BG and baby killed in crossfire (merged threads)

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I don't understand, was the kid found dead sitting inside a building, or was the man carrying her when he ran out shooting at the officers???

And I can understand and respect the opinions that disagree, but in the same note I'm still going to respectfully disagree that it should ever, ever ever, be considered to fire when a child is in or near the bullet path.

Well, maybe 100 or 1000 people, that might be a fair trade 'never ever' is a little strong. If shooting would save a thousand people I could see it being justified. And since I find I'm actually flexible here, I'll assume that under duress I'd be flexible down to hundreds or even dozens of people saved. But that's absolute rock-bottom.

And to be fair, no policy maker will ever write down a formula showing how many lives must be saved to justify risking a toddler, so the police were working perhaps without firm guidance.
 
Lawdog--taking headshots with handguns at a moving suspect holding a child is #$%! INSANE. I'd venture to say only the best pistol shooters would be able to make such a hit. This does not mean the LAPD are great for trying such a stunt. It means they are irresponsible morons. If you don't have a reasonable chance of actually hitting the guy, and he's HOLDING A BABY(!!) YOU DO NOT TAKE THE SHOT!

I don't hate LEO's, but I've never heard anything good about the LAPD. In fact, everyone I know who's had the unfortunate experience of actually living in that hell on Earth has agreed that they are robocops at best and armed nutjobs at worse. They regard themselves as soldiers in a war--and this is just the latest in a long, long string of episodes that show us where that attitude leads.
 
"They regard themselves as soldiers in a war--"

Spenard's a long way from Central and Rampart :rolleyes:

Getting confronted but a nut using a baby as a human shield'll make ya think that......
 
LA isn't Spenard, either. This is a wild and crazy place in its own right, with plenty of DV related standoffs. There were several just over the past few months in Anchorage, including one where a man in Turnagain fired at cops. Oddly, our cops have shown a reluctance to spray rounds at men using women and children as human shields. Or even into homes where they simply don't know what's behind the window or wall.
 
Goodness. Moving headshot ain't easy. Moving headshot while receiving fire is that much harder. Now add in the subconscious inclination not to point a gun anywhere near a child, and I'm damned impressed that the officers hit the SOB in 90 shots.
Click to expand...
Good point.

I suspect it's a lot easier when the bad guy and the hostage are both printed on a sheet of paper hung at 25 yards down range, and not moving around.
 
Let's also remember that LA LEO also had another spray and pray shoot out about 2 months ago. Over 120 rounds fired, hit the unarmed suspect 4 times and another cop once.

Who ever trains LA LEO should be fired and new trainers brought in... and officers disarmed till then get trained and learn how to put hits on target.

This is totaly unacceptable behavior from LEO.
 
I understand, but the more I think about it, self-preservation is a hard instinct to curb.

It should have been curbed,

but maybe there's just no wide-scale policy, and now after this maybe there will be. For instance they could work out a model of the severity that an errant bullet would cause to the child, if they're 10 they might have less liklihood of death than one that's 2. Then they could say "OK it's a small to medium sized kid, so we estimate only a 60% chance of death or horrific injury when shot with a hollow-point 9mm, so if the situation happens you should not return fire, only retreat."
 
Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Family (and others) is now bitching that the officers should have waited it out.

Had the officers waited it out and said dirtbag murdered his child, family (and others) would be bitching that the officers didn't do enough.

I have no doubt that all involved feel horrible. Hopefully I never have to go through anything even close to this.
 
have the police hold fire till the bad guy runs out of ammo. while the bad guy shoots at people left and right. if the dirtbag is willing to use his own child as a shield there is a good chance that he may be saving the last 2 shots, 1 for the kid and 1 for him. how many other people would of been killed if the police hadent engauged the BG? only 1 person is to blame and that is the POS that would put his own kid in that situtation!
 
Coroner: Toddler killed by LAPD bullet
Police say gunman used daughter as shield

LOS ANGELES, California (CNN) -- The 19-month-old toddler who died during a gunfire exchange between police and her father was killed by a single police bullet to the head, the Los Angeles County coroner said Wednesday.

The report said it came from a Los Angeles Police Department officer's rifle.

The girl's father, Jose Raul Pena, died as a result of multiple gunshot wounds, the coroner said.

Pena, 34, was holding his daughter Suzy when he opened fire on police last Sunday, unleashing 40 shots in three separate exchanges. He and his daughter died in a hail of gunfire after he confronted police in an alley behind his apartment.

A total of 11 officers fired nearly 90 shots at Pena.

Chief William Bratton said Monday that Pena "left the officers no choice."

The LAPD's internal investigative unit was looking into the shooting, and its findings will be reviewed by the district attorney's office and the civilian Police Commission.

In a timeline offered by Bratton, the incident began at 2 p.m. when Pena's estranged wife made a domestic terrorist report, accusing him of threatening her, his 17-year-old stepdaughter and the toddler.

At that time, officers could not find him, Bratton said.

About two hours later, the stepdaughter called 911 from Pena's auto dealership to report that he had threatened her, Bratton said.

Before police arrived, a dispatcher called back, and the stepdaughter answered, but the call abruptly ended, Bratton said.

After 4 p.m., shortly after officers arrived, Pena began shooting, using the toddler as a shield, Bratton said.

The 17-year-old stepdaughter escaped, later telling police that Pena was under the influence of cocaine and alcohol and had threatened to kill her, the toddler, his wife and himself, Bratton said.

Though crisis negotiators were able to talk by telephone with Pena at 5 p.m., he ended the call about 5:35 p.m., Bratton said.

At about 6:30 p.m., in the last of the shootings, Pena and the baby were killed.

Sunday's incident was only the second time in the 38-year history of the SWAT team that a hostage died during a standoff involving the unit, Bratton said. In the last incident, in the 1970s, the victim was killed by the hostage-taker, he said.

CNN's Stan Wilson contributed to this story.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/07/13/to...ting/index.html
 
According to the diagram present on TFL (TFL link, the fatal shots were fired when the perp saw some officers in an alley, fired on them, and then fled into an interior office and officers chased him inside. This may have been a blown takedown operation. Who knows at this point?

Lose/lose situation for all involved. You can't save a hostage without either some rationality on the hostagetaker's part or decisive action by the police. In the absence of the former, the latter is twice as dangerous for all involved.
 
LAPD Shooting-aftermath

I would like to hear your opinions. The LAPD was involved in a shooting incident where the father held his baby daughter as a shield and shot at the LAPD, wounding one officer. The police returned fire, killing the man and the baby girl.

Reports showed that he shot over 40 rounds. The same reports showed that the police officers fired over 90 rounds.

That is not the parts that I really wanted your opinions on. These were just the facts.

What I wanted was your opinion on the aftermath where the folks.. whoever they are, are starting protests, the wife blames LAPD for shooting her daughter and husband and she claims she wants justice.

MHO? These protesters watch too many movies where a person with a handgun can shoot and wound at will, much like the old westerns where they shot the handgun out of a BG's hand. I know, combined with the rising heat and not having a real life, a lot of these protesters are getting worked up over a sad result of a man who used his baby as a shield and felt that while he shot at the police officers they would not shoot back.
 
A horrible situation. Barring a sniper taking a shot, and apparantly one wasn't available, I don't see what else the cops could've done. I suspect that the mother will see a healthy settlement form the city though.
And El, I think that "The Decadent Gunman" would make a great screen name.
Mind if I steal it? :)
Biker
 
Many of these protesters are plain idiots. They are same ones who think it's ok for a 13 year old to try and run a police officer with no repercussions.

I can gaurantee that these are the same people who leach off of society.
 
This woman showed NO emotion whatsoever after this happened, besides the obligatory 5 minute wailing ( we all would) then the next day, shes out there with the protestors and talking a civil suit against the LAPD.
SHES A MONEY WHORE!
The child wasn't even cold yet when some greedy shark was whispering $$$ in her ear.
I really don't want to sound callus, I'm not..(she deserves it,the money that is) but she could have waited till after the funeral for this BS!
 
Aw hell, El, now, apparantly, my insomnia has a new friend-dyslexia. That would explain much: Lately, I've been laying in my bed, wide awake for hours, wondering if there really is a Dog.
Biker :)
 
Not sur eI understand the outcry

Kids die every day, sad? Sure.... What are the chances this kid would be a scientist that cured cancer anyway? More than likely he/she would be a "cancer."
Stupid people ask why the cops can't wound someone and stupid police dept politicos kiss ass instead of speking the truth and explaining why it's not usually possible. hat should be followed by some state official saying your life choices prove you are scum and an unfit mother. Followed by the state Bar saying they will sanction any member caught contacting the "victim mommy."
We have decent Americans dying for reasons they don't really know in Iraq -at their own choice. I don't have time to handwring over a dead welfare baby.
Trust me, she will make 10 more....
Man am I cranky or what?
CT
 
If my understanding...

of the situation is correct the idiot was gunned down while trying to escape a police set perimeter, while firing indiscriminately and using his own child as a shield.

While tragic, the death of the child lies firmly under the responsibility of the idiot. My hope is the policemen that were in a position to possibly be the one firing the shot that killed the child are given the help, counseling, and support needed to understand the idiot killed his own child.

From my understanding of the situation it devolves to a simple math problem much like that faced by military pilots on a September day 4 years ago. If the police had held their fire and let him escape the possibility of many innocents being killed was very high (it was reported that he was shooting indiscriminately at various times and aimed fire at others). It was one of those tough decisions that no individual should be forced to make but seem to be having to be made at an alarming rate.

I would hope that the first judge that runs across this lawsuit rules the mother is perfectly free to sue the estate of her late husband for any damages she perceives she is owed due to the death of her child (whatever there is left after the police officers get a share for the mental pain and anguish the idiot's actions caused them).

migoi
 
Questioning the police actions and response in this situation is not out of line. A child is dead, through no fault of her own. Where were the vaunted snipers of the LA Swat team? Valid question in my book.
 
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