BG and baby killed in crossfire (merged threads)

[33-805]

As far as I know from the accounts available now, there is no round count official as of yet. Thanks Hawkmoon, for pointing out that the "300 round" remark was from the mother, not anyone who would have been counting at the time.

For all of those criticizing the officers in this one, take a second to think. The last time you were put into a no-win situation, what was the worst possible outcome? In most civilian cases, it's a business deal or something else that is negative, but not life threatening, unless perhaps you are involved in the medical fields. These guys were put into the ultimate no-win and if anyone is too willing to criticize them without all the facts maybe you should suit up and try a shift or two. Might change you from a monday morning quarterback into one of those guys who just shrug and don't say much because they were there.

 

[centac]

I am familiar with the incident in Columbus Ohio in which the BG's gun was shot from his hand. That was a VERY highly orchestrated shoot in which the guy was sitting stationary in a chair. I winced when I heard about it as it sets a dangerous precedent - now people will expect that tactic to be employed even when it is inappropriate.

Shooting to disarm just isnt a viable alternative %99.99 of the time.

 

[El Rojo]

Think guys, would you want this bunch trying to free your kids from Islamic Terrorists that took their elementary school. I wouldn't, I could do better with a half dozen 11Bs or 0311s, a little while to train, and we will kick some IT butt. Hoo ah. Back to my earlier statement about firing 300 rounds, two months ago, these guys fired 120 rounds at a guy who was speeding.

Go get 'em Joe Montana! I am sure you would out shoot these guys any day. I bet they hardly ever train for anything. And boy your right, these guys did shoot 120 rounds at a guy who was speeding. Oh wait, no actually it wasn't the LAPD SWAT team. Actually it wasn't the LAPD at all. It was actually the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department, which has nothing to do with the Los Angeles City Police Department. If you are going to quarterback this thing like a true keyboard commando, at least try and maintain some credibility by getting your basic facts straight.

 

[jdberger]

Man and Young Daughter Die in Shootout With Police

From the New York Times (sorry, don't have the LA Times version)

Man and Young Daughter Die in Shootout With Police

By JOHN M. BRODER
Published: July 12, 2005

LOS ANGELES, July 11 -An armed man and his 17-month-old daughter, whom he had been using as a shield, died on Sunday evening in a shootout with the police here.

The police on Monday defended their actions, saying the man, Jose R. Pena, left them no choice.

The police said Mr. Pena, 35, used his daughter, Susie Marie, as a shield as he shot repeatedly at police officers who, responding to a report of a disturbance, had surrounded his car wash business in the Watts section of the city. After efforts to negotiate the child's release failed and the man opened fire once again, officers shot him and the girl was killed in the exchange, a police spokesman said.

The police said Monday that it was not clear whether the child died from their bullets or Mr. Pena's. An officer, Daniel Sanchez, 39, was shot in the shoulder during the final assault and is expected to recover.

The child's mother, Lorena Lopez, said she had no doubt who fired the fatal shots.

"The police killed my daughter," Ms. Lopez said, tearfully and in Spanish, in the driveway of her green frame house on the corner of Avalon Boulevard and 104th Street. She said she had told the police during the crisis that Mr. Pena, from whom she is separated, was depressed about his failing business. "I told them he needed to be helped," she said.

Ms. Lopez said that no one from the police department had contacted her to explain how her daughter died. "I want the police to pay for this," she said.

The child was only the second hostage to be killed in a case involving the department's special weapons and tactics team in its 38-year history, Chief William J. Bratton said on Monday.

But Chief Bratton blamed Mr. Pena for the child's death, saying he precipitated the crisis by endangering neighbors and his child with a 9-millimeter pistol, which he repeatedly fired wildly. He said that Mr. Pena fired as many as 40 shots, and that the officers were following department policy in returning fire.

"The suspect's actions left the officers no choice," the chief said in a late afternoon news briefing. "It was his behavior that led to the ultimate tragedy."

In the most recent hostage case involving a death, officers shot and killed an armed man holding a pregnant woman hostage outside the Mexican consulate here last November. The woman was rescued unharmed. The man's weapon turned out to be a starter's pistol.

Accusations of excessive force have dogged the Los Angeles police for years and have led to hostile relations between the police and minority residents. The televised beating of Rodney G. King in 1991 led to riots when an all-white jury acquitted the accused officers.

Such incidents have challenged mayors in this city for decades. The shooting Sunday was the first to confront the new mayor, Antonio Villaraigosa, who took office on July 1.

Mr. Villaraigosa spoke carefully to reporters on Monday about Sunday's shooting.

"My heart is out to a grieving mother who's lost her child," he said. "My heart is also out to those officers who put their lives on the line. Not a one of them went into that situation with the intent to hurt anyone."

Eleven officers fired during the three-hour standoff, Chief Bratton said. All have been suspended under department policy and are receiving counseling. He said that all of the officers involved felt bad about the deaths.

"This was extremely traumatic for our officers," Chief Bratton said.

There was little sympathy for the police at Ms. Lopez's small home on 104th Street, just a block from the car wash. Carlos de Paz, 18, a son of Ms. Lopez and a stepbrother of Susie Marie, said the police locked him and the rest of his family in their home during the siege. Mr. de Paz said he heard "hundreds" of shots in three volleys of gunfire before the final assault, which he said began with a very loud explosion and ended with prolonged fire from automatic weapons.

"They didn't let us out of the house," he said. "My uncle tried to talk them into letting us negotiate with our stepdad, but the cops just told us to get back in the house."

Mr. de Paz said that Mr. Pena called Ms. Lopez near the end of the crisis and said the police had killed the child. "They just shot my daughter," he quoted Mr. Pena as saying. "There ain't no reason for me to live anymore."

A senior police spokesman, Lt. Paul Vernon, disputed that account, saying it was inconsistent with testimony from officers in the field. "A lot of people are saying a lot of different things," Lieutenant Vernon said, "especially the family."

 

[ckyllo]

split second to make call to shoot, weeks, months even years to have it picked apart and being told "well you should of done ...." .

 

[Pilgrim]

Once again a dysfunctional family unit calls for the police to solve their problems and ends up with an unforseen and undesired result.

Pilgrim

 

[Mad Man]

Definitely a tragedy, but it's hard to fault the police on this one. It is possible that the father's gunfire, and not the police's, killed the child.

They were being shot at. What were they supposed to do?

The televised beating of Rodney G. King in 1991 led to riots when an all-white jury acquitted the accused officers.

A great example of media bias. What does that have to do with this incident?


DISCLAIMER: I am not nor have I ever been a police officer. I wasn't there, and the only facts I have are from the biased media. Therefore, I don't have the right to judge the actions of LEOs, even favorably. Blah blah blah.

 

[HI express]

News this morning

33-805,
The news this morning reported 40+ rounds fired by the perp and 90+ rounds fired by LAPD.

My PO? Movies are showing too much of this "one shot one kill" idea. Public buys into this.

 

[El Rojo]

Another classic case of the police having to shoot someone and it is the police's fault, not the guy shooting his 9mm all over the neighborhood and holding his child hostage. I would hope I would stand up and apologize in front of the media for my wife going on a shooting rampage. I would hope I would be able to recognize her actions caused this unfortunate accident and that I would even apologize to the officer who was shot and the officers who had to shoot my child. Is that too much to ask for?

 

[Cosmoline]

Eleven officers fired during the three-hour standoff,

That's horrible. 11 cops were blasting away!? They must have missed repeatedly over the course of the standoff. I find that FAR more disturbing than the possibility that a sniper simply rolled snake eyes. The whole point of SWAT was supposed to be to prevent this kind of shooting gallery. They should have stayed under cover until someone with a PROPER FIREARM who knew how to use it could bring it to bear. Suppressing fire has no place in a hostage situation.

If "civilians" from the neighborhood had blasted away in this fashion, they would all be in jail and the LAPD would be screaming bloody murder.

 

[Cazach]

Local news (KFI) had the following info this morning:

There were at least three seperate gunfire exchanges

1st was between suspect and uniformed officers responding to the initial call. (Suspect was holding toddler during exchange)

2nd was in back of building when suspect (after barricading himself) tried to slip out the back. This was reported to be a shot from a S.W.A.T. officer that may have wounded the suspect. The suspect then turn and ran back in the building while shooting at officers. (not clear if suspect was holding the child at this point). Also officers were able to free another hostage (reported as the suspect's 17 year old daughter)

3rd was during the breach by S.W.A.T (which immediately followed the 2nd exchange above). The officers saw an opportunity and rushed to try to get the toddler out. One officer was shot during his toss of a flashbang, suspect was found behind a desk in a office, the toddler was found on the opposite side of the room.

Also KFI reported that there may be a twist to the motive for this guy's actions. It had been reported that he was depressed because his business was failing. The new spin was that he had been served with a restraining order having to do with child molestation. To further thicken the plot, the poor toddler that died is rumored to have been fathered by him with his own stepdaughter.

Horrible situation for the family and the officers.

 

[Cesiumsponge]

Also KFI reported that there may be a twist to the motive for this guy's actions. It had been reported that he was depressed because his business was failing. The new spin was that he had been served with a restraining order having to do with child molestation. To further thicken the plot, the poor toddler that died is rumored to have been fathered by him with his own stepdaughter.

Oh boy, the media is going to elucidate on all those over the following weeks and drag this all out.

 

[Vernal45]

Autopsy to determine if police killed toddler
Infant held by father during gunbattle

LOS ANGELES, California (AP) -- Police expect autopsy results to determine whether a bullet that killed a 19-month girl was fired by police or her father, who authorities say used the toddler as a shield in a gunbattle that lasted nearly three hours.

Both the girl, Susie Lopez, and her father, Jose Raul Pena, were killed as Pena dueled with police on Sunday. One officer was wounded.

On Monday, Police Chief William Bratton said his officers were having a difficult time coping with the girl's death.

"This has been extraordinarily traumatic for them, wondering if they possibly contributed to the death of a child or maybe caused the death with their own gunfire," Bratton told a news conference.

He said officers followed regulations allowing them to fire "when it reasonably appears necessary" to protect themselves or others from death or serious injury.

The girl's mother, Lorena Lopez, said she pleaded with officers to hold their fire.

"He had problems with depression, his business was not doing well," Lopez told KNBC-TV. "I told them that he needed help, he needs a psychologist, but please don't shoot."

Bratton said the fatal shooting was only the second time a hostage had been killed since the department formed its SWAT team in 1967. In that time, SWAT officers have responded to 3,800 calls involving hostages or people barricaded inside buildings.

It was the second time in nine months that Los Angeles officers have fired on an assailant holding a hostage. In November, police shot a man who held a pregnant woman by the neck outside the Mexican Consulate. Officers pulled the woman away unharmed and the man later died.

Sunday night's killings followed a three-hour standoff in which Pena, 34, exchanged gunfire with officers three separate times.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/07/12/la.shootout.ap/index.html

 

[El Rojo]

Here it comes!

If "civilians" from the neighborhood had blasted away in this fashion, they would all be in jail and the LAPD would be screaming bloody murder.

Yes, thank you Cosmoline. It was only a matter of time before the job of a SWAT team to surround and negotiate with bad guys is compared to a normal group of citizens that just happens to also have this job. Nothing like comparing apples to oranges.

Again, no civilian in the world has the legal right to surround a building and try and force and end to a stand off. That is exactly what we pay police for and legal provide them the authority to do. There would never be a situation where a group of civilians would inheriet this job, so why make the comparison?

 

[Rich K]

I was not there,so will just say prayers for the officers involved,and for the soul of the baby.And one more,that the man holding that baby as a human shiled will roast in hell for eternity.

 

[Cosmoline]

Yes, thank you Cosmoline. It was only a matter of time before the job of a SWAT team to surround and negotiate with bad guys is compared to a normal group of citizens that just happens to also have this job. Nothing like comparing apples to oranges.

The SWAT team did not "surround and negotiate" with the bad guy. The LAPD tripped over itself in an ongoing firefight, spraying hundreds of rounds into a house they knew to contain hostages and hitting nothing but blue sky and a baby.

Civilians do have a right to use deadly force do defend the life of another. At least they do up here in the free world. California may be another matter. As I said, if "civilians" (read--neighbors) had actually tried to stop this guy and ended up in that kind of a firefight, they would all be in prison with the LAPD screaming for their blood and marrow. But of course when neighbors do intervene, they usually get the job done without shooting anyone or even calling the cops.

Motto of the LAPD:

"ONE LAW FOR THEE
ANOTHER FOR ME"

 

[campbellcj]

Per one radio report this morning, 11 LAPD officers fired approximately 90 rounds towards the BG...I guess they must've eventually hit him with one or more of those shots, but if this report is accurate it really makes me wonder what is up with the officers' accuracy and/or judgement? No disprespect intended, but why are they shooting in the first place if they do not have a reasonable chance of a clean hit taking their skill, equipment and conditions into consideration?

Seems to me that a "1 shot, 1 kill" sniper operation could have saved the child's life and prevented a messy situation that is causing big community backlash. Don't most/all SWAT units have snipers on staff?

 

[El Rojo]

The SWAT team did not "surround and negotiate" with the bad guy. The LAPD tripped over itself in an ongoing firefight, spraying hundreds of rounds into a house they knew to contain hostages and hitting nothing but blue sky and a baby.

Do you have a source for that? Would you care to outline how long this thing lasted? You imply it was over within minutes. Also it has been stated that the officers fired 90 rounds between 11 officers, you claim hundreds. The suspect is dead, you claim they only hit the baby. It still has not been confirmed who hit the baby. Sensationalism does us no good Cosmoline.

8 rounds each is hardly a spray and pray situation. Its sad that before we even have solid information, we have members on here who are more than willing to display their anti-LEO agenda with a sensationalist spin before the facts are in. Just like the bad guy's family. It is the cops fault that he chose to take a baby hostage, shoot up a community, and endanger lives. Why do I even bother?

 

[ghostrider07]

Seems to me that a "1 shot, 1 kill" sniper operation could have saved the child's life and prevented a messy situation that is causing big community backlash. Don't most/all SWAT units have snipers on staff?

Since we have the President of the LAPD SWAT Fan Club here, maybe he can explain the rationale in assaulting someone with hostages, drunk, drugged, and highly agitated. If this dude was that wasted, why couldn't they wait a few hours, let him pass out and take him without firing a shot. Why did the SWAT team commander decide to end it that soon, guys need to get home to mow the lawn, drink a beer, city couldn't afford the overtime.

#16 Joe "They Botched It" Montana

 

[Duh_Bear]

If what I read was accurate, the perp forced the officer's hands when he fired on them.

 

[JohnBT]

"why couldn't they wait a few hours"

Let's say you're the hostage. Would you want to be left alone with the guy for a few hours until he passed out? How about a few days until the meth wore off?

John

 

[griz]

If this dude was that wasted, why couldn't they wait a few hours

This from the first article:

According to police, Lemos fired at police several times over the next several hours before he ran out of the house -- first firing indiscriminately, then directly at officers, hitting one in the shoulder.

Waiting just isn't an option if faced with someone charging the police and firing at them. But any of the reports could be in error, it's probably time to wait for the details to come out.

Edited to add:
After re-reading I see that you meant the assult could have waited. You may be right, I have no way of knowing.
But lets remember that the cops are stuck in a situation where the BEST option is still very risky and they have to decide quickly. In other words "lose-lose". We have the luxury of hindsight, spell check, and time to think it over. Plus if we are wrong nobody dies.

 

[axmurderer]

I wish the police could have taken this guy out with a sniper, but I wasn't there so maybe it wasn't possible. But seems to me the police are in no way to blame for the child's death.

I also hear that the father's family is defending him, and saying that the police should have had more patience. The fact that they say nothing to condemn the father for using his child as a sheild, tells me all I need to know however.

 

[PaladinVC]

Of course, if I had been there, I'd have seen the man clutching the infant and firing at the officers, smoothly drawn my CCW pistol, stood calmly up from cover into the hail of bullets, taken a deep breath, placed my left hand behind my back, lined up my sights, and fired a single, lethal shot through the subject's cerebellum. Then, I'd drink a vodka martini, play some baccarat, and go back to the hotel with a gorgeous Russian woman.

Without combat experience, I cannot imagine what it must be like to find yourself in such a horrific situation. My basic faith in humanity compels me to believe that none of the officers thought, "Nuts to that little girl, I'm just going to pull this trigger until it stops throwing lead!" I also think that it is unreasonable to expect a 100% success rate from anybody in these situations. Does anyone here believe that the net number of violent tragedies would be reduced if the LAPD said, "You're right, guys. We suck at this. You take care of it from now on."

It's a rotten situation, and a rotten outcome. Nobody in the whole world feels good about this.

 

[LawDog]

90 shots by eleven officers during three seperate episodes over a several hour period.

Since the critter was holding a child as a shield, I'm going to guess that most -- or all -- of the 90 shots were taken by officers trying to hit the critter, but miss the child.

To simplify:

• We have a critter juking and jiving in and out of buildings, and around cover.
• Said critter is holding a child in front of his COM, so the officers are trying to take head shots.
• While the critter is shooting at - and hitting - the officers.
• Each and every sight picture each officer obtains includes the screaming child.

Goodness. Moving headshot ain't easy. Moving headshot while receiving fire is that much harder. Now add in the subconscious inclination not to point a gun anywhere near a child, and I'm damned impressed that the officers hit the SOB in 90 shots.

LawDog