"Blackwater lacked permits for dozens of automatic weapons"

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"I guess I'm more concerned with the fact that the government has to hire these guys because they can't do it by themselves which is the whole point of having a government in the first place. "

I don't see it. I don't understand your logic. My city hires private contractors to repair sewers, trim trees and umpteen other things. It saves us/me tax dollars by not having full-time employees to support for years on end. They're only used when they're needed. Why should the feds be any different. Well they're not, they've always used contractors for one thing or another.

John
 
carebear said:
Where I see the problem isn't the concept of the State Dept. hiring a Blackwater, it's that they apparently aren't exerting enough positive control over their contractor's actions. Laying down the law on how they will dress and act while doing their jobs.

It seems as if the employees are running the show.
How to dress is a minor issue by itself and largely depends on whether the team is running overt or covert operations - to me, dress is negotiable and largely a minor issue. "How they act" is where we could run into a problem, and that's the whole "Master vs Servant" issue.

Close-protection personnel are normally servants - they serve (and obviously protect) their principal, the person being shepherded. However, when it comes to the principal's safety, the team-leader of the CP team says what goes - the servant becomes the master, if you like. That's just how it works, and all prospective principals are briefed (if the team is professional) on this possibility and why it's important - it's critical that the principal understand that it might occur. One could argue whether being in Iraq is, in itself, enough excuse for the team to give orders all the time...

A principal tells me where he needs to be and when - it's my job to determine how exactly we get there in one piece and on time, not his.
 
Andy,

Good points. The distinction in this instance is that State has it's own professionals (the DSS agents) who should be setting the policy for their contract employees. If the contractors don't like being told what to do they are free to not take the contract.

I expect a government agency with access to protection professionals (SS, USMS, DSS etc.) to have the capability to run the show and use the contractors simply as adjuncts, especially since their actions reflect on the Dept. of State itself.

As far as clothing goes, I agree. For a diplomatic role I want guys dressed professionally and discretely, whenever possible, not like Brigade Quartermasters cover models.

There's no more reason for a State Dept. protective detail to look like a SWAT team all the time than there is for the average street cop. The image I'm getting is the BW guys tend to want to be "geared up" and "badA" all the time. Some of my friends over there say they can tend toward a "cowboy" mentality. That sort of thing needs to have the kibosh put on it by State and an enforced dress code would probably help.
 
*chuckle* You have no idea how much I agree, carebear.

I doubt State has enough staff on their own, hence the use of contractors (I tend to think the meal is larger than our bellies, but hey - we just play the cards we're dealt).

There are a number of practical aspects to the clothing, but yep - there's a high risk of a newbie becoming so enchanted with the gear itself that a cowboy-mentality can easily occur - the sure badge of an amateur. This can, however, be taken care of via peer-pressure, professionalism and maturity - and imposed discipline, self- or otherwise ;)
 
Some of my friends over there say they can tend toward a "cowboy" mentality. That sort of thing needs to have the kibosh put on it by State and an enforced dress code would probably help.

It's not the clothing that makes a cowboy. Maybe reducing the amount of
alcohol at the IZ liquor store and having some form of rules similar to the
UCMJ would be a good start.
 
Sep 28, 2007

Weapons sent to Iraq poorly tracked

Richard Lardner, The Associated Press

WASHINGTON - As President Bush and Democratic challenger Sen. John Kerry clashed in late 2004 over the Iraq war, a rising Army star joined the debate.

Then-Lt. Gen. David Petraeus, head of a new command overseeing the training and equipping of Iraq's security forces, said headway was being made.

Tens of thousands of rifles, pistols, body armor, vehicles, and radios, along with millions of ammunition rounds, had been delivered to Iraqis over three months, he wrote in a commentary for The Washington Post six weeks before the election.

The weapons and countless pieces of other gear, paid for with tens of millions of U.S. tax dollars, were flowing, but not always to the right places or into the right hands. In the rush to arm Iraqis against a violent insurgency, U.S. military officials did not keep good records. About 190,000 weapons weren't fully accounted for, according to one audit.

The accounting failures are at the heart of a broad inquiry by the Pentagon's inspector general, sharp questions from Republicans and Democrats in Congress, and complaints from officials in Turkey who say pistols used in violent crimes in their country came from U.S.-funded stocks.

'Spartan conditions'

Peter Velz, a Pentagon official specializing in Iraq, said Petraeus' command was operating under "extremely difficult, Spartan conditions" and needed more personnel experienced in contracting and materiel management.

The training command had about 900 people in 2004, according to a command spokesman, and now has 1,100.

There is no evidence of wrongdoing by Petraeus, now a four-star general and the top U.S. officer in Iraq. And there is no indication that he is the subject of any of the inspector general's inquiries. His commentary, however, is a reminder of how even cautiously optimistic assessments of the war can turn with time.

In June 2004, Petraeus took over the just-formed Multinational Security Transition Command-Iraq, or MNSTC-I (min-sticky). The organization's job is to train Iraqi army and police units to operate on their own. Petraeus has likened the experience to "building an aircraft that was already in flight."

Given the rising strength of the insurgency at the time, Petraeus felt it was more important to get weapons and ammunition to troops in the fight "than to wait for a signature on a hand receipt," Army Col. Steven Boylan, Petraeus' top spokesman, said Tuesday by e-mail.

Petraeus left the post in September 2005. Since then, audits have cited the Iraq transition command for lack of oversight.

An audit in October by the special inspector general for Iraq reconstruction said there was "questionable accuracy" and "incomplete accountability" in the way MNSTC-I managed weapons. In one case, 751 assault rifles were purchased, but there is no record of their delivery to Iraq's ministries of defense and interior.

More recently, the U.S. Government Accountability Office said until December 2005, MNSTC-I had no centralized set of records for shipping weapons to Iraqi forces.

The command said 185,000 Russian-designed AK-47 rifles, 170,000 pistols, 215,000 sets of body armor, and 140,000 helmets had been issued to Iraq troops by September 2005, according to the July GAO report. But due to incomplete record-keeping, the command couldn't be certain whether the Iraqis received 110,000 of the rifles, or 80,000 of the pistols. More than half of the body armor and helmets couldn't be tracked.

"There clearly has been a lack of guidance to MNSTC-I on what accountability requirements apply to them," Velz said at a House Armed Services Committee hearing last week.

Blackwater probe

Federal investigators are also examining whether employees of Blackwater USA, one of the largest private security firms in Iraq, played a role in the loose arms problem by selling weapons on the black market that ended up in the hands of a U.S.-designated terrorist organization.

Turkish officials have complained to the United States that they had seized weapons from the PKK, a Kurdish militant group, with markings matching those intended for Iraqi forces.

Blackwater has denied involvement in weapons smuggling and called the allegations "baseless."

Lawmakers who received a classified briefing from the inspector general last week expressed concern that U.S. troops might be injured or killed by firepower the United States purchased.

If "there is a wholesale movement of weapons that U.S. taxpayers have paid for into the hands of those who would do us harm or further destabilize the region, we must make resolving this problem one of our top priorities," Rep. Duncan Hunter, R-Calif., said at the Sept. 20 House Armed Services hearing.

Thomas Gimble, the Pentagon's deputy inspector general, said his office has 90 open investigations stemming from nearly $6 billion in contracts for supplies and equipment needed in Iraq and Afghanistan.
 
There is a need for companies like Blackwater because the US military had its guts cut out in the 1990s: Eight Army divisions were eliminated. There are not enough troops for all the wars and feel good operations that the US is involved in throughout the world. i think that the charge that Blackwater smuggled F/A weapons into Iraq is grasping at straws.

The US would be hard pressed to put together one fully equipped Army division in an emergency.
 
BW acts the way it does, baddest on the block, to ensure the principal they're hired to protect stays alive. If the guy or gal they guard is killed, they failed their mission and why hire them in the future if they can't do the job?

The bottom line is this-if the U.S. can't or won't set ground rules for the security firms to follow, and can't supervise them with Government personnel, then pull out soliders and Marines from combat to do the protecting or train and use sailors and airman to take the security firms place.
 
Smuggling MGs into Iraq? It's equivalent to importing cocaine to Colombia, or smuggling in Lorcins to a LA SWAT arsenal. The idea of charging somebody for that is... ridiculous to say the least. Sounds more like a feel-good measure for the Iraqis and Libs in the US.


But as per the article:

Government looks into possible smuggling to Iraq
Then:
Two sources familiar with the investigation said that prosecutors are looking at whether Blackwater lacked permits for dozens of automatic weapons used at its training grounds in Moyock
Grasping at straws here?
 
"Smuggling MGs into Iraq? It's equivalent to importing cocaine to Colombia, or smuggling in Lorcins to a LA SWAT arsenal. The idea of charging somebody for that is... ridiculous to say the least. Sounds more like a feel-good measure for the Iraqis and Libs in the US."

Very good post. It is just more trumped up trash to placate some panjandrum who wants to be placated.
 
Geronimo45: Who are the Libs?

And your second quote
Two sources familiar with the investigation said that prosecutors are looking at whether Blackwater lacked permits for dozens of automatic weapons used at its training grounds in Moyock...

Well if it was you and your buddies at the local gun club with dozens of automatic weapons used at your range, would you be ok with it? I think they are doing their job by investigating Blackwater. If Blackwater is breaking the law and using illegal machineguns to train their employees that is no different then me and my friends using illegal machineguns to train ourselves.
 
If my information is correct, BW have 07 Manufacturer FFL & type 10 (Manufacturer of Destructive Devices) status plus SOT - so they could manufacture all the full-auto weapons they like, the way I understand it.

Or am I wrong?
 
Geronimo45: Who are the Libs?
Oh, the folk that see Blackwater as the antichrist, the new National Socialists, Dick Cheney's stormtroopers, Halliburton Hit-Squad... DU, mainly.

Well if it was you and your buddies at the local gun club with dozens of automatic weapons used at your range, would you be ok with it?
Yes, but I'm not BATFE. It doesn't look like an ongoing investigation - just something trumped up to give Blackwater bad press. A feel-good measure for the anti-BW folks. How long does it take to look up a semi-auto rifle? Quite a while, methinks. But a full-auto? I can't believe that it would take more than 24 hours to check out those guns. It smells like pure politics from here.

You could do a similar 'investigation' on me, and say that I was possibly in possession of guns stolen from the estate of Elvis Presley. It's pure gossip.

As for weapons charges that some of the BW people are pleading guilty to - I recall that that was a tactic used by Capone. When publicity got too bad, he got himself jailed on weapons charges to appease the public.
 
9-29-07

State Dept. investigators threatened, Waxman says

Blackwater probe at center of uproar

Warren P. Strobel, McClatchy Newspapers

WASHINGTON - Aides to State Department Inspector General Howard Krongard threatened two investigators with retaliation this week if they cooperate with a congressional probe into Krongard's office, the chairman of a House of Representatives panel and other U.S. officials said Friday.

The allegations are the latest in a growing uproar surrounding Krongard. Current and former officials in his office charge that he impeded investigations into alleged arms smuggling by employees of the North Carolina-based private security firm Blackwater and into faulty construction of the new U.S. Embassy in Baghdad.

Krongard has denied the charges and is due to appear before the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee next month.

In a statement sent by e-mail to reporters Friday, his office said it was cooperating with investigators.

"The Office of the Inspector General has cooperated with and will continue to cooperate with the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee's investigation," the statement said. "Furthermore, the OIG will continue to make any OIG employee available to speak with the committee, if they choose."

The probe into Krongard's office is being led by Rep. Henry Waxman, D-Calif., the chairman of the House oversight committee.

The two investigators said they were threatened with retaliation -- perhaps including losing their jobs -- if they cooperated, Waxman said in a letter to Krongard.

According to the letter, Krongard's congressional liaison told one of the two, Special Agent Ronald A. Militana, "Howard can fire you. It would affect your ability to get another job."

In a telephone interview, Militana confirmed that he has filed a complaint with Waxman's panel and said the congressman's letter quoted him accurately. He declined to comment further.

Militana and the other investigator, Assistant Special Agent in Charge Brian Rubendall, were among those pressing for an investigation into whether employees of Blackwater were illegally shipping automatic weapons and other military goods to Iraq without a license. Rubendall couldn't be reached for comment.

The News & Observer reported last week that two Blackwater employees have pleaded guilty in Greenville, N.C., to weapons charges and are cooperating with federal officials.

Blackwater, which has received roughly $835 million in State Department contracts, mostly to guard U.S. civilians in Iraq, is under intense scrutiny after a series of violent incidents involving its contractors. In the most recent, Blackwater teams were involved in a shooting at a busy Baghdad traffic circle Sept.16 that killed 11 Iraqis.

According to an e-mail message obtained by Waxman's committee, Krongard intervened when federal prosecutors asked for help from his office in investigating the Blackwater arms-smuggling allegations.

The investigations division of the inspector general's office "is directed to stop IMMEDIATELY any work on these contracts until I receive a briefing from the [assistant U.S. attorney] regarding the details of this investigation. SA Militana, ASAIC Rubendall and any others involved are to be directed by you not to proceed in any manner until the briefing takes place," Krongard wrote to a subordinate July 11.

Krongard denied those allegations Sept. 18 and said he'd made "one of my best investigators" available to help the Justice Department.

That investigator, Waxman wrote Friday, was Militana.
 
Unfortunately, this isn't a surprise. Frankly, I'm surprised that anyone is surprised. This is the way things have been going now for the last 5 years intensively, and a good 20-odd years at a fairly low scale, and it's only going to get worse. Heck, it's the tradition of humanity to do things like this.

Folks, we're moving towards a global corporate feudalism. That's one possible future we face, aside from the 'global caliphate' and "China dominated" options. We've gone beyond national alliegances as a world. It started to become evident shortly after the cold war, but with Russia's resurgence as a world power and China getting an even larger stranglehold on the world economy, and with many large corporations having a larger GDP than most small countries, it's not really about the US in Iraq; it's about the companies, and their competing interests, manipulating governments to their own means.
 
I stayed away for this site for a while, with moving and stuff.. However I feel really compelled to tell "my story".

I have 3 different close friends of whom two are back from the middle east already. I've spent lots of time with them, and they have plenty of spoils of war. They do things that most of my friends in special forces have done for years (it's not a diss, or a judgement, just a fact). They steal weapons and supplies every chance they get and collect money, and "collectables" from overseas. They came in and out on transport plans and would pack their "missing in action" toys into crates or in the rucksack when getting on military plane back to the states.

Blackwater has an extremely low mortality rate. My friend says generally because the "unwritten" rule is shoot first, don't ask question. One of my friends is a completely different person now. He spent several years in army on high risk assignments, in which he has killed people before, however he said with blackwater right out of the gate they would often just shoot people, that might get close to him. He describes an incident in which a loud bang occurred and everyone is his bradley stopped and just opened fired on everything in site that wasn't in camos. He said at first he was a bothered by it, but after a while he said there was so much to be afraid of that he to joined in killing people that normally he would arrest, question, or leave alone. He says after a while it didn't bother him anymore, it was just part of life, which I DO understand. Now that he is back in the states in a world where you don't go around shooting people, he says he has much more guilt about it.

I believe he says he trained with blackwater for only 6 weeks, but because of his military background only 4 of them were intensive training and mostly stuff he already knew. He said they best thing about Blackwater is they actually get modern weapons that the DoD takes years to review and approve.

He said there were also many times the military command would ask blackwater to carry out assignments that would well know to be risk and kill civilians because it wouldn't reflect directly on the military.

Blackwater is what the DoD uses to do stuff that isn't politically correct all the time.

All of my 3 friends who served, have automatic weapons in their US homes without permits. My friend never asked about permits during training, he just assumed that the goverment had things worked out, not really his area.

Based on what I know from my friends who worked at Blackwater I feel a bit bad for them and at the same time disgusted.

Blackwater is in Iraqi because the DoD realized it could use them to take care of stuff, have elite weapons, and use less caution in regards to civilians. It's the reason I think in 3+ years blackwater has lost less than 10 people. (i believe that's what my friend said)

He says the Iraqi people and others fear them because they all believe that seeing a blackwater employee and not us military means you are going to be dead.

All of my friends with Blackwater describe doing things they regret, and killing children who didn't have anything to do with a situation.

I feel bad though, because all of them are torn up about some of the stuff they did, (won't tell their parents of family), but they said it doesn't feel nearly as bad when overseas. It's a different world, and your outlook on human life changes, it becomes objectified in ways you can't imagine. People get disgusted by soldiers who take pictures with corpses and laugh, but I actually understand it. After a while human life takes on a different form, it isn't that the soldiers are horrible monsters it is just that they are surrounded by nothing but death and weapons. After a while, it's not any big deal. One of my friends said after a while it wasn't any different than shooting deer, and that he said is the part that scares him the most, is that it no longer has any affect on him.

With the weapons he claims that everyone especially the military has lots of "missing in action" reports for firearms that soldiers keep.

He also said when he arrived in the middle east they were taken to a small meeting that his CO said never happened. In the meeting the CO encouraged them to be generous with their bullets as it will ensure survival.

He also mentions times when they would play with big weapons and fire them at houses that they knew nothing about but would later claim they were shot at.

I know that my friends did some horrible things, but they are still my friends, and if anything (i know it might be wrong I feel sorry for them) they are just kids, and now they have seen death, and horrors that change you. My friend still says that he feels unsafe in the US because he can't carry firearms around and just shoot people.... I don't know what the right answer is but I'm sure on some levels Blackwater is corrupt, and he agrees, he says everyone if they haven't themselves has shot civilians who weren't provoked or know somebody who has.

I think Blackwater needs to exercise more discretion. But the DoD should be held responsible for purposely hiring groups they knew they could use to skirt the rules of war.

This is further evident by the fact that the DoD is now giving many of Blackwater's contracts in Iraqi to other (non-USA) companies because they know that these non-american companies can't be touched by congress or any new laws that might arise. So many mercenaries are now joining other companies who are not headquartered in the US, which gives them more immunity.

I don't want anything to happen to my friends, it's bad enough that my 19 year old friend is scarred for life, I just don't think prison is the right answer, no matter how young someone he shot was...

War is ugly, and I think the DoD should accept responsibility for this, and just admit that really bad things do happen.

I don't know, I guess I'm conflicted....

Anyone else have experience with Blackwater?
 
Oh and FYI I don't think Blackwater pays that much. My friends were in one of the higher pay grades and made 65k/year.

For California that's not alot. I have a good job, and average about 120k/year in Santa Clara with 2 months of vacation and working 2 days a week at home.

A normal job back here for somebody in that line of work could get 80k for private (rich people) security here in silicon valley
 
I'm sure you'll agree with me. We need PMCs no matter how much we don't like it. But we need them in times of war. Just like kids don't like vegetables. But they need to eat them. No matter how much we dislike it. We need them.

Our armed forces aren't big enough to fight this war by themselves. We need them. Whats going on over there is no different to whats happening at home. People shooting at each other. Women and children dieing for no reason. At least over there they are fighting for a good reason. Here they are fighting for drugs, money and to be on top. Now which sounds better? Both conflicts involve guns. Both involve killing of innocents. Both involve people being tortured.

Hey i don't know about you guys. But id rather hear about dead Iraqis than dead allied soldiers. The Black Water soldiers are going through allot of ****. Just like our soldiers. So don't be so quick to judge them. I have allot of respect for them. How many of u can say that u could do their job. They don't go to an office everyday day and sit on there asses filing forms. Or serving customers. They are crawling in the mud, being shot at, watching their friends die. If it wasn't for them. You would be crawling in the mud, being shot at and watching your friends dieing.

And if you have a problem with that. Then get off your fat ass and do something about it. Instead of sitting on your chair whining about it to other people. Write a letter, tell the press, start a protest. You aren't going to accomplish anything making blogs and telling other ****** bags sitting on their comps whining about it too. SO TOUGHEN UP PRINCESS AND GET OVER IT.

If u want to lose American lives. Then take their guns. But i guaranty that when an American soldier (or any non-insurgent soldier for that matter) is captured. He will get no mercy from the Iraqis. He will be tortured, he will be killed and paraded as a trophy. And u say that Black Water is bad? At least Black Water doesn't plant roadside bombs. Or torture Iraqis and hang them up for all to see. Just keep that in mind next time u say something about how "bad" Mercenaries are.
 
Blackwater are mercenaries, plain and simple. If it wasnt for them, someone else would be crawling in the mud.

Why dont you go over there and crawl in the mud? I dont want to lose American lives, that is why I want to end this senseless war.

I smell a troll.
 
Foxer
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Join Date: 01-13-08
Posts: 1


The Black Water soldiers are....

Soldiers? I thought they are just security? Oh wait, they are money sucking dirt bags who don't fight for honor, they fight for the highest bidder.
 
I don't think folks realize that there are 100,000 private contractors there. Half the force in that country, guess what. This country needs to institute a Draft, before the crap hits the fan. The reason they "overlook" certain things, is because they have to. look up Tripple Canopy aside from Blackwater, they are even protecting some of our top Brass. Now maybe it all starts to make sense, we don't have a military force large enough to take care of most situations, we can bomb them into submission, but now you need an occupying force, Duh, that's why guys are going back when they get out, now they are trained, and they can cash in a thousand per day plus no tax after 90 days, and plenty of percs.
 
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