"Blackwater lacked permits for dozens of automatic weapons"

[AndyC]

In that picture they clearly are brandishing weapons on a public street in a city in the United States of America.

"They"? "They" who? I think there's something wrong with your reading skills, friend. In that picture, it's NOPD SWAT who are "brandishing weapons on a public street in a city in the United States of America."



Let's look at that pic of "Blackwater" again, shall we?:

Now let's compare it with the real, unedited pic below as photographed by Rick Wilking of Reuters - amazing how the patches on the chests of both the guys with the raised AR15's were *cough* "edited" (the first pic of "BW" isn't even a good Photoshop job - pathetic, actually):

So, the question is - who benefits from the lie? Just like we ask of anti-gun folk - if their side is so honourable and righteous, why do they need to lie?

I however, will not tolerate them breaking our laws in our country when they are nothing but civilians brandishing weapons in the street like thugs. If they want to brandish weapons like that they can join the National Guard, police, or another US government agency that taxpayers fund and control.

And I would agree with you completely if that were the case - problem is, that's not BW. How about you find a real pic of BW in NO for us? Or would you prefer to stay on-topic and discuss the permit issue?

 

[yesit'sloaded]

http://www.blackwaterblogger.com/2007/09/katrina1.html

third pic down on the right is a blackwater guy next to a cop with an AR or M16

 

[yesit'sloaded]

http://www.blackwaterusa.com/press/katrina.asp

This is from Blackwater's own website.

 

[Zak Smith]

Reminder:

Legal forum is now for legal issues only. When giving advice, please endeavor to provide links or references to original documents, laws and other relevant resources. Please keep the topics related to guns and RKBA.

.. NOT FOR discussing the war, or who has "standing" to think any particular viewpoint. Keep it on-topic (in this case NFA law).

 

[Travis McGee]

SO, Yesitsloaded: Are you going to admit that the NOLA SWAT photo is a BOGUS photoshop/crop of "Blackwater" (not) in New Orleans?

What is your interest in spreading lies and disiformation here? Were you suckered by the fake photo, or do you not care, or what?

 

[Travis McGee]

(Here is the "damning" evidence, RIGHT FROM BLACKWATER'S OWN WEBSITE!!! LINKED ABOVE!!

It even shows a scary picture of a white helicopter sitting on the ground!

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

September 1, 2005

BLACKWATER JOINS HURRICANE KATRINA RELIEF EFFORT!

This morning (September 1, 2005), Blackwater USA joined the ongoing relief effort in the Gulf Region devastated by Hurricane Katrina by dispatching a SA-330J Puma helicopter to help assist in evacuating citizens from flooded areas.

Chairman and Chief Executive Officer Erik Prince stated, “At this time, all Americans should band together and assist our countrymen who have been struck by this natural disaster.”

The following services are available:



Airlift Services

Security Services

Communication Support

Crowd Control

Humanitarian Support Services

Logistics and Transportation Services



Anyone having a security or evacuation request may call (252) 435-2488.
All requests shall be prioritized and acted upon as quickly as possible.

 

[yesit'sloaded]

I admit that the picture shown above with the guys in black was faked, which does not change the fact that even Blackwater itself does not deny being in New Orleans. They were there and were acting as mercenaries to supplement the National Guard and police that were overwhelmed by the scope of the disaster. My only issue with this is that on OUR soil they have no more rights than any other citizen and have no legal means to brandish weapons on the streets.

 

[yesit'sloaded]

We all know what "Crowd Control" means. I'm sure they are unarmed when they control crowds

 

[JohnBT]

I see there are a number of folks posting who haven't looked up the definition of mercenary.

"one that serves merely for wages; especially : a soldier hired into foreign service"

 

[AndyC]

Gun nut? By advocating citizens take care of their own community I am a gun nut?

It would make my day if a private citizen that was lawfully carrying took him out.

Thats why some of us carry guns rather than rely on the police.

I don't live in Ohio."The right of every citizen to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person, or property, or in aid of the civil power when thereto legally summoned, shall not be called in question, but the legislature may regulate or forbid carrying concealed weapons."-Mississippi Constitution...

Don't post when you're toast, son.

 

[yesit'sloaded]

The only thing about this that bothers me is that they were acting as some sort of law enforcement when they have no more right to do so Than you or I. If it was on private property, big deal. I have friends who have hired Blackwater for that very reason and that doesn't bother me. I'm saying that it's a bad road to be down when we don't have the people to keep our own country safe, much less try and fight a war. Such a situation is why the DOD has to hire people under contract, they don't have the boots on the ground to do it themselves. "The right of every citizen to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person, or property, or in aid of the civil power when thereto legally summoned." Well that's all well and great if they were not confiscating guns from every other private citizen that didn't work for a private security firm.http://youtube.com/watch?v=-taU9d26wT4 Iraq is Iraq, and the US is the US. If you can prove to me reasonably that Blackwater was not in New Orleans, or if they were that they acted only as private security on private property, I will be fine with it and consider myself better informed and educated.

 

[Frog48]

third pic down on the right is a blackwater guy next to a cop with an AR or M16

You're missing the point! You have said yourself, they were with the police, they were NOT roaming around unaccompanied, raping and pillaging as people seem to think.

For all intents and purposes, they were acting under the oversight of local and federal law enforcement, much like a deputized posse would... The only difference is that they were compensated for their time and effort.

Is it ideal? No... but a hurricane wiping out a major city isnt exactly ideal either.

 

[AndyC]

Well that's all well and great if they were not confiscating guns from every other private citizen that didn't work for a private security firm. http://youtube.com/watch?v=-taU9d26wT4 Iraq is Iraq, and the US is the US. If you can prove to me reasonably that Blackwater was not in New Orleans, or if they were that they acted only as private security on private property, I will be fine with it and consider myself better informed and educated.

This is starting to become boring due to repetition.

You still have it wrong - police were confiscating firearms, including the ones in that video-clip - and no, I'm not doing your research for you. Nobody ever said BW wasn't in NO, not even BW themselves. You're the one who seems to think that they deny they were there - where you got that idea, lord knows.

What I'm saying is they didn't run around confiscating firearms from citizens. If you believe that they did, I challenge you find us one credible source that shows where/when BW ever confiscated a single firearm? And before you ask - Jeremy Scahill "evidence" will not be considered credible.

Now, I won't hold my breath, so let's get back on-topic - who has any news about the investigation into the automatic weapons allegations?

 

[yesit'sloaded]

I guess I'm more concerned with the fact that the government has to hire these guys because they can't do it by themselves which is the whole point of having a government in the first place. I know they don't deny they were in NO and I never said they were collecting weapons themselves. I pointed out that it was interesting that while every other citizen was having their guns taken, blackwater seemed immune to the practice. At this point I politely agree to disagree.

 

[carebear]

I pointed out that it was interesting that while every other citizen was having their guns taken, blackwater seemed immune to the practice. At this point I politely agree to disagree.

I'm not sure why it is "interesting" that people hired by the state to do a armed job are not then disarmed by the state.

In fact it seems crystal clear. If I hire a guy and his truck to, say, drive supplies in a disaster it is rather inane to question why I don't then take his particular truck away. It's part of the job he was hired to do. Where does "interesting" (meaning "suspicious" I'm sure ) come into it?

Now the police taking firearms from private citizens was in fact shown to be unlawful, but it is also has nothing to do with the state that hired those police also hiring additional security to provide extra manpower when needed.

Heck, even if that hiring was illegal, it still has nothing to do with the weapons seizures.

Apples and oranges.

 

[2RCO]

This thread has went way off the Gun topic and turned into why BW sux.

I had always wondered how the Private Security guys trained. Now I know they just ignored the law. Didn't know it was that easy. Someone seriously should get the book thrown at them if they were breaking the laws.

Here is another question Blackwater as a "regulated militia"? Just a thought and if so could RKBA apply to their training with Full Autos. If BW gets federal prosecution and it was overturned in the Courts due to RKBA it could be a major score for gun owners.

 

[carebear]

They don't have to "ignore the law" to train with full autos inside the US any more than everyone who shows up at Knob Creek has to.

They are a private corporation. Under existing law it is possible for private corporations to own FA firearms without any kind of special dispensation, under pretty much the same rules as private individuals.

It is also legal for said corporations to own private property (which BW does) and to allow their employees to shoot those corporately-owned FA firearms on that property.

If I'm not mistaken, it is even legal for corporations that own FA firearms to allow their employees and officers to carry said FA weapons off that private property, where not otherwise forbidden by law, just like all those other folks in the US who own FA's.

Furthermore, it is common and perfectly legal in most places in this country for a private property owner to authorize other private individuals or corporations to carry their weapons on the property owners premises (like the guy who owns the gun store can allow his workers to carry concealed at work without needing special permits). I'm sure some public agencies have similar legal abilities.

When you get down to it, it's a good thing that companies like Blackwater can conduct business inside the US with FA's, as almost any practical restriction on their ability to do the jobs for which they are legally hired would also likely end up applying to every other FA weapon owned in this country.

There are a lot of FA's in private hands actually held "corporately" but not by "big, bad, eeeevil security corporations". Should all those folks, your friends and neighbors, be restricted?

 

[Autolycus]

Thats all great Carebear but Blackwater broke the law and they should be put in jail.

 

[AndyC]

If they broke the law, I agree, absolutely - we don't yet know, and it's still innocent until proven guilty.

I'll be watching this with interest.

I guess I'm more concerned with the fact that the government has to hire these guys because they can't do it by themselves which is the whole point of having a government in the first place.

Yeah, it would be ideal if the gov't had enough people, but they didn't - and still don't. Wishing, however, obviously won't make it so - so instead we blame the guys that did show up and try to help because we've heard that they look scary?

I'm not attacking you - I'm just amused at how the logic seems similar to that of the gun-grabbers. "Ban it because it looks scary...ban them because we don't trust them - etc...". If they screw up, then nail them to the wall - not before they're proven to have screwed the pooch.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

So what exactly, and I do mean exactly, did BW do that was against actual laws? Not what did they do that you disagree with.

 

[yesit'sloaded]

Allegedly they smuggled unregistered machine guns into Iraq. Just another problem that comes up when you have to hire an army and expect them to equip themselves. I don't see why they did it, if they did. I thought full auto weapons were relatively easy to come by in Iraq since every insurgent seems to have an AK.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Alright. So what does that have to do with New Orleans?

 

[carebear]

Thats all great Carebear but Blackwater broke the law and they should be put in jail.

Allegedly broke the law (at this point).

But I agree. In fact my point was just that, other than these particular gun charges there's no reason to extrapolate (as many folks are doing) that the concept of private security companies is "eeeevil".

 

[carebear]

It's worth noting that BW are not, in Iraq or Afghanistan or most of the other places they work outside CONUS, technically, military contractors, which implies they are working for DOD, "doing jobs there aren't soldiers to do".

For the most part they work contract for the State Department, which is an important distinction. State has a limited number of Diplomatic Security Service agents and they are stretched thin even when this country is not fighting somewhere. When you have diplomats going into active combat zones (which is part of their job description) there just aren't enough agents to provide the needed security, hence armed contractors.

In many cases they aren't "replacing soldiers", they are doing jobs soldiers are not supposed to be doing. State and the military have different job descriptions and different methods, often times they have far different opinions on what needs to be done.

It is not that hard to see how diplomacy might be affected if our diplomats walk into a situation surrounded by armed soldiers, the implied threat of military action couldn't be avoided and would almost certainly impact negotiating, especially in parts of the world where the military runs the government.

Far better for the diplomats to be protected by civilian-dressed, non-overtly US military guards. And after all, the soldiers have better things to be doing than sheparding around State Dept. functionaries.

Where I see the problem isn't the concept of the State Dept. hiring a Blackwater, it's that they apparently aren't exerting enough positive control over their contractor's actions. Laying down the law on how they will dress and act while doing their jobs.

It seems as if the employees are running the show.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

That's a great point carebear.