Birdshot Damage, Close Range (Photos at link)

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I store my guns in varying states of readiness depending on their purpose. When I handle any of them I do so as if they are loaded.
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I do the same. I was just making the point that storing a gun loaded isn't a bad thing.

Ignorance is bliss.

If someone was hit in the shoulder with a deer slug they could walk away. 140 lb deer run away after being shot with all sorts of heavy hitters. Its shot placement no matter what the gun or what its loaded with. If that bird shot hit him in the face, neck or heart this thread would have started a whole lot more grim.
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No shot is a sure shot but if shooting CoM, which is recommended across the board by professionals, doesn't work then you seriously need to reconsider what you are using for defense. Hitting vital organs or the CNS is what you want to do for the most effective way to stop someone. If those little pellets from birdshot can't make it past the rib cage then guess what? Use a proper defensive loadout.

Oh yeah, there are a couple of people that have survived being shot point blank range in the face with a shotgun loaded with birdshot. Look up face transplant patients. No matter how you look at it, birdshot just plain sucks for defense. Sure it can kill someone but so can pellet guns. Just because it can doesn't mean it's the best or even if it should.
 
Ok, didn't read all 3 pages or look at the photos. But wouldn't the victim have had to grab the shotgun by the barrel with the muzzle pointing at himself for this to happen? Shame on the SIL for leaving it loaded, but blame on the victim for shooting himself via poor gun handling.
 
That was a really nasty wound that will undoubtedly give life long issues.
And...The never ending debate about about the effectivness of birdshot as a defense load will never end.
I would not choose it as my first thought but I am one who absolutely has seen it's lethal effect.
Not on a human but on two decent sized feral hogs that ran across a jeep road on a private ranch that were shot from approximately 20 feet away with an old Ithaca model 37 in 20 gauge loaded with 7 1/2 shot.
Both were shot quickly with one shot each in the head and both were dead as a damn hammer when they went down.
Again,I would not opt for bird shot to go up against someone but your kidding yourself if you dont think it's effective at close range.
I gained a lot of respect for birdshot that hot September morning.
 
i have seen similar birdshot wounds at that range firsthand, and the 160lb man never made it back to his feet.
Birdshot is unquestionably effective in a room or hallway for defense, with no danger of overpenetration.
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No, birdshot is not unquestionably effective in a room or hallway for defense.... While you might have seen a 160 lb man never get up from a load of birdshot, I will share with you a story that I have told a couple of times here:

My grandfather was a surgeon, general practitioner, and coroner of a rural Kansas county during the '50s and '60s. One instance that he remembered and learned a lesson from is when a man attempted to kill himself. He loaded up a 12 ga with birdshot (#7 shot IIRC) and shot himself in the chest, point blank. Not only was the shot not instantly incapacitating, the man was able to get up from his chair, walk roughly 200 yards to his neighbor's and have them get him to my grandfather to receive medical attention (he had a change of heart and didn't want to die anymore apparently). During the 30 minutes between the shot being fired and the man arriving on my grandfather's table, he never lost consciousness and never lost his strength. After 3 hours of operating on him, my grandfather removed the majority of the pellets and stitched the man up. The man suffered from a large hole in his chest, his right lung was punctured by several pellets, his sternum was and several ribs were broken, but he had no immediately fatal wounds and he did not find any pellets that made it further than 6" into the patient's chest. (The patient actually later returned to my grandfather complaining that there were still some pellets in his chest that were causing him some pain :rolleyes:)

Nothing is absolute, and saying that birdshot is unquestionably effective at close range? Not quite sure I agree with that one...
 
1) The firearm is always loaded. (Assume it is always loaded).
2) Never point the firearm at anything you do not want to destroy.
3)Be aware of your target and what is behind it.
4) Keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire.

I feel sorry for this guy and his shoulder. Negligent discharges happen fast and when least expected. Let us all continue to practice vigilance about firearms safety.

Do you think they will operate to remove all that shot?
 
What do we consider "birdshot"? Only 7 1/2 - 9 pellets, or anything but buckshot? I've thought of using #6 shot for defense to minimize overpenetration through drywall as I have close neighbors.
 
Good story. Obviously the gun safety message is important and that shotguns with any load should not be disregarded.

I also find it interesting that most anti-gun folks a) want to let us to "keep out shotguns" (until phase 2) and b) want to exclude the SIL from any bans because of his service record.


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ilmonster said:
What do we consider "birdshot"? Only 7 1/2 - 9 pellets, or anything but buckshot? I've thought of using #6 shot for defense to minimize overpenetration through drywall as I have close neighbors.
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Most places have a pretty clean line difference between birdshot and buckshot. Birdshot ranges from about 2mm diameter to just under 4.5mm in the common birdshot loads (#9 to BB) wheras buckshot goes from 6.1 to 9.1mm (#4 buck to 000 buck)
 
thank you for sharing. while graphic, sometimes it takes something like this to make you stop for a second and think about gun safety, which i believe was the OPs point.

on the birdshot question, to each his own. i think its a great multi-use option and would feel pretty comfortable with my 870 18.5" loaded with 6+1 of birdshot in a home break-in scenario.
 
Good take away from this thread... common sense and learning from others make for a smart approach in: 1) avoiding accidents, and 2) surviving deadly threats.

1) ALWAYS follow the 4 simple safety rules rigidly and this kind of thing is extremely unlikely to happen to you.

2) When loading your shotgun for defense purposes, using proven medicine... 00 Buckshot, preferably in 12 ga., is extremely likely to STOP the threat, if you do your part.
 
I had a Dr. friend who was a gun nut and was on call at the local ER from time to time. He said that he hated bird shot wounds the most, "You have all these tiny bleeders to patch up and you work your ass off stopping the leaks and the the jack ass still dies on you". Back in the 70's I did a lot of quail hunting with a 870 20 ga. and I have killed several deer at close range with a 1oz. load of #8's to the axis joint (skull/neck junction).
 
There's no question in my mind that birdshot can be lethal.

There's also no question in my mind that there are better choices for self defense - if you have time to make a choice.

I suspect there's at least one lawyer - shot in the face by a former Vice President - who is very glad the latter was using birdshot rather than buck or slug . . .
 
there are a couple of people that have survived being shot point blank range in the face with a shotgun loaded with birdshot.
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True but there are people who have survived being shot in the face with a 30-06. watched "the Whites" on Netflix one of them shot there uncle in the face with a 30-06 and he lived.

Buck shot is better option of course. But is the video from GunBlast fake?
 
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Fred Fuller said:
One instance that he remembered and learned a lesson from is when a man attempted to kill himself.

I posted links to a story from Australia here several times in the past - that story is no longer available online free, but some details can be seen at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_gunshot_suicide .
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"One particular case has been documented from Australia. In February 1995, a man committed suicide on parkland in Canberra, Australia. He took a pump action shotgun and shot himself in the chest. The load passed through the chest without hitting a rib, and went out the other side. He then walked fifteen meters, reloaded, leaned the shotgun against his throat, and shot his throat and part of his jaw. He then reloaded, walked 136 meters to a hill slope, lay down on the slope, held the gun against his chest with his hands and operated the trigger with his toes. This shot entered the thoracic cavity and demolished the heart, killing him."

Uhh..

Holy crap. That was one determined dude.
 
To those claiming that bird shot is effective at HD distances, you're wrong. That picture shows the results at point blank distance, not across the room distance. Too many variable will reduce the effects of bird shot, like body size, amount of fat/muscle, impact angle, bone structure, placement of shot, distance, amount and type of clothing etc. Yes it will make hamburger out of the first couple inches of tissue, but beyond that, all of these variables lessen the chances that bird shot will reach the vitals and quickly stop an immediate threat.
 
theblakester did you watch the GUNBLAST video? In the video our bearded friend shoots meat and bone and clothes at across room distance.
 
Yes I did. He claimed 4 inches of penetration beyond the bone, but his fingers didn't go half that deep into the tissue. bird shot might not penetrate deep enough on a large muscular man in heavy clothing. Plus, what if he's standing sideways and the bird shot hits his arm/shoulder first. It may not penetrate through the arm/shoulder and then through his ribs and into his vitals. What if your shot strikes bone at 10 yards, and at an angle? Most bad guys aren't going to stand directly in front of you hanging in an onion bag and let you take a perfect shot into the gut or diaphragm. Under stress your shots might not be perfectly placed. In an ideal situation bird shot can quickly stop someone, but I choose to plan for a less than ideal perfect situation. And buck shot has a much much better chance at hitting vitals when these variables present themselves.
 
Don't get me wrong, it was a good video and it showed that bird shot at normal room distance does more damage than a lot of people think. I'd be interested to watch the same experiment with #2 bird shot and BB size shot.
 
BB shot would be interesting I agree. I gotta add though I would imagine if that meat was a threat, the threat would have been motivated to leave. If the threat was on enough meth not to feel it a .45 acp wouldn't be much better.
 
Probably true, but i dont trust probably. And a 45 acp is more likely to penetrate straight through your jacket, through your arm/bone, through your. Jacket again, through your ribs, and into your vitals than #8 bird shot.

And if that pork meat was a threat, I'd just cook it a little longer to make sure all the bacteria and parasites were dead ;)
 
HA! Clint had that M1 ready didn't he? Seemed to work good for him in "Grand Torino".
 
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