protecting property or lives then I would make my way out of the area.

As far a rifles go, small overall size and .223 or larger round would do the trick. Magazine fed of course. Somethng I could run fast with.

 

[goon]

I'm thinking...

1. Don't live in California. Ever.

2. If you must, get yourself six Mosins. If you have to shoot someone, toss the rifle as soon as the riot is over and pretend you didn't see nuthin'. You should still be set for the next five riots.
Just kidding - sort of...

3. A handgun really is the gun you'd be most likely to have with you. Like it or not, it is what it is. Cops don't carry handguns because they're the best thing ever, they carry them because that's what they can carry easily.

4. If you really see the need to keep one in your trunk, make it a fairly cheap one. That way if your car gets stolen or torched before you can get your rifle out, at least you're not out the cost of a really expensive rifle.
How expensive/common are lever action 30-30's in California? They're a pretty good compromise between cost, firepower, and reliability and not restricted.

 

[GunTech]

Just dropped by my favorite local gun shop and they are selling Mosin for $79. Actually less, because they added in a 10% discount. Came with bayonet and ammo pouches too.