BG and baby killed in crossfire (merged threads)

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"It's the SWAT team's job to diffuse these types of situations without killing innocent bystanders, especially children. If you have someone being used as a shield, you need to pick another option. That's my opinion."

Which was precisely the tactic, wait for SWAT, employed at Columbine, to everyone's chagrin.

These are highly fluid, rapidly changing situations in which the "best" option is typically really the "least worst" option. I'm not gonna literally monday-morning quarterback something like this based on a short media account.

Bad things happen no matter how hard they are avoided. All prayers get answered, but sometimes the answer is no.
 
The 300-round comment came from the mother of the child. I doubt very much that she was either counting the shots, or picking up the brass to count later.

How can you expect a sniper to get a clean head shot on a guy who (according to the account) runs out of a building shooting indiscriminately? Be realistic. This was a no-win situation for the officers.
 
Sometimes there just is no "Good" option. You get your pick of "Bad," "Worse," and "Truly ?????ty."

You got to play the hand you're dealt the best that you can.
 
I will, as usual, point out where I think the LEO's went wrong. In this instance, The LEO's did nothing wrong. It was a lose, lose situation, the cops did what they had to do.
 
I get the impression that it's not cool to say that shooting at the man holding baby was wrong, so I'll just say that it has to be the worst possible option and not surprisingly it lead to the worst possible outcome.

I'm probably full of shat, but in theory, just in theory (I don't know how I'd feel IRL), but in theory everything humanly possible should be done to preserve the babies life.

On the other hand you don't want to spawn copy-cats, if that would happen. So you can't give them what they want. But on the other hand you can't shoot through a hostage, especially an infant one...
 
On the other hand you don't want to spawn copy-cats, if that would happen. So you can't give them what they want. But on the other hand you can't shoot through a hostage, especially an infant one...
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To be a little bit of a devil's advocate, why not? Whose life is worth more? Two or three police officers or that baby's? I know it is crapy thing to say, but what if it were your family that this guy charged at? What if he was shooting at your wife and kids? Would you let him kill your family in order to save that one child? I guess you could say that police sign up knowing they might die and they might have to die to serve and protect, but that is bullcrap. If I were a cop, I wouldn't sign up to die and leave my kids as bastards and my wife as a widow. If that meant I had to shoot a kid to save more lives, I might have to do it. I might feel like crap the rest of my life too and maybe it would screw man or woman up to no end. This is one that is hard to Monday morning quarterback if you ask me and honestly I am surprised by the respect that our usually anti-LEO members are showing. Wow.

This is a raw deal no matter what. Sometimes life is just tough.
 
Sure, it is a terrible thing that baby had to die. But really, it's not THAT big of a deal. Was the baby an engineer? No. Did the baby just finish high school? No. Did the baby recently buy a house with the money he/she earned as a lawyer!?!?!? NO! So now it doesnt really matter anymore that the baby is dead. We are able to get more babies, but we may not be able to get more grown people who have done good things in society.

Some of you call the criminal a "coward" for using the baby as a shield. I call that "good tactics". Whether it's evil or not, it's still a good strategy.
 
Sure, it is a terrible thing that baby had to die. But really, it's not THAT big of a deal. Was the baby an engineer? No. Did the baby just finish high school? No. Did the baby recently buy a house with the money he/she earned as a lawyer!?!?!? NO! So now it doesnt really matter anymore that the baby is dead. We are able to get more babies, but we may not be able to get more grown people who have done good things in society.
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Are you serious? :fire: Have you no feelings? :mad: Man that's just cold. I don't care whether the kid came from a crack house, it's not the kids fault. What did that kid do to deserve to die? :cuss:





I feel worst for the mother of the child. I'm sure it's hard for the cops to go home to their families knowing they took part in the death of an infant but they will go on with their lives. The cops made a choice based on the situation presented. They did what they had to do to protect themselves and unfortunately the ending was a tragic one. The mother could do nothing but plead and watch, her life will never be the same.
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Agreed, I have a 14 month old at home, I couldn't even imagine how that would make me feel. I mean I am saddened by just reading this story.
 
overall a crap situation.

i once had a similar situation while an officer on duty but no firearm involved.

i had a drunk and aggressive suspect resisting arrest by using his own baby as a human shield.

can't use pepper on an infant you may kill him/her. can't use a taser, can't use a baton, can't use a firearm.

we were lucky. we talked the guy into putting his kid down and arrested him, then he was charged with felony child endangerment.
 
"It's the SWAT team's job to diffuse these types of situations without killing innocent bystanders, especially children. If you have someone being used as a shield, you need to pick another option. That's my opinion."

Which was precisely the tactic, wait for SWAT, employed at Columbine, to everyone's chagrin.

These are highly fluid, rapidly changing situations in which the "best" option is typically really the "least worst" option. I'm not gonna literally monday-morning quarterback something like this based on a short media account.

Bad things happen no matter how hard they are avoided. All prayers get answered, but sometimes the answer is no.
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centac, my comment was in the context of the SWAT team already being there, and it being their jobs to diffuse it.

It wasn't "wait for the SWAT team, that's their job."
 
"It's the SWAT team's job to diffuse these types of situations without killing innocent bystanders, especially children. If you have someone being used as a shield, you need to pick another option. That's my opinion."

Which was precisely the tactic, wait for SWAT, employed at Columbine, to everyone's chagrin.

These are highly fluid, rapidly changing situations in which the "best" option is typically really the "least worst" option. I'm not gonna literally monday-morning quarterback something like this based on a short media account.
Click to expand...
SWAT's mission in life, whole purpose for existence, is for situations just like this. If they can't diffuse the situation with a trained negotiator, they are supposed to contain the situation. Building entry with hostages is supposed to be a last resort, but this was the third time the guy had traded shots with them. If SWAT is on the scene and nobody can make a decision after two exchanges of fire that the next time you get a shot, take him out, these guys are not very good. Indecisiveness can kill more people than napalm, as several parents that lost kids at Columbine could testify. Flak vests and MP5s DON'T, and NEVER WILL make you a SWAT team. You HAVE to be able to shoot, move and communicate.
 
Just curious. I was under the impression that the police usually have a few trained sharpshooters. If they weren't utilized in this situation...when do they ever put those guys to use?

SWAT is one thing, but two elements with MP5's surrounding a guy holding a baby hostage would start making the guy really nervous. I would think that a positioned sharpshooter could be utilized to make a shot that counts at the right time. Maybe they were positioned and there was no possible way to make it happen. I don't know all the details and I'm not an authority figure or expert at this so if I sound stupid, dismiss my comments.

I do, however, recall video footage of a police sharpshooter actually shooting a gun out of the hands of a man holding loosly holding a firearm. He was holding himself hostage (or contemplating suicide) sitting in a lawn chair. The video was ages ago.
 
As heartless as it may be, I'm going to agree with Kal. Just because a baby dies and it's highly sensationalized and emotionally charged, it's not that huge in the big scheme of things. Bad things happen. A lot worse things happen than this... Hundreds of babies die from starvation in India, they're just not shown on mass media. Noone is crying for them here.

I'm sorry, but cold rationality just says that this is not a significant event in the world.
 
If that was your baby, would you feel the same way. It ain't about the baby, it's about professionalism. It's about SOPs, training, fire discipline, not shooting with a hostage unless by sniper. Think guys, would you want this bunch trying to free your kids from Islamic Terrorists that took their elementary school. I wouldn't, I could do better with a half dozen 11Bs or 0311s, a little while to train, and we will kick some IT butt. Hoo ah. Back to my earlier statement about firing 300 rounds, two months ago, these guys fired 120 rounds at a guy who was speeding.
 
Not commenting on anything here, except that I studied a site once that made a very clear argument that shooting the gun out of a person's hard is a bad idea. It was a stupid move to do it, and they were lucky it worked. But it's dangerous beyond belief. The bullet ricochets, the gun explodes into a bunch of flying pieces, and gun may even discharge. Furthermore, it's possible to miss, and then you've just started a firefight which will ultimately end in at least 1 person's death, possibly more.

It showed the exact video you mentioned, and iirc a chunk of something took a chunk out of the leg of the lawnchair the guy was sitting on, just to illustrate that stuff does go flying.
 
Five bucks says some sheeple jury will give a bigtime cash award in the lawsuit.

We know who killed this kid, her father did.

After rounds are fired, the time for negotiation is past. Many police agencies won't admit this, but that's the drill.
 
Maybe I missed it. Did somebody mention that a police officer was also shot during this situation?
 
I do, however, recall video footage of a police sharpshooter actually shooting a gun out of the hands of a man holding loosly holding a firearm. He was holding himself hostage (or contemplating suicide) sitting in a lawn chair. The video was ages ago.
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I remember seeing that too. That was pretty awesome to see it happen, but that's a different story. I wonder if there were even any snipers in position around there. I'm almost sure there were, since the holdup lasted over two hours. I wonder why they couldn't/didn't take the shot. It would have been better for one sniper bullet to fly rather than dozens from ground officers IMO.

Yes, Elmer, one police officer was shot in the shoulder.
 
I wonder if there were even any snipers in position around there. I'm almost sure there were, since the holdup lasted over two hours. I wonder why they couldn't/didn't take the shot. It would have been better for one sniper bullet to fly rather than dozens from ground officers IMO
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LAPD SWAT aren't exactly amateurs at this. I would think if it were possible, that's exactly what would have happened.
 
Yeah, so we can make the educated guess that there were snipers there. I want to hear why they weren't shooting when their buddies were.
 
Just guessing from limited info, but it sounds like the snipers were initially

trying to avaoid killing ANYBODY.

Then, the final act was inside the building, out of view of any sniper.

Just a guess, but that sounds like what happenned.
 
kal:
Some of you call the criminal a "coward" for using the baby as a shield. I call that "good tactics". Whether it's evil or not, it's still a good strategy.
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You might have been making some kind of uber-social commentary until you got to that point. :banghead: At that point you went into the abyss.

Of course he is a coward, and no it was not good "tactics". Are you forgetting he and his hostage died? Perhaps that was his goal? You are actually trying to reason with the unreasonable? It will get you everytime. :fire:

BTW, for the discussion - it is absolutely tragic on all sides. Doesn't seem there was any win in this decision matrix when he shot the officer and continued on his madness. I think more facts will come out as time progresses. One thing I would bet on is a civil suit against the LAPD from the mother of the infant.
 
Maybe the mistake was when they moved in to evacuate the neighbor they talk about. that seems like the trigger. They know he's armed and he's already fired at them, and has a toddler hostage. They had all the info but made the call to move in, and it created a direct confrontation.

Maybe learning from this a good lesson would be that if it's your policy to shoot back, regardles of who or what is between you and your target, then you should only move into contact range when you are ready to go shooting.

Plus for me, not juding other people, for me the policy of shooting through toddler children is something i or no-one I know, or no-one I can imagine would consider. I heard about WW2 vets who hesitated to kill Hitler Youth, but those kids were enemy soldiers trying to kill them. Even then there was pause.

Well, like they say one can't judge others, we weren't there, but for me I'd find it impossible, beyond consideration.

Edit:
PS. was the evac move done spur of the moment, or planned? And was it the SWAT or just some ordinary officers?
 
Time to hold the horses on guess work.

Reports currently aired from the LAPD here in LA say the death occured inside the home and that the baby was on a couch on the opposite side of the room from the dad.

Reports are also now saying the guy show 40 rounds and LAPD fired 90.

Serious lack of information to be forming judgements about snipers, SWAT teams, LAPd tactics, etc.
 
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