Underestimating the 12ga

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sarduy

sarduy

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Yesterday i went to the range to teach a coworker son and his girlfriend friend how to use a shotgun he bought for the first time (mossberg 500), so we set some reactive targets ( crays, cans, sodas and water bottles ) to make it fun. Also to teach them the spread. They were having a great time with some low recoil birdshots they bought.

Then they were approached by a young guy (18-20y) who told them that the 12ga wasn’t a good home defense because it didn’t had enough power, i looked at him like o_O...he said he had shot a shotgun before and he didn’t felt anything, pointing at the birdshot they were using. After 2 mins talking to this guy I realized he only shot once and it was a birdshot, But sure he liked to run his mouth. so me been the good samaritan that i am :evil::evil::evil: I explained to him that it’s about ammo selection and invited him to try my gun (Mossberg 590A1) loaded with 3” 1oz high brass slugs. Needless to say once that first slug went off his eyes opened up like :eek: and after the second he just put it down and walked away rubbing his shoulder back to his line With his friends who were shooting a ruger 1022 and an AR15.
The couple and I continued having a blast and a ton of fun. They went home with a good understanding of how a shotgun works and what ammo to use for what application.
 
A shotgun wouldn't be my 1st choice for anything other than shooting small game on the run or fly. But they are versatile enough to use a variety of ammo and be acceptable in a lot of other roles. If a fellow could only have one gun to do everything with it would have to be a shotgun.
 
Very well done... but I'm just nasty enough not to say one word to idiots (it wastes your time and usually annoys them, rather than being an educational experience - but I have been fool enough to try every now and then...).

Shotguns in general have probably had more mis-information given out in the form of movies, TV, and popular culture than any other type of firearm. Folks growing up in the countryside where a shotgun is not only commonplace but also probably the first gun any will use from the first time will always not only know better - but have real world experience to back it up...

In police work it's almost a rule of thumb that many new recruits will never prefer or use a shotgun if they have a choice. They come with many pre-conceived notions and will struggle just to meet minimum standards with a standard riot gun. That was one of the drivers for the move away from shotguns in police work that was well underway when I retired out in 1995...

Used within its limitations I can't think of any other weapon I'd rather have in a close quarters confrontation (I define that as at distances from 15 meters and closer). It is and will remain a closer quarters one shot fight ender... No matter what anyone says...as long as you have the right ammo.
 
It’s all in projectile size. Unlike a rifle or pistol where there is 1 item moving and carrying all of the momentum from the barrel to the target, shotguns have multiple projectiles, and each one is just a fraction of the overall power of the shotgun. Each projectile has to create its own wound track by ripping and tearing through clothing, fur, skin, meat, bone, and since it carries such a relatively small amount of energy based upon small mass and low velocity (1000-1200fps or so at target distance) it’s not going to penetrate far, especially bird shot which is tiny. Move up to buckshot and you suddenly have respectable mass so your penetrating and doing real damage, slugs even more so. It’s no surprise that people aren’t impressed with shotguns if all they see is shot sizes typically #4 or less.
 
jmr40 said:
A shotgun wouldn't be my 1st choice for anything other than shooting small game on the run or fly. But they are versatile enough to use a variety of ammo and be acceptable in a lot of other roles. If a fellow could only have one gun to do everything with it would have to be a shotgun.[/
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From my understanding the 12 gauge is the preferred firearm for many Conservation Officers if they have to deal with a wounded bruin.
 
Good lesson learned there;) Why is our hobby filled with so many doggone knowitalls? Now if the 590a1 beat him up, think what he would have thought about lighting off that high brass out of something like a single shot Handy:D
The 12 gauge is no slouch and probably the most versitile common firearm currently. With skill and ammo type, you can pop everything from bunnies to brown bears. Cheap to buy and feed, eats most anything, tough to break, and you can pick up ammo (usually) from anywhere from a sporting goods store to a Wally World.

I woud get rid of every other gun I own before I gave up my 12.
 
Once I , at 145 lbs, was shooting my Mossberg 500 12 gauge with 18" slug barrel and a synthetic stock and it knocked out one of my contact lenses . Still love that gun.
There often seems to be an expert at public ranges. Like the day I was getting ready to fire my Mini 14 . I advised the group a few tables down that were listening to " the expert " . He asked what I had and told his group that it was not loud enough for them to don their hearing protection. I'll bet they questioned his advice after that!
 
nhcruffler said:
From my understanding the 12 gauge is the preferred firearm for many Conservation Officers if they have to deal with a wounded bruin.
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One reason they prefer them is because they can use less lethal cartridges. Potential problem bears get hit with rubber or bean-bag rounds to try to dissuade them if they begin to show signs of a disagreeable lifestyle. If that doesn't work they usually have to be trapped and relocated. Dogs are also used (handled by conservation officers) to try to intimidate bears and keep them fearful of the habitations of mankind, but the 12 gauge with less lethal is used because of the loud noise and pain it can create. The 12 gauge is also entirely adequate for bear defense, especially with the Black Bears that most commonly encroach upon communities. I remember reading about an incident, I think it was about a year ago but it might have been two, where a bear officer loaded the wrong ammo in their shotgun. Their agency didn't have orange guns yet. They had intended to use a less lethal round but killed a bear that was somewhat of a celebrity in the community. It didn't go well. Some of the bear advocates out there are nearly as fanatical as the feral horse extremists.
 
labnoti said:
One reason they prefer them is because they can use less lethal cartridges. Potential problem bears get hit with rubber or bean-bag rounds to try to dissuade them if they begin to show signs of a disagreeable lifestyle. If that doesn't work they usually have to be trapped and relocated. Dogs are also used (handled by conservation officers) to try to intimidate bears and keep them fearful of the habitations of mankind, but the 12 gauge with less lethal is used because of the loud noise and pain it can create. The 12 gauge is also entirely adequate for bear defense, especially with the Black Bears that most commonly encroach upon communities. I remember reading about an incident, I think it was about a year ago but it might have been two, where a bear officer loaded the wrong ammo in their shotgun. Their agency didn't have orange guns yet. They had intended to use a less lethal round but killed a bear that was somewhat of a celebrity in the community. It didn't go well. Some of the bear advocates out there are nearly as fanatical as the feral horse extremists.
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I was referring to injured , hit by car , shot by homeowner type situation. My neighbor traps bears for research and helps F&G with problem bears. I can tell you from first hand experience that once a black bear decides your place has food that it can be darn near impossible to convince them otherwise. Once I went out and fired off a round to scare a bear in my back yard. At 50 ' she just looked at me and huffed as she stomped her front feet. I went back inside!
 
All that’s needed at close quarters is a 2 3/4 round with 00buck or an ordinary foster type slug in that same shell size for two legged animals... You have to see the damage a center of mass hit will do to believe it. Although I always had slugs available for barricaded situations that ordinary 00buck was what that shotgun was loaded with every time.
 
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I am a 12ga Buckshot Junkie. Have been all my life. Killed a whole lot of deer and always with 12 ga Buck. Now I am also the nicest guy I know. So if this Snowflake came over to tell me what the hell I was doing wrong, and what I should be doing right. I would have smiled and said God Bless you my Son. Thank you for the great advice. And for sure would not have wasted one round of Buck to show this guy the way of the world. Let him believe what he wants, because he needs a lot more learning about life than just Shotguns. And no, you do not need a slug unless going for yardage. Regardless, in my Old age and with the great amount of Patience I was given by the almighty, I use that gift to be polite, politically correct all the time. But GD it. My patience is about run out.
 
When instructor Il Ling taught conservation agents, geologists and others at Gunsite on protection from large animals such as bears, she recommended a 12 ga. with slugs.

Back in the day, Jack O'Connor wrote that guides on hunts for tiger in India relied on the 12 ga. with slugs.

Because of the recoil and sound pressure of the 12, Rob Pincus suggests looking at a 20 ga. with slugs.

That would be my choice.
 
WestKentucky said:
It’s no surprise that people aren’t impressed with shotguns if all they see is shot sizes typically #4 or less.
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I guess that all depends on the scenario. As a longtime target shooter and bird hunter, I shoot a lot more in the 6, 7.5, 8, 8.5 range than I do in the 0,00,000 buck or slug range. I like my retinas attached and shoulder unbattered.............o_O:thumbup:
 
Kleanbore said:
When instructor Il Ling taught conservation agents, geologists and others at Gunsite on protection from large animals such as bears, she recommended a 12 ga. with slugs.

Back in the day, Jack O'Connor wrote that guides on hunts for tiger in India relied on the 12 ga. with slugs.

Because of the recoil and sound pressure of the 12, Rob Pincus suggests looking at a 20 ga. with slugs.

That would be my choice.
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I do not shoot a lot of slugs. Just not much use for it here in my state for the most part unless hunting in a tree stand, or long range shooting which we do not do. However, I do have a Mossberg Slug gun and it does well with more than the standard yardage. But the again, slug or any ammo is not easy to find. I have taken down deer with a 20ga buckshot, but not my choice. Slugs in 20ga or in fact quite remarkable for accuracy and Kockdown at 100 yds or less. If I do use a Slug gun, it will be 20ga.
 
Do slugs recoil more than the same weight of birdshot at the same muzzle velocity? I suspect what makes target loads with an once and a quarter of birdshot lighter-recoiling is that they have less powder than the slugs. There are some pretty heavy-recoiling 2 1/4 ounce turkey loads, at 1200 fps. I bet they hit a lot harder than a typical 1 ounce slug at 1560 fps or even a 3" slug at 1700 fps. Back a few decades ago when I was a new adult, I had one of those turkey guns that I loaded with 18 pellets of 00 in a shell. I thought that made me a power. I would load my shells for trap the same way, with as much powder and shot as I could fit under the crimp. I don't know if I abused my shoulder or the Mossberg worse, but in the end it was the Mossberg that was loosest.
 
labnoti said:
Do slugs recoil more than the same weight of birdshot at the same muzzle velocity? I suspect what makes target loads with an once and a quarter of birdshot lighter-recoiling is that they have less powder than the slugs. There are some pretty heavy-recoiling 2 1/4 ounce turkey loads, at 1200 fps. I bet they hit a lot harder than a typical 1 ounce slug at 1560 fps or even a 3" slug at 1700 fps. Back a few decades ago when I was a new adult, I had one of those turkey guns that I loaded with 18 pellets of 00 in a shell. I thought that made me a power. I would load my shells for trap the same way, with as much powder and shot as I could fit under the crimp. I don't know if I abused my shoulder or the Mossberg worse, but in the end it was the Mossberg that was loosest.
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If it is the same weight and velocity, the recoil will be the same - that is Newton
 
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