best shotgun for home defense??

[Dave McCracken]

Actually, I "threw down the gauntlet" not to demonstrate the superiority of either an 870 or a Benelli, but to show that the critical factor was the shooter, not the tool he or she picks.

Maybe a thread on what makes a good shotgun is due.

As for the original question of what shotgun to get for home defense, my pick MIGHT be an 870 for most folks, or a 20 gauge 1100 for pixies.

Training and experience are more important than brand.

 

[Mastrogiacomo]

Tried the Remey 870 in a store last night but not the 18" express synthetic I had been eyeing. It was heavy! I think it was a 26" barrel. Don't know if I'd have the strenth for the that...the 20 gauge as a 21" or 22" barrel (possibly a 20" but I don't recall) and it felt easier to hold. The sales guy said the 20 gauge was great for home defense as well especially since some women, like his girlfriend, prefer it to the 12. Unfortunatley, it's not a great choice for shooting clays....

I've got to choose something with a barrel length (unless I'm good then I can go with the shorter barrels but harder to hit). I'm lost trying to think of a 12 I could hold and shoot with. Natually, I'll have to wait on buying until I take some lessons in and try using them first.

 

[PJR]

The sales guy said the 20 gauge was great for home defense as well especially since some women, like his girlfriend, prefer it to the 12. Unfortunatley, it's not a great choice for shooting clays....

Paging HSMITH. There's a sales guy is Massachusetts who needs refuting.

In the meantime let me add my two cents worth. Anyone who says the 20 gauge isn't a great choice for clays hasn't done much clay shooting. It will do just fine on any of the games.

What is more important is that you have a gun you are comfortable and familiar with. A gun that is too heavy, recoils excessively and/or fits poorly doens't encourage you to get out and practice. It is infinitely better to have a 20 gauge with which you are comfortable.

I think an excellent choice for shooting clays is the Beretta 391 in 20 gauge. It's light, recoils less due to the gas action and is available in a Youth model with shorter stocks and barrels. Reminton also makes a shorter version of the 1100 and 870 in 20. They are all good choices.

Paul

 

[Dave McCracken]

Mastro, most women I've taught(maybe 100) have been quite capable of holding and operating a 12 gauge. Many would have been more comfortable with a 20, all else equal.

Janice Parks, formerly of MD DOC and at last hearing with the US Marshalls, is close to your size and absolutely deadly with a riot 870. Committment and mindset are big reasons why. Good training helped.

And, a 20 works for clays, and at some games, works very, very well.

While you're deciding which one, try doing curls and presses with very light weights, say 5 lb ones for starters and go to 8 lbs when things build up. After you get a few lessons and start shooting, your shotgun of choice makes a great barbell(G)...

HTH....

 

[themic]

for me, mossy 500 with 2 3/4" #8 birdshot (do not want to overpenetrate in an apt building) and my shortest smooth bore non-tapered barrel

 

[Kimber Kid]

Dave, if I lived within a 2 hour drive of Central Md, I'd move.

And like the Benelli ad says a shooter CAN put 5 shells in the air at once, try that with your "serious" 870.

If your ever get to a state shoot in Mason Michigan or the Grand let me know. I would consider it a honor to receive a shooting lesson from you.

KK

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

I can put five shells in the air with my mossberg.


I'd have to grab it by the barrel and swing it like a bat, though.



why on earth do you find the ability to put five empty cases in the air so greviously important?

 

[Nippy]

I have a 11-87 which is a semi-auto loaded with 2 3/4" Federal Premium 00 buck. I don't put any slugs because I don't see any use for them within the range of an apartment defense situation.

When your home gets burglerized or what not chances are there is more than one person so I would opt with a semi-auto for speed to engage multiple targets even if I had a pump.

I agree with Dave that speed depends on the shooters skill.

For me though, I know that there is no way I can shoot faster and more accurate with a pump than with a semi-auto. I would think that hands down, in the same hands, a semi-auto is faster than a pump. So I opted to get comfortable with a semi-auto.

KimberKid: 5 shells? You need a mag-extension so you can put 8 in the air

 

[Al Thompson]

That salesman is sadly mistaken - I actually do quite well with my 20 at all clay games. Well, as good as I can do with my 12s.

I had a benelli and found the manual of arms to be so out of line with my 1100/870 muscle memory that I sold it. Yes their fast, but except for games or military action, IMHO, it's a wonderful solution to a non-existant problem. The icing onthe cake was that I sold the Benelli and bought two police trade-in 870s and a bunch of ammo for that amount of money. IMHO, I more than doubled my capability for the money.

The youth model shotguns are real sleepers for HD. Ayoob talks about them in his shotgun book and I agree with his point that they work very well, regardless of your skills. Anything you can do with a 12, you can do better with a 20.

 

[rxw]

Okay... I'm here to learn. From what I've gathered form reading HD posts is the following "general" rules of thumb regarding 12 and 20 gauge:

Typical Spread:
1 inch spread per 1 yard
= 15 inches (1 foot) @ 15 yards
= 25 inches (2 foot) @ 25 yards
= 30 inches (2.5 foot) @ 30 yards
= 45 inches (4 foot) @ 45 yards

Optimal Loads:
- Any buckshot if within 30 feet (000/00 is a real knockdown, but too much penetration for HD, but great for open defense... use Nr. 4 or greater for HD)
- More pellets if outside 30 feet (BB is better)
- Slugs if beyond 45 feet
- For monsters & aliens, several rounds of "depleted Uranium rubbed with garlic" is best.

 

[BerettaNut92]

And like the Benelli ad says a shooter CAN put 5 shells in the air at once, try that with your "serious" 870.

The same guy can do the same thing with that Benelli Nova...you can download the video, it's pretty rad.

I'm sure Dave could whoop me if I had his serious shotgun and he had a spear, but I dare him to bring a guitar to a banjofight

 

[Dave McCracken]

K-Kid, 5 shells in the air will only impress me if they match with 5 COM hits on 5 different targets.

If you're that one shotgunner out of umpteen good enough use to use all that speed productively, you should give ME the lesson. And if you are that shotgunner, you'll be absol-freakin' deadly with ANY decent shotgun.

Speed's nice, but accuracy's final.

rxw, that inch per yard rule of thumb is just that. Real world results are influenced by choke, load, temperature, and heaven knows what. Best to try out different loads in YOUR shotgun and go with what patterns tightest.

 

[Smoke]

Any Benelli owners out there within a 2 hour drive of Central Md is welcome to a mano a mano match. Use your Benelli, ammo of choice, and COF. I'll use one of my "Serious" 870s and matching ammo.

I want to play too. BUt I don't have a Benelli and I'm more like 22 hours from MD.

I'd still like to play though......

 

[TechBrute]

And like the Benelli ad says a shooter CAN put 5 shells in the air at once, try that with your "serious" 870.

Of course you can't hit anything at that rate, but at least you've got bragging rights. When I see you standing next to Miculek and Leitham (spelling?) at national 3 gun matches, THEN I'll believe that you can hit something at that rate.

For the record, I own a Benelli, among others.

Oh yeah, plenty of sporters use a 20.

 

[Penforhire]

Nobody is talking about the trigger action. I dearly love my 870 for skeet. But that trigger is too light and short for what I consider in-home "defense" use. It is right in the 1911 category, which I know many people here love for self defense. But I'm deadly enough accurate with my P99's long pull. Anyone make a shotgun with a longer pull?

Also, when the SHTF do you REALLY want to have to remember to rack every round in? That 870 trigger pull may become the loudest click you ever heard.

 

[HS/LD]

I have a simple Winchester Defender 1300 (that's a pump for the unaware), as reliability is a primary concern with a "Home Defense" role in mind.

It's loaded with 6 2 3/4" magnum 00 buckshot and the final (7th) is a Brenneke slug (can't remember why I had the slug as the last round... I am sure I had a good reason though.) Cruiser ready... (chamber empty)

The butt cuff holds another 6, 3 each of buckshot and slugs and the sidesaddle another 6 again.

The ability to pick up in one hand that amount of fire power is the reason I chose a pump gun as my nightstand security device.

20 rounds of 12 gauge in one neat little packet.

Pump vs. Auto. I have one of each both loaded and ready to go I would prefer to grab the pump when it was about saving lives.

HS/LD

 

[Felinx]

Ok I'm fairly new to shotguns so please don't slam me if i say something foolish. I also would like to say I enjoy reading these forums because people engage very nicely in discussions so thanks for reading this

It seems that for the same shooter a pump would be much slower than a semi-auto so speed wise I think a semi-auto wins.

Winner: Semi-auto

Accuracy wise, for the same shooter, I don't see how racking the shotgun makes it more accurate. And this is a shotgun not a rifle so I don't think it differs in semi-auto loading onto the carrier or pump loading onto the carrier.

Winner: Tie (i.e. pump or semi-auto)

Reliability is probably the most ambiguous quality that I can't actually determine a winner. I read a lot of "pumps are more reliable" but usually the reason is "just because it is". Any logical or scientific facts to prove this? I've seen a bunch of pumps go down 870's, mossies you name it (my 870 had a cream de poop Type III jam, had to get the shell out with my key) at a range while the 3 lone semi's had no problem.
If the semi’s were sooo unreliable how come people at the top of Three Gun matches don’t use pumps.

Winner: no clear winner or maybe a Tie

What else is there left? Speed, Reliability, Accuracy. I think I got em all.

To me it seems the semi-auto is the BEST HD gun. Because its faster, the accuracy is the same as a pump, and which is more reliable is up in the air. Any rebunks?

 

[Art Eatman]

Wuz reading an article about scope sights, today. The author commented that if something broke, it usually happened (to him) within the first 30 or forty rounds of shooting. Seems to me that's reasonably probable for the firearms, themselves, but with the caveat that anything can break after protracted use.

You buy your shotgun for home defense. Fine. Test it out with two or three boxes of shells. After that, I'd think that becoming a really good shotgunner would mean having another, similar-action shotgun whose life-saving reliability is unimportant: Claybirds don't shoot back. The home defense gun should be reserved for occasional function-checking, but not "run and run and run".

I dunno. Just a view about a dedicated home defense critter...

Art

 

[Jokerman]

For home defense: a Mossberg Model 500 Cruiser 6-shot 20-gauge w. 18.5" barrel and pistol grip. Federal #4 buckshot. Or you might as well get a bazooka.

 

[sm]

Art makes a good point.

The old model 37 we kept at my dad's place only left the store a few times, at that was with me. I honestly don't think my dad ever fired that gun. I did the pattern testing , chose the loads and such. I inspectd and maintained. He has a 870 and figured I guess he'd be ok. Course I do recall all his medals when he was in the Guard.

I know others whom keep one at the office and practice with another. I in fact have assisted with the buying of two and giving lessons.

 

[Felinx]

quote:
________________________________

Actually, I "threw down the gauntlet" not to demonstrate the superiority of either an 870 or a Benelli, but to show that the critical factor was the shooter, not the tool he or she picks.

Maybe a thread on what makes a good shotgun is due.

As for the original question of what shotgun to get for home defense, my pick MIGHT be an 870 for most folks, or a 20 gauge 1100 for pixies.

Training and experience are more important than brand.
____________________________________

Of course the main factor is the shooter. So lets say a user puts in same amount of training time with a semi-auto and a pump. Accuracy same, speed... not so same.

Watch some experienced 3-gunners clean a plate rack with an auto; a pump just can’t keep up. In IPSC 3-Gun you will hardly ever see a pump used any more, even in tactical matches using an auto has a speed advantage for example when firing from an awkward position. What are you going to do when you only have one hand to use??

Semi-auto is the way to go for HD. Cpt Scarlet

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

Watch some experienced 3-gunners clean a plate rack with an auto; a pump just can’t keep up. In IPSC 3-Gun you will hardly ever see a pump used any more, even in tactical matches using an auto has a speed advantage for example when firing from an awkward position.

have you ever had to fire your auto through a firing port situated such that a wall was an inch away from your ejection port?

the SWAT magazine 3 gun match had a shotgun stage like that not that long ago. EVERY AUTO CHOKED.

the pump guys were able to rotate their gun over so the case cleared the port and the wall before racking the slide.

 

[Felinx]

Good point, no I haven't and I'm glad you brought that up. Next time I find myself in that situation I'll do what the pumps did with my semi, just tilt the gun. I'll rotate my gun over so the case clears the port and the wall... but I won't need to rack the slide

 

[Feanaro]

Pump versus semi is like 45 versus 9mm. I've seen people who could operate a semi so fast it was almost automatic. It all depends on what works for you.

My vote is for the 870. Cheap, effective, reliable. Number one buck, no staggered crap. Just buck.

 

[Felinx]

quote:
--------------------------
Pump versus semi is like 45 versus 9mm. I've seen people who could operate a semi so fast it was almost automatic. It all depends on what works for you.
------------------
First off, good point. No staggered stuff just buck I would agree. No color coordination either, I can't see what is green and red in the dark.

My point is not who can be the fastest and accurate but what makes YOU the fastest and most accurate home defender.

I don't think it is quite like 45 vs 9mm but I think I see what you are trying to get at and I do believe this argument can be different. Sure in the end it all depends on what works for you but what if you started off with a semi-auto. You'd be faster than you would be if you started off with a pump and just as accurate.

BTW Adrew, I just tried what the "semi-auto" users did in the 3 gun match with my pump. 10/10 it choked. I think it is user error more than gun problem.