Omaney
Member
Grimjaw:
That is the finest looking SKS i've ever seen. Details please!!
That is the finest looking SKS i've ever seen. Details please!!
Best SHTF rifle/carbine on a BUDGET
- Thread starter Commander Guineapig
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TCB in TN
Member
I would not argue with either a SKS, Saiga, or AK. For the money they are all excellent choice, that said I would also put forth a little different idea. Find an old 870 remmy or Mossy 500 with an 18 in barrel for 150 to 200, and then put down another 150 on a decent slug barrel with scope that you can switch to and you will have a "rifle" that can get you to about the same accuracy as your SKS out to around 100m plus the flexibiliy to shoot buckshot for shorter ranges. In the mythical "knock down" power debates, very little trumps the good ole punkin ball within 50 yards. And with the wide range of stuff available you can put together pretty much any configuration that you want.
Omaney, I don't want to muddy this thread, if you want some info, PM me. The rifle has a new owner now.
I figure a weaponlight of some kind can be added to an SKS without much fuss. Maybe on one of those Tapco stocks (which I do not like, but there you go).
jm
I figure a weaponlight of some kind can be added to an SKS without much fuss. Maybe on one of those Tapco stocks (which I do not like, but there you go).
jm
sixgunner455
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- Joined
- Aug 25, 2006
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- 3,052
Yugo SKS was 179.00 when I bought it. They go for 259.00 from the same shop now, so I guess I made money buying it then. I had a Mosin M44, but hated shooting it. Paid 50.00 for it, got 100.00 when I sold it. The SKS is much better. But it's not very accurate. I guess I got spoiled by .22s and M16s, but I expect my rifle to be accurate. Accurate enough to hit the 150m gong once or twice per mag, but that's not very impressive.
Next, I got a K31. Wonderful, accurate gun. But ammo is very expensive compared to 7.62x39mm or 5.56mm. Hits whatever I aim it at, and that 150m gong rings loud and swings forever.
So I had two long, heavy rifles, and really wanted a carbine. Thought about getting a KelTec Sub9 with the Glock grip, so I could use some of those long stick magazines -- 33 rounds or something. Thought about getting a Marlin 1894C in .357, and still might someday. Didn't get anything for a couple of years, but then came into 700.00 that I had to spend on myself (cumulative amount from gifts for graduation from a MA program, and I was forbidden to spend it on anything but a "formal gift" for myself) and decided to get a carbine with it.
Well, that's when I started shopping for an AR. I ended up building one, and having enough money left over to buy a little ammo. So now I have three rifles that I like well enough to just keep around long term, and any of them would do fine as an emergency defensive tool with some range and power. And I've figured out how to shoot the AR with my Surefire w/o having a light mount on the thing. Since I made it as light as I could w/o using a plastic lower, I don't really want to add any weight to it at all. So the flashlight can go in the pocket unless I actually need to use it.
I had a Mosin M44, but hated shooting it. Paid 50.00 for it, got 100.00 when I sold it. The SKS is much better. But it's not very accurate. I guess I got spoiled by .22s and M16s, but I expect my rifle to be accurate. Accurate enough to hit the 150m gong once or twice per mag, but that's not very impressive.Next, I got a K31. Wonderful, accurate gun. But ammo is very expensive compared to 7.62x39mm or 5.56mm. Hits whatever I aim it at, and that 150m gong rings loud and swings forever.
So I had two long, heavy rifles, and really wanted a carbine. Thought about getting a KelTec Sub9 with the Glock grip, so I could use some of those long stick magazines -- 33 rounds or something. Thought about getting a Marlin 1894C in .357, and still might someday. Didn't get anything for a couple of years, but then came into 700.00 that I had to spend on myself (cumulative amount from gifts for graduation from a MA program, and I was forbidden to spend it on anything but a "formal gift" for myself) and decided to get a carbine with it.
Well, that's when I started shopping for an AR. I ended up building one, and having enough money left over to buy a little ammo. So now I have three rifles that I like well enough to just keep around long term, and any of them would do fine as an emergency defensive tool with some range and power. And I've figured out how to shoot the AR with my Surefire w/o having a light mount on the thing. Since I made it as light as I could w/o using a plastic lower, I don't really want to add any weight to it at all. So the flashlight can go in the pocket unless I actually need to use it.
This with a M4A3 Style Upper
(Gas system is based on the one the AK47/FAL use)
http://bushmaster.com/catalog_xm15_BCWA3F16M4-GP.asp
Seen them as low as $850 new before
(Gas system is based on the one the AK47/FAL use)
http://bushmaster.com/catalog_xm15_BCWA3F16M4-GP.asp
Seen them as low as $850 new before
Commander Guineapig
Member
seems to fall to either the AK or the SKS..
I admit I like them both, but the thought of my wife trying
to load a stripper clip isn't a great one.
In terms of the cartridges themselves, they are both the same
caliber, 7.26X39, AKA 7.62 Russian? (At least most of the time they are
that same caliber?)
Thanks!
GP
I admit I like them both, but the thought of my wife trying
to load a stripper clip isn't a great one.
In terms of the cartridges themselves, they are both the same
caliber, 7.26X39, AKA 7.62 Russian? (At least most of the time they are
that same caliber?)
Thanks!
GP
AK's and SKS's for the most part use the same round. There are AK variants that are calibered in 5.45x39 and .223. And if you get into Saiga AKs, you have .308 (7.62x51), .223, 7.62x39, 12 gauge, 20 gauge, and .410.
But for the basic AK-47 style rifle and SKS, they share a common caliber.
But it would be a mistake to call 7.62x39 as 7.62 Russian. That could also apply to 7.62x54 Rimmed-- which is a full-sized caliber with similar power and ballistics to 30-06 Springfield. This caliber is often found in Mosin Nagants and the Dragunov (and it's clone-ish) rifles.
-- John
rangerruck
Member
Saiga, end of discussion.
Anarchocapitalist
Member
I have to agree with ernunnos. A true budget SHTF rifle would be a lever action in .357, .44, or 30-30. The chances of a real EOTWAWKI secenario are quite slim to almost zero. Most engagements will be at 100 yards or less in some Katrina-like scenario. Any of the three calibers will be fairly common to find should you need to, and very effective at those ranges on most two and four legged creatures. Levers also have the advantage of being fairly inconspicuous compared to EBRs and AKs.
If I could only have one rifle, it would be a .357 lever.
All that being said, like it was previously posted here, there are many other things besides weapons choice if you want to be prepared for some level of emergency. Adequate food and water supplies, gasoline and power, shelter and/or evac plans are much more important than spending $x on weapons and ammo. More people dropped dead on Houston highways because of dehydration in traffic jams trying to flee from Hurricane Rita than anything else.
If I could only have one rifle, it would be a .357 lever.
All that being said, like it was previously posted here, there are many other things besides weapons choice if you want to be prepared for some level of emergency. Adequate food and water supplies, gasoline and power, shelter and/or evac plans are much more important than spending $x on weapons and ammo. More people dropped dead on Houston highways because of dehydration in traffic jams trying to flee from Hurricane Rita than anything else.
LaibYechiel
Member
Why a rifle when you can get a pistol in a rifle caliber? At the ranges you would be looking at (typically 50 - 100 feet max) why not consider a Kel-Tec PLR-16. A bare bones model could be had for approx $500 or with a fore end hand guard, single point sling, flash suppressor/compensator, and cheap red dot sight for about $700. Not bad for a .223 weapon system. Works for me, plus it's fun to shoot. Of course, YMMV.
Peace and blessings,
Laib Yechiel (rabbilar)
Peace and blessings,
Laib Yechiel (rabbilar)
chemist308
Member
SKS. Now, you have money left over. So, add Tapco stock a top rail and maybe a holographic sight or 0 mag red dot scope... I won't address the TAPCO magazines because I haven't tried them--yet. But some say they work well, others say no detachable works. The best part is, you still have money left over for ammo and a couple common wear parts...
Something that some people have pointed out is that you aren't likely to need to shoot over a hundred yards in any type of defensive scenario. They do have a point.
One thing that a rifle or shotgun has over a handgun is that it is much more accurate even at 50 yards than a handgun. On my best day with a 9mm I might be able to keep a magazine full in the 8 ring (but I am out of practice) at 50 yards.
But with about any rifle, even one that I haven't shot in a long time or before at all, I can place my shots way better. Add in just a little fairly regular practice and being able to hit a pop can at 100 yards on the first shot isn't a stretch at all. It is true that some can shoot a handgun that well but I haven't ever been one of them.
I wouldn't want to be without a good handgun, preferably two (one for really concealed stuff and a mid-size or full size for carry when you can conceal it or to stick in a pack. Bigger is easier to shoot well), but a rifle can just do things that a handgun can't.
Even with a shotgun and slugs I can place them way better at just about all ranges to 100 yards than I can with a handgun, and I only have a plain bead on my shotgun.
Put it this way - suppose the power has been out for a week. Help is no longer just a phone call away and you have noticed a hungry animal acting suspicious around your home the last couple days. You decide it would be more prudent to just make sure of your backstop and then make sure that the animal doesn't infect you or your neighbors with anything. You get a clear 50 yard shot at it.
What do you want to shoot at it with - handgun, shotgun, or rifle?
I'n that scenario, your scoped AR, 30-30, or Mosin M-38 doesn't sound like such a bad idea, does it?
So it doesn't take concrete or an engine block or sniping at gangbangers in a sandbag bunker to make a more accurate and more powerful weapon worth having around.
One thing that a rifle or shotgun has over a handgun is that it is much more accurate even at 50 yards than a handgun. On my best day with a 9mm I might be able to keep a magazine full in the 8 ring (but I am out of practice) at 50 yards.
But with about any rifle, even one that I haven't shot in a long time or before at all, I can place my shots way better. Add in just a little fairly regular practice and being able to hit a pop can at 100 yards on the first shot isn't a stretch at all. It is true that some can shoot a handgun that well but I haven't ever been one of them.
I wouldn't want to be without a good handgun, preferably two (one for really concealed stuff and a mid-size or full size for carry when you can conceal it or to stick in a pack. Bigger is easier to shoot well), but a rifle can just do things that a handgun can't.
Even with a shotgun and slugs I can place them way better at just about all ranges to 100 yards than I can with a handgun, and I only have a plain bead on my shotgun.
Put it this way - suppose the power has been out for a week. Help is no longer just a phone call away and you have noticed a hungry animal acting suspicious around your home the last couple days. You decide it would be more prudent to just make sure of your backstop and then make sure that the animal doesn't infect you or your neighbors with anything. You get a clear 50 yard shot at it.
What do you want to shoot at it with - handgun, shotgun, or rifle?
I'n that scenario, your scoped AR, 30-30, or Mosin M-38 doesn't sound like such a bad idea, does it?
So it doesn't take concrete or an engine block or sniping at gangbangers in a sandbag bunker to make a more accurate and more powerful weapon worth having around.
Commander Guineapig
Member
thank you sir!
Still lovin the info and opinions on here...it's great to get so many points
of view! I think I need to check out a few pawnshops..
GP
Part of the reason I want a rifle is for the increased wounding potential and increased accuracy/ease of getting hits. When you take away most of the barrel alot of reason #1 goes with it. When you take away the stock most of #2 goes with it. There's a reason groups like swat teams are using ar15s and not ar15 pistols.
If you only have $700 I don't think you can get an ar15 though, remember to leave plenty of budget for practice and ammo.
+1. I've done some pest hunting in very low light and if it's too dark to see your sights or your crosshairs, it's also often too dark to see your target and when you light up your sights you find that the glare of the sights makes the target invisible.
One other thing to remember is that military rifles have big hoods and wings around the sights for a reason and it's not just to protect the sight. In very low light you might not be able to see the front sight post, but you usually can still see the front sight tower. Just center the whole thing on your target and you'll be good enough to hit a torso out to 50 meters.
LaibYechiel
Member
Soybomb; with all due respect, 'plr' stands for 'pistol long range'. Let's also not forget that hung on your shoulder with a single point sling it is concealable under a coat (for those with a CWL). For additional info on plr-16 capabilities, you may want to check out ktog.org
And, of course although you may disagree, I believe that in most senarios, it is unlikely that shots will be necessary much beyond 100 feet at most (see Katrina or the L.A. Riots).
Peace and blessings,
Laib Yechiel (rabbilar)
And, of course although you may disagree, I believe that in most senarios, it is unlikely that shots will be necessary much beyond 100 feet at most (see Katrina or the L.A. Riots).
Peace and blessings,
Laib Yechiel (rabbilar)
Guys....
I think it would be an excellent idea that posters offering advice on "SHTF" should disclose thier location in terms of geographical region and urbanization.
TOO, TOO many people give advice based solely on their own set of circumstances. That's fine. I write from my own situation-- because I have no basis for writing based on other's realities. I went through MY SHTF scenerio. Your's may well be a VERY different thing.
But the problem comes in where we give our advice, thoughts, etc. as if ours is a "catch-all, Do-it-this-way-and-you'll-be-fine" suggestion.
A guy living in an apartment with neighbors in every direction already has a very different reality from a guy that lives in on a rural homestead with no neighbors within miles.
I've lived half my life on the former situation, and the other half in the latter. I KNOW that those realities are different.
It's probably a good idea that we really start making a few disclaimers.
-- John
I think it would be an excellent idea that posters offering advice on "SHTF" should disclose thier location in terms of geographical region and urbanization.
TOO, TOO many people give advice based solely on their own set of circumstances. That's fine. I write from my own situation-- because I have no basis for writing based on other's realities. I went through MY SHTF scenerio. Your's may well be a VERY different thing.
But the problem comes in where we give our advice, thoughts, etc. as if ours is a "catch-all, Do-it-this-way-and-you'll-be-fine" suggestion.
A guy living in an apartment with neighbors in every direction already has a very different reality from a guy that lives in on a rural homestead with no neighbors within miles.
I've lived half my life on the former situation, and the other half in the latter. I KNOW that those realities are different.
It's probably a good idea that we really start making a few disclaimers.
-- John
Commander Guineapig
Member
<---- Guy living in an Apartment with neighbors in every direction.
So my idea of SHTF is something along the lines of NOT staying in said apartment, but running for my spot I got picked out in the mountains...which, fortunately there are a lot of in CO. Use of said SHTF rifle would be to ensure passage to the spot in the mountains. I already have my Glock for "shoot-a-bad-guy-in-the-middle-of-the-night" scenario...so I have been looking at a rifle more. After all, who wants to mess with someone holding a big black AK, or modded SKS with a 30 round clip?
still loving the answers by the way...good points by all.
I think I need to pay attention to the ammo situation too. (what's it shoot, and how cheap is it to feed it while familiarizing oneself with the rifle? kind of thoughts.)
GP
So my idea of SHTF is something along the lines of NOT staying in said apartment, but running for my spot I got picked out in the mountains...which, fortunately there are a lot of in CO.
Use of said SHTF rifle would be to ensure passage to the spot in the mountains. I already have my Glock for "shoot-a-bad-guy-in-the-middle-of-the-night" scenario...so I have been looking at a rifle more. After all, who wants to mess with someone holding a big black AK, or modded SKS with a 30 round clip? still loving the answers by the way...good points by all.
I think I need to pay attention to the ammo situation too. (what's it shoot, and how cheap is it to feed it while familiarizing oneself with the rifle? kind of thoughts.)
GP
Well I hate to echo what everyone else has said, but so far they've given you some pretty good suggestions.
From least to most expensive my picks would go something like this.
Make sure that you have money to buy several thousand rounds of ammo on top on your firearm purchase.
A rifle without ammo is a very poor club and/or a very poor spear.
From least to most expensive my picks would go something like this.
- SKS (Probably Yugo or Chinese)
- Saiga AK
- Romanian AK
- Cheap AR-15 build
Make sure that you have money to buy several thousand rounds of ammo on top on your firearm purchase.
A rifle without ammo is a very poor club and/or a very poor spear.
Deer Hunter
Member
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2005
- Messages
- 4,097
JW,
If I had to go into battle with only 20 shots, I'd pick a Mosin. It makes a fine gun, pike, javalin, club, and tent-stake!
If I had to go into battle with only 20 shots, I'd pick a Mosin. It makes a fine gun, pike, javalin, club, and tent-stake!
NCLivingBrit
Member
Also bridge, litter pole (two of course needed), battering ram and a marker for when you fall in defense of the Motherland.
The King of Pants
Member
- Joined
- May 12, 2007
- Messages
- 82
In the last month I've picked up a Norinco SKS, 500 rounds of Barnul Soft-Point, and 100 strippers for $301 including all shipping and taxes, I figure if I grab a good sling, a chest rig and a ScoutScope mount with a NCstar (or similar) optic, I'll be at roughly $417, $450 If I grab a Firing pin kit. $450 for a battle ready semi-auto that can own a ~200 meter radius. I feel pretty good about that purchase should S hit the F.
arthurcw
Member
Don't forget Tank Tread Lever and Tomato Spike.
I have to agree with JW. There is no one size fits all SHTF/Natural Disaster plan. That goes for guns as well as other preps. Sadly, it’s not a “Do this and you’ll have the answer” math problem. It’s more of a competition. You against Murphy.
You draws your plans. You preps your team. You washes your uniforms. And YOU takes your chances with no guarantees. There is no warranty either expressed or implied and no returns or exchanges are allowed.
When Murphy descends, he brings his friends and relatives. Your plans, preps, guns, butter, and wheelbarrows are all for naught if YOU are not prepared.
Things don’t make you safe. Knowledge of yourself and your situation gives you a better chance against Murphy. Once you have that, everything else it a tool.
I think that’s why this gets so personal. There is no right answer and WE KNOW IT. We really want someone else to validate what we are saying. It gets even better for us if someone with the T-shirt gives us a “thumbs up”.
That said. For me and my situation I’ll worship at the alter of JW. I’m in Houston and it’s gonna be a hurricane followed by DAYS/WEEKS of self reliance. So I’m going with my normal CCW’s and my HD long guns.
If it escalates to riots, I’ve got the HD carbines.
On the off chance I have to leave, it’ll be the same guns on me as always and the carbines under a towel or newspaper in the car. Yes I know it’s legal to have a long gun in the open in Texas, but why draw unneeded attention.
Did I mention I have ammo??? I really think that is what makes a gun a SHTF gun. So whatever you pick, have the ammo to feed it and bingo, that's your SHTF gun.
If the standing water mixes with the refinery waste causing the dead to reanimate as rampaging hordes of U.N. controlled Zombies… I guess I may need some more prep for that.
Given all this: If you want a dedicated SHTF rifle, I'll say SKS + ammo + cleaning materials.
My $.02
Nope, not yet.
I own or have owned just about every other kind of surplus rifle out there, but I've never had one of those. At $69 a pop I guess it would probably be a good idea to get one or two while they're so cheap, but I haven't gotten around to it.
I'd hate to throw even a sixtynine dollar rifle at someone as a spear or use it as a tent stake though.
I just figure that most people would run when they saw that bayonet.
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