best shotgun for home defense??

[Feanaro]

I like pumps. I have never liked semi-auto shotguns. They don't feel right. It isn't quite 45 vs 9mm but it's the same princible: taste. I feel confident that I could rack my semi fast enough to take on a gang. Some people might not. So get an auto.

I'm sure you would be faster with your semi. But I can never do as well with an auto as I can with a pump.

 

[Felinx]

Yah, I won't argue with that. If you just don't like semi's then I wouldn't force it on you. I would totally agree to go with what you are best at. Personally I hope I never have to use my shotgun for home defense (i hope that situation never happens). But I want to continue since I think it is fun to hear different opinions on the "Best Shotgun for Home defense"

I'll speed this thread up and flip my argument of speed right on me and say well "hey, when are you going to need the fast cyclic rate of a semi-auto in a home defense situation anyway". Answer (i don't know for sure) would most likely be never. So now people might say well then since speed doesn't matter (semi's greatest advantage) accuracy is about the same then both semi and pump are the same in HD. ALMOST a taste issue... But not quite yet.

Andew brought up a point, awkward positions. What if you've only got one arm to use. What if something obstructed you from pumping like a spouse or child clinging on to you out of fear. Another advantage of a semi in HD, you don't need to pump.

 

[Feanaro]

Can't argue with that. But frankly if I can't use both hands then the shotgun is going to be hard to use, pump or semi.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Felinx, after 40 years of using 870s,I cannot recall ever forgetting to pump.At some point in the learning curve, it becomes second nature.

As for all the autos in "Practical" competition, it ain't practical any more. Look at the handguns.
Same deal.

The idea of maintaining a HD shotgun and not shooting a lot while shooting a similar one is good. I originally bought my second 870 and set it up for "Serious" and slug work for that purpose. It's shot often,the HD one is shot a bit every year but not extensively.

This may be more critical on shotguns other than the 870,which comes very close to mechanical immortality.

 

[WVleo]

Hi, Nothing seems to scare the crap out of all things living more than racking the slide on my 20ga.870 rem with a 20" barrel loaded with Win. 3buck orWinSupremeXXMag 5 shot. Better than a warning shot !!! WVleo

 

[riverdog]

Back on topic

I'm with Dave on this. I have one 870 which is set-up for HD and another that I use for Clay games (along with an O/U). The first time out shooting Skeet I did forget to pump, it was a bad habit from Trap where time wasn't critical. Once I got past that, I haven't forgotten to pump since.

One of the more important attributes of the Rem 870 is overall cost. You can afford to buy more than one and have them set up for different functions. Clay games will get you much more proficient using a shotgun than you might think.

Buy two 870's (both for about $500) and take them both out to shoot Skeet. Afterward, take the smoothest of the two and make that your HD shotgun. Keep shooting the second one at Skeet and Trap for proficiency training.

Just a random thought, my opinion and all that.

 

[Felinx]

I don't think I ever mentioned about forgetting to rack a shotgun, if I did I would take that back. I would think that if you are going to use your pump for home defense that not forgetting to rack it won't even be a factor. Maybe you got that idea when I mentioned the situations that may occur that inhibit your ability to pump the shotgun.

What about home defense. I still think the semi-auto is leading the way. If it really doesn't matter which one to use lets prove it.

What do you mean by "practical" shooting. Do you mean trap shooting? and if you wanted something with "slug work" there is no shotgun out there that was better built for "selecting a slug" in the middle of shooting than a M1 Super90. Just look at the manual of arms. In order for you to select a slug you just rack the bolt handle back and insert one onto the carrier. Thats fast and smooth. Can't do that on any other gun that I know of.

 

[riverdog]

With an 870 you just put a slug in the magazine and pump as usual. It might just be faster the the M1 Super90 MOA

Trap shooting is not practical ... just practice.

 

[Duke of Lawnchair]

With an 870 you just put a slug in the magazine and pump as usual. It might just be faster the the M1 Super90 MOA

Right on. I didn't know that we could do that with topped-off magazine tubes!

 

[Felinx]

With a topped off magazine tube and one in the chamber.

To select slug on a pump you gotta rack (thats one) to eject a good round (thats one) then stick one slug into the mag tube. Then rack again (you lose another good round and another rack) and now you are ready to fire. fire

Expended rounds : 2 + 1 slug so you are now 3 rounds down from a fully loaded shotty.

Racks: 2

For a M1 Supa 90.

Rack once (thats one) and eject a shell (that one good round) then select slug and load directly into the magazine from the ejection port. Youre now ready to fire. Fire

Expended rounds: 1 + 1 slug you are now 2 rounds down.
Racks : 1

You can't beat it. You're up more rounds in your shotty and it takes one less "rack" to get it going. Now THAT is a tactical advantage. (yuck you made me use the word tactical )

Also, the key to a shotgun winning a pistol fight is to ALWAYS keep it fully loaded. You shoot one round you load one round.

.................
Would be the end of me post if I were like most people trying to put up a fog of My shotty is better than yours. But my point of contiuing to post on this thread is for the new guy who doesn't know what to look for.

Now in a HD scenario I keep mine cruiser ready. I have a choice as soon as I sense danger to rack and then load one. Or...

Not fully loaded shotgun:
Pump: load slug in the tube rack and you are there.
1 spent shell
1 rack

M1Super90: rack, load one in the magazine you're there. Or do the same as the pump BUT, you need to hit the carrier release so the slug gets loaded onto the carrier.

1 spent shell
1 rack

however!! When you load into the magazine (M1S90)you have to slide the charging bolt back and load it. Now if that action is faster or slower than the action of loading one in the tube for a pump I don't know. It might be equal but anyone out there with a M1S90 want to get some input on this.


Basically with a non-fully loaded shotgun Pump vs M1S90 selecting a slug may be equal speed.
As for pump vs all other semi's the amount of work is the same.

At least I'm fair and objective aye?

Feanaro: You're right it would be hard both with both semi and pump . In fact if you don't train for that scenario you might be stuff out of luck if you have a semi or a pump. That can't be denied. But I have tried shooting one handed with my semi and I can get off all my rounds on target. Not the same speed as with two hands but with more ease than a pump.

 

[riverdog]

This discussion started as:

there is no shotgun out there that was better built for "selecting a slug" in the middle of shooting than a M1 Super90.

No mention of full magazines. In fact "in the middle of shooting' to me means the magazine isn't full. Load management is an issue in practical shooting and as Dave said earlier,

critical factor was the shooter, not the tool he or she picks

I'll stick with the Rem 870 thankyouverymuch; the MOA is simpler and that's a good thing in a combat weapon.

 

[Felinx]

No mention of full magazines. In fact "in the middle of shooting' to me means the magazine isn't full. Load management is an issue in practical shooting and as Dave said earlier,

Yup, so I addressed the non-fully loaded shotgun. I guess I shouldn't have said "there is no shotgun better made for selecting a slug" because it doesn't matter if the gun is not fully loaded. But... if it were the M1S90 is better. 1 tie, 1 win for the M1S90. (in terms of the select slug stuff)

the MOA is simpler and that's a good thing in a combat weapon.

Lot of these types of responses, could you elaborate on how and why you think the MOA is much simpler and compared to what? Hey look you could be right and I think it would help the new people learn more about what to look for. If you would just explain.

I'll stick with the Rem 870 thankyouverymuch;

I love it youaresoverywelcome

 

[Feanaro]

If you need a slug then the person you are shooting is probably a long way off. Because otherwise there is no point in using a slug. Thus the minimal time you save with a Super 90 isn't that useful. If it were at close/medium range it would matter. But a slug is of no use there.

And if you are shooting at long range with buck/bird in the gun then perhaps you didn't load it correctly?

It is an advantage. But an important one?

 

[Felinx]

Feanaro:

It is an advantage. But an important one?

Good! Good! Personally I think NO. Its not an imporant advantage. Home defense situation, you are in your house and unless you are Bill Gates the longest hallway may only be 20 yrds and i you are in a apartment maybe 10~15. You're right, why use a slug??? Its better to use 00Buck in that range ( Thats the way I feel at least. maybe I'm wrong). Thats why I believe no staggard stuff like you suggested earlier.

Oh, but one thing that just popped in my head though. What if (and this is really unfortunate) you have a hostage situation in your house. Might you select slug then? I actually don't know what I would do. In that situation I would be more comfortable with a handgun but if all I had was a shotgun I'd have to go slug.

Any disadvantages in using a semi-auto in home defense. I'll try to think of some and maybe post.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Sigh....

Back in the day, Felinx,I often shot side by side with buddies shooting A-5s, 11-48s, an 1100 or two. I found that a good pumpgunner with an 870, 12 or 37 could regularly get a second or third shot off faster than an auto owner.

Once again, a good shotgunner is a good shotgunner. The deciding factor is expertise.

Our young friend HS/LD took the mantra of BA/UU/R seriously. He reports something like 15K rounds in the last 6 months.

Corriea does 3 gun, wins, and uses a pump.

HSmith and PJR are high volume shooters.

Will Fennell is good enough he went to the FITASC World Cup competition and placed nicely. There's no tougher game than FITASC.

Even your kindly, grey haired old Moderator has been known to go through 1K of loads in a month or so.

And riverdog has the makings.

I'd wager the usual flagon of mead that give any of the above ANY good shotgun(Including Benellis, which I regard as darn good, just overpriced) and some ammo, a shooting lesson of high quality and value would be shortly forthcoming.

And while some of the above have shown scant interest in "Serious" shooting, I believe that if H, Will or Paul were using a pump for a rapid COF on tombstones, silohuettes or steel, the course would be cleaned in a very small increment of time.

The key to expertise is shooting. All a shotgun is is a device to direct a cloud or clouds of shot to a given place at a given time and to do so comfortably. ONLY shooting will make that happen and extensive shooting is the way to make it happen consistently.

Grab your Benelli and shoot it at clays, plates, landfill rats, or tin cans. Shoot it until it feels like a body part and you're deadly with it. Then go borrow a Big Four pump and shoot that. Note that you're still deadly.

There's a lesson there...

 

[Felinx]

Thanks for you post as always. I don't see why you sigh, I guess I'm comming off as "SEMI AUTOS RULE!!" type ignorant person. is that it? The topic came up, Best Shotgun for Home Defense and I wanted to see a lot of pro's and cons so I can learn from them, maybe other people too. I think there is a difference in putting down pros and cons as opposed to saying "my shotty is better or what not". If I come off in a bad way I'm sorry that is not my intention.

Our young friend HS/LD took the mantra of BA/UU/R seriously. He reports something like 15K rounds in the last 6 months. Corriea does 3 gun, wins, and uses a pump.

HSmith and PJR are high volume shooters.

Will Fennell is good enough he went to the FITASC World Cup competition and placed nicely. There's no tougher game than FITASC.

Maybe some comments from these people as to why they choose a pump vs a semi-auto or else it is just Argumentum ad verecundiam

Once again, a good shotgunner is a good shotgunner. The deciding factor is expertise.

Woudn't disagree with that.

I don't know if you have read all of the posts but I think I basically said that Speed and accuracy can be viewed as same in a HD situation between a semi and a pump. From your response it seems like I didn’t get that across. My word smithing ain't so good.

1) Accuracy would be the same

2) Speed, you probably don't need the high cyclic rate anyway.

3) Slug selection, probably don't need it in a HD situation. But it could happen.

4) Ackward positions: One hand disabled the semi has an advantage. Something obstructing you from using your off hand.

Reply to the opinions like Feanaro and riverdog not to what you think I am trying to say. You sound like you are giving a lesson to someone that says "semi-auto's are the way to go. Why, well just because they are fast". I'm not, I think I have been pretty objective.

I'm sure you would be faster with your semi. But I can never do as well with an auto as I can with a pump

I can't argue with that, thats when you know what you have works for you. I'm sure there alot of people that are faster than me with a pump.

There's a lesson there...

Yah, I stand alone.

 

[riverdog]

The thread has degraded ...

... to one of equipment on the Practical game courses rather than a discussion of HD shotguns. I know of few applications for slugs in HD. When I need a slug I'll select a rifle and do it right.

I'm sure the Benelli is a good gun, but I've seen too many auto's fail to extract due to light loads and I've yet to have a feed or extraction malfunction with an 870. The trick with making an 870 reliable is to rack it as hard as you can. Being gentle will induce a problem.

Maybe the M1 S90 has no problem switching between varying loads and still functioning, but I know that my 870 HD gun can switch from slugs to target loads to 3" field loads without me selecting anything. Put any 2 3/4" or 3" fodder in the magazine and the gun will function just fine because it isn't load sensitive at all and always functions the same. Since I never top off the magazine, putting a Sabot next in line is never an issue. .. ahh, but that really isn't an issue with HD is it.

For HD I use 2 3/4" 00 Buck as my primary load with more 00 Buck backing it up. For HD, I don't worry about which round is next or load management in general, they're all the same.

 

[Felinx]

Maybe the M1 S90 has no problem switching between varying loads and still functioning, but I know that my 870 HD gun can switch from slugs to target loads to 3" field loads without me slecting anything.

What do you mean by "without me selecting anything". You have to select a round. What else would you "select" on a shotgun.

Yes I agree lets stick to HD posts. I am guilty of bringing 3 giun competion up in one of my posts, but that is before I had to argue with myself about the need for speed in HD. But I'd still like to know what you meant. Thanks.

 

[dav]

How about *fun* factor

I realize this is an H/D thread, but this is still relevant.

It has been mentioned that the shotgun you practice with is the one that works best. So, to me, anything about a shotgun that increases my desire to practice will increase the value (to me) of that shotgun.

And here I come down on the pump side. Autos tend to make me concentrate on rapid fire. Pump allows me to think about every step of what I am doing while practicing. Mount shotgun, point (aim?), fire... think about what just happened. Did the shot go where I wanted? Did I flinch? Am I still on target?

All good, rack (what a wonderful sound a pump makes!) and do again.

Again, strictly personal, but I have a blast doing this. An auto would definitely work as well, and be lots faster. But for me, this isn't about speed, its about enjoyment and practice.

 

[tobeat1]

I like semis. I like pumps. I just happen to like semis better. To me this is almost a revolver vs semi debate. I think a decent semi with a modicum of TLC will be just as reliable as a pump. You dont have to worry about pumping the blasted thing. With a pump you have to have two working arms to pump it effectively. With a semi one hand can be free to open doors, dial 911, carry a child or worst case you can still fight with only hand. Slug selection may not be important to you. "I will get a rifle and do it right"-- What if you dont have a rifle? At any rate I think we are all more or less on the same page- the shooter- not the tool will dictate the outcome. But semis are better

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

BTW Adrew, I just tried what the "semi-auto" users did in the 3 gun match with my pump. 10/10 it choked. I think it is user error more than gun problem

the advantage of the pump is you can pick when to eject the round.

when i tested the stage, I fired the gun, rotated it so the port pointed down, moved the slide to the rear, rotated the gun back up into firing position and moved the slide forward.


no lost rounds, and no stovepipes.


as for select slug from a full gun, that's something i'm probably never going to have to deal with, since my HD gun only has a five round buttcuff and is stored empty, and i'm reasonably proficient at doing a select slug just using the ejection port and bypassing the magazine.

if you want to get right down to it, a benelli nova would be the best thing to have if you were going to select slug a lot (it has the handy magazine cutoff button)

 

[Felinx]

the advantage of the pump is you can pick when to eject the round.

I like that point.

and i'm reasonably proficient at doing a select slug just using the ejection port and bypassing the magazine.

When I choose to select a slug I have to load it in the tube and then rack it so the one shell in the chamber gets ejected then the slug gets loaded on the carrier and then I slide it foward and Im ready to shoot.

Your way sounds interesting. How do you bypass the magazine and load a slug in the ejection port when you have 1 rnd in the chamber and 1 in the tube (magazine).

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

i hit the bolt release, open the slide about 3/4, which starts kicking out the round. i flick it out of the ejection port and toss the slug in the now vacated port.

i then move the slide all the way forward.

 

[Felinx]

Ok thanks.

 

[HS/LD]

You guys are forgetting the fridge!
Don't forget about the refrigerator!
I keep a few slugs handy in case the bad guy decides to tip over my refrigerator (like in the movies) and hide behind it.

Slugs will go straight through the fridge...

I have two Shotguns a semi Mossberg 5500 something or other (not the best semi auto SG I am sure, I bought it from a guy in a shoe store before I could legally buy guns in the USofA. $150 and he made me break it down and take it out of the shoe store in a brown paper bag) and a well used super duper Winchester Defender 1300 Special Edition.

Debating the difference in speed between pump gun and a semi is ridiculous when the scenario is Home Defense. For many reasons... the most important being that the cyclic rate of fire of a shotgun is not the feature of a shotgun that makes it valuable as a defensive arm. You want speed, you should be looking at something other than a shotgun, hint Heckler & Koch make them, and they are only about $12,000 more. Additionally the maximum speed of the pump is determined by the max speed of the operator whereas the max speed of a semi is mechanically limited. Also, you are either an idiot or ignorant if you perceive a "tactical" advantage with a SHOTGUN on having 5 empties in the air as opposed to 3 or 4.

Selecting a slug is easy with either a semi or a pump.... another debate that is much ado about nothing. In order to understand this one must shoot both a semi and a pump and try the drill. In either case the sequence is something like - fiddle - click - click bang. What is important is actually hitting the target with the oh so dearly needed slug. I can easily load a slug through the ejection port of my Defender while the tube is full. Methinks someone has not taken the time to play with a pump gun....

Selecting a slug for a head shot hostage situation in your house? Two options here. Watch the combat shotgun video by Louis Awerbuck or a quick trip to Colorado and you can see successful head shots taken with buck shot on moving hostage targets at home defense ranges.

In the last six months I have put over 15,000 shells through my Winchester Defender. ZERO mechanical failures 0/15,000. Additionally the PUMP is actually FASTER than is NEEDED to assist any crack addicts, that have infiltrated your cave, to meet God .

Throwing clay targets in the air, Tom Knapp with a semi, can hit 9. With a pump he can get 8. Seems to me he just needs to stop being so lazy and practice a little more with the pump gun.

Pump vs.Semi... 0.005 of a sec... and extra movement of the bolt...
Give me a break!

Regards,
HS/LD