Boston Logan airport cops get SMGs!!

[robear]

http://boston.com/dailyglobe2/164/metro/Logan_getting_weapons_upgrade+.shtml

Apologies if this has been posted already, I did a quick scan an didn't see anything..

Some pretty ignorant stuff in this one.. oh well, par for the course..

Logan getting weapons upgrade

Police are issued submachine guns

By Mac Daniel, Globe Staff, 6/13/2003

Submachine guns, long a common sight in many European airports, made their debut yesterday at Logan Airport, which has spent more than 11/2 years bolstering its security and image after becoming the takeoff point for two of the planes hijacked by terrorists in the Sept. 11 attacks.

Massport purchased 30 of the submachine guns, at a cost of $2,500 each, deploying them with the new State Police antiterrorism unit and making Logan the first airport in the nation to bring such high-tech weaponry to its terminals, roadways, curbs, and ramps.

''It's another tool, if you will, in our toolbox that allows us to make this a safer airport,'' said Major Tom Robbins, who heads State Police Troop F at Logan, where officers are handling the weapons after extensive training.

Each MD5SD weighs 7 pounds and has a long, built-in silencer that the manufacturer says is designed to be so effective that the sound of the bullet firing will make less noise than the clicking of the firing mechanism.

Robbins said he didn't think it would be that quiet, but said the silencer feature was a key component sought by the State Police to help mute the alarm caused if the guns have to be fired inside the airport's buildings. ''If it was shot in a terminal, the report would be very soft ... and that would create less panic,'' he said.

The sound suppressor also reduces the amount of fire emitted by the barrel, Robbins said, which is important if the gun had to be fired outside on the ramps or tarmac, where a flame could set off highly flammable jet fuel.

MP5SD submachine guns were used by German commandos in their 1977 raid on a hijacked Lufthansa airliner in Somalia, and by British special forces when they liberated the Iranian Embassy in London after a 1980 takeover.

If one of the submachine guns is fired at Logan, however, it would probably be a first at the airport. Phil Orlandella, Massport spokesman, said he could not recall a weapon of any kind being discharged inside Logan in his 23 years on the job.

While Logan is the first to acquire these guns, Robbins predicted that other airports throughout the nation will soon follow.

''It's also something that we want to put out there so that when terrorists come to this airport to conduct surveillance on things that they might want to do here, that it acts as a deterrent,'' he said.

Yesterday, the only troopers carrying the weapons in Terminal C were serving less as a deterrent than as a backdrop to the Massport news conference on the weapons. Most passengers interviewed welcomed the change.

''I actually feel safer simply because I know I can get to a safe place and have heavy cover,'' said Marian Diedrich-Wu, 41, of Brighton, who served in the Air Force.

''We need heavy cover,'' she said, pointing to the guns.

The MD5SD is an ominous-looking weapon that can fire a single 9mm round, or, with the flip of a switch, fire two rounds with a single pull of the trigger. It is highly accurate over long distances and will not fire a volley of uninterrupted bullets - something State Police wanted to avoid in crowded terminals.

Colin Andrews, 47, a British concert organist who now lives in Greenville, N.C., said at Logan yesterday that ''in Heathrow or Gatwick, to see a policeman with a semi-automatic weapon is normal. It means to me that there's a heightened state of vigilance.''

But Peggy Lucas-Taylor, 72, of Lehigh Acres, Fla., wasn't so sure.

''They should have something, but not necessarily a machine gun,'' she said. ''I think a machine gun would do more harm than good. It's such a big weapon. Maybe some of that pepper spray? Or a stun gun? I don't know.''

This story ran on page B4 of the Boston Globe on 6/13/2003.
© Copyright 2003 Globe Newspaper Company.

 

[Devonai]

But Peggy Lucas-Taylor, 72, of Lehigh Acres, Fla., wasn't so sure.

"I'm an idiot," she said. "I don't know a thing about firearms or self defense, but the Globe needed to quote an idiot so here I am."

What a crock. Did anybody mention that these "big scary machine guns" are firing a sub-sonic round that couldn't penetrate level IIA Kevlar, easily purchased from any number of civilian sources?

 

[Telperion]

''It's another tool, if you will, in our toolbox that allows us to make this a safer airport,'' said Major Tom Robbins, who heads State Police Troop F at Logan, where officers are handling the weapons after extensive training.

Troop F, hmm...

This is a bit of dupe: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20915

 

[CZ-75]

It was posted around a month ago, but a fresh discussion would be nice.

 

[TarpleyG]

high-tech weaponry

What's so "high-tech" about technology that has been around since the Al Capone days. Oh, I forgot, it's matte black, not blued, so it MUST be "high-tech" or "tactical", right? That must be it.

GT

 

[voilsb]

no no, they really need those MP5s to defend against passengers who refuse to part with their fingernail clippers

 

[Blain]

Why would they want to spend 2.5k per MP5 when they already has superior ARs? Just to waste my money? Oh well, at least this downgrades their firepower. I'd rather them have these than ARs, would be easier to fight against MP5s than ARs.

 

[Standing Wolf]

Each MD5SD weighs 7 pounds and has a long, built-in silencer that the manufacturer says is designed to be so effective that the sound of the bullet firing will make less noise than the clicking of the firing mechanism.

Click, click, click, click, click, click, click.

 

[FPrice]

I think this came up because they now have them and are using them on duty. The local TV stations had some pics last week...looks like they also use a mag-clip or something similar to attach a second magazine along side the first.

 

[c_yeager]

Personally i dont have a problem with people carrying the maximium amount of fire power possible in any given situation. But, really i think im missing the need for SD aspect of the MP5SD in this application. Arent silenced weapons more appropriate to offensive operations? Like when you want to be able to engage an enemy without warning the whole country side. Defensively it would seem to be a dissadvantage. I can just picture some poor SOB with a broken radio firing his weapon with none of his backup even having a clue as to what was going on. It just doesnt seem to add up.

 

[Sergeant Bob]

Robbins said he didn't think it would be that quiet, but said the silencer feature was a key component sought by the State Police to help mute the alarm caused if the guns have to be fired inside the airport's buildings. ''If it was shot in a terminal, the report would be very soft ... and that would create less panic,'' he said.

Presumeably they need this kind of firepower, with silencers, to fight armed terrorists (since it wouldn't be very effective against a terrorist strapped with explosives and a dead man switch). In which case, it wouldn't be any more effective than a sidearm. I wonder if the terrorists got the memo about using silencers so as not to panic the people in the terminals?

The sound suppressor also reduces the amount of fire emitted by the barrel, Robbins said, which is important if the gun had to be fired outside on the ramps or tarmac, where a flame could set off highly flammable jet fuel.

Jet fuel doesn't really care if you use a Bic or a blowtorch.

 

[Blain]

They have silencers too? Wow.....this is wrong....I don't know about you guys, but something doens't add up...

 

[TheeBadOne]

If (god forbid) a loud gun was fired off in an airport you'd start a stampede of people that would be horrendous, creating it's own problem and compounding any that you were trying to deal with in the first place.

 

[Fly320s]

The sound suppressor also reduces the amount of fire emitted by the barrel, Robbins said, which is important if the gun had to be fired outside on the ramps or tarmac, where a flame could set off highly flammable jet fuel.

Yeah, I hate walking on the ramp and having to dodge the huge pools of Jet A.

 

[CZ-75]

As has been alluded, the terrorists know that bringing firearms to the airport is going to be hard, so subguns are an answer to a threat that doesn't exist.
You can't stop a bomb or a biological agent with subguns, only armed terrorists using firearms.

 

[Don Gwinn]

Nice story. Actually, although subguns are nothing new, I think you could make the case that an MP5SD is a high-tech subgun.

The lady quoted is indeed a moron. She doesn't like the MP5 because it's so big? What did she think of the National Guardsmen with 20" barreled A2s? Pepper spray to replace a submachine gun?


Also, I doubt 9mm subgun ammo is subsonic.

 

[Sir Galahad]

Blain appreciate the downgrade in firepower as it makes it easier to fight them one day. Note to Blain: It isn't prudent to post things about fighting the government and/or their emmissaries on the internet that their tools Carnivore and Echelon actively monitor. You also posted just getting a permit or permission to buy a handgun in another post. Bingo. They already know who you are and where you live. The revolution will never start because everyone talking about it will already be whisked away to camps where they will be forced to watch Brady Bunch re-runs (in particular, the one where the Bradys sing and make a record, even though Peter's voice is cracking), subsist on store-brand fish sticks (without ketchup) and macaroni-and-cheese (not Kraft, but the revolting elbow version with watery cheese), and listen to Perry Como records played backwards (played backwards, Perry Como records say, "Mlurp, mlurp, walump, you too will become one with the Fed, mlurp, wallomp, none shall pass, wallump, mwurp, all shall kneel before the Fed, wallump, lurp, all shall love the Fed and despair, lollump, lorp...")

 

[Sir Galahad]

Oh, and I almost forgot. The ringleaders of the revolution will get the "special treatment" at the camp. They will be forced to watch re-runs of the Partridge Family and the old Mazola, Oscar Mayer, and Miracle Whip commercials. How can they force you to watch it? Seen Clockwork Orange? Also, they will be reduced to subsisting on Linda McCartney frozen vegetarian dinners and pimento loaf and sweet pickle sandwiches made with 7 grain bread and Miracle Whip and have to listen to "New Kids On The Block" 24 hours a day on overhead speakers. So, mark you well the things you speak here, for the All-Seeing Eye of Fedus is watching.

 

[brownie0486]

Don Gwinn: I waited to hear from someone on the subsonic statement. You are correct, of course.

The mp5sd some of the boys [ not all ] were issued at troop F recently is old news. The latest subguns were just issued more of the initial shipment to the troopers which were months ago.

The trooprs need to be trained in basic tactics as well as the correct operation of the subguns before they are issued them while on duty. That takes time and money, logistics on shifts being covered, etc.

Sir Galahad: The mp5sd is not a downgrade from their pistols [ their standard issued equipment ].
On the contrary, they are a serious upgrade and what is needed where large groups of people gather.

Precise controlled fire is paramount where herds of people are intertwined with targets appearing randomly amoungst innocent civilans. As they are shoulder fired, and have the capability to be more accurate this is a good thing for us who travel. European countries have had these weapons in place at their airports a long time. They have been there for over a decade, maybe two. 9-11 changed that for us as well.

Fly320s: I think a more likely scenario he was talking about would be something along the lines of jet fuel all over the area including fumes. Then having a dogfight at the tarmac near or under the plane while it is boarding passengers into the plane. If the fuel ignites under the plane would you want to be in it as a passenger?
How about one of the ground crew caught in the middle of something. I think it was an afterthought on his part and not the main reason they are using the sd's.

CZ-75: Scenario: A few terrorists are caught inside the terminal. They have knives [ again ].
They immediately take hostages as shields. Those in the immediate vacinity hear dunshots and rush to cover or exits creating major confusion, noise, distractions and grave danger. A trooper properly trained with an mp-5sd will be able to shoot the terrorist in the head from 20 yrds, anything closer is cake.

Because the weapon was suppressed, they had no guns [ your scenario ]most would not hear, if they were 10 feet out, the mp5sd doing it's job. Less panic, less stampeding, less danger of another getting into crossfires.

As their previously issued duty weapons are pistols and most people I know won't attempt a head shot at 20 yrds or 3 yds with pistols for fearing of killing the hostage and they are not suppressed.
One can stop efficiently accurately and quietly.
One can not do these things[ their duty pistols ]
let me ask you,
Is there a need/benefit for them at the terminals?

TheeBadOne: Very astute.

Blain: Somethings wrong? What doesn't add up? Please explain these comments about the troopers carrying suppressed mp5's. AR's are not as reliable. When the miltypes were watching the gates they had .223 rounds. That is a danger to civilians in tight quarters due to over penetration. The mp5sd shoots 9mm and can put the first two in one hole and a thrid 1 inch high and a tad off center. And it's relatively easy. AR's are not superior in that venue.

c_yeager: see above. It's a great weapons platform that has been used succesfully against terrorists all over the world. Yes, it's used offensively by elite mil types suppressed and by swat types in hostage rescue for many reasons. I find it hard to believe you can't see a defensive role for this weapon as well. I can assure you they know how to use their radios. I won't explain the system they use here.

FPrice: It's a mag clamp, holds two mags side by side just far enough apart to allow it's use in the weapon. A good time on mag changes with these is 1 second on that platform. I've seen some who are subsecond and you can't really tell if they changed mags if they are doing three round bursts.

Standing Wolf: Hence the ten feet in my posting above. Thats correct. You hear the bolt moving back and forth. In a hotel room with an sd shooting phone books no one would hear you in the next room even if it was a cheap motel and the walls were paper thin.

TarpleyG: The H+K roller lock gas system incorporated in that series of weapons was not around during Capones days. It's as high tech as you get right now and they've been around fro awhile. It's a superior subgun chosen by professionals who do the kinds of things others talk about with no knowledge of the weapon. Thats why GW is protected by them.

Devonai: Don't put a vest on and try your theory sir. We'll never see another post from you.

Any other questions about why the tropers carry what they have now?

Brownie

 

[No4Mk1*]

$2500 seems a lot for a 9mm with two shot burst. Maybe it is a bit more complex than a sten, but $2500??? Sounds like a fine gun though.
Sometimes panic is a very good thing. As has been eluded to, a shootout with a gang of AKM toting terrorists seems less likely than police engaging one walking suicide bomber. If the police begin to shoot a suicide bomber who is standing 20 feet behind you, would you prefer them to be using a silenced weapon so you would just stand there or something nice and loud that might envoke panic? Besides as has already been said, if the bad guys are using firearms, panic will ensue anyways.

 

[cordex]

brownie0486,
I hope you'll excuse our jealousy.

Personally, I don't think it's necessary, but it doesn't bother me in the least. I think suppressed weapons should be available to an airport security team. Just not sure they need all of their long-arms to be suppressed. But they've got to spend all that neat Fed funding, right? Might as well get all the cool features you can on the guns.

Scenario: A few terrorists are caught inside the terminal. They have knives [ again ].
They immediately take hostages as shields. Those in the immediate vacinity hear dunshots and rush to cover or exits creating major confusion, noise, distractions and grave danger. A trooper properly trained with an mp-5sd will be able to shoot the terrorist in the head from 20 yrds, anything closer is cake.

Are gas masks, flashbangs, tear gas, bomb disposal gear, and door breaching charges issued along with the MP5SDs? Seems like they could also have potential uses. All about risk management, I guess. If your airport is more likely to be stormed by a team of Renaissance Fair Commandos than having some loner try use a bleach and ammonia mix to give you trouble then I think you are appropriately prepared. *grin*

If only I could go out and buy one. Even for the inflated price of $2,500. Yummy. (I assume that $2,500 included some serious service agreements, right?)

When the miltypes were watching the gates they had .223 rounds. That is a danger to civilians in tight quarters due to over penetration. The mp5sd shoots 9mm and can put the first two in one hole and a thrid 1 inch high and a tad off center.

Well now, there's some contention as to the issue of overpenetration between .223 and 9mm. Haven't done the tests myself, but I've heard both ways. Nice that you can get quick follow up shots, though.

 

[CZ-75]

Is there a need/benefit for them at the terminals?

Yeah. It makes people FEEL safe. In my gun-less scenario, the terrorists have no need to take hostages, as they just detonate/disperse their bombs or agents in place of maximum opportunity and crowd density. Their operations are about stealth, not being as overt as possible.

Were they cornered, they would detonate immediately. A dead man's switch isn't out of the question, either, based on the technological proficiency demonstrated by these terrorist groups in the past with coordinated attacks in multiple locations and such bits as altimeter/barometric activated detonators. Just about the time your officer takes his headshot, he's being cut apart by ball bearings (or glass marbles to fool the metal detectors) traveling 2 1/2 miles per second.

 

[c_yeager]

Brownie, i never questioned their right or necessesity to carry more fire power. I personally would carry as much as i could get away with. But dont you think that a supressed 9mm firing subsonic (doesnt make much sense to use supersonic ammo from an SD weapon) ammunition defeat a lot of the benefits of carrying a long arm in the first place?

 

[243_shooter]

It's good to see that they are prepared for the terrorist hordes.. You know the guys that waked right buy them before, and they'll walk right buy them again..

<sigh>

I feel safer already.

</sigh>

Leo

 

[brownie0486]

c_yeager:

I don't know they are using sunsonic ammo. Was that reported somewhere?

243_shooter: If they walk by them they won't need them. If they get caught attempting to board then the sd's will come into their own. Of course not all scenarios are cured by having a subgun, but the subgun has proven it's worth as a counter-terrorist weapon whe the SHTF comes along. Certainly much better at precision aimed fire under hostage situations.

CZ-75: See above, you don't think any piece of hardware will be effective 100% of the time do you? In your scenario, they wouldn't need their pistols either, does that mean they should not be carrying them at the airport, come on now, think.

cordex: I'm not sure why anyone would be jealous of anything, but not all their long arms are suppressed, I take long arms as meaning rifles, subguns aren't considered long arms usually.

Not sure that they carry the flashbangs and other gear on them, nor think they would need immediacy with much of it as most of the equipment is for assaultive, offensive work and they are in a defensive role for the most part. They would of course have all that available to the spec ops response teams and I'm sure the bomb unit isn't that far [ time wise ] from making an appearance when called.

The 223 is certainly under all conditions more penetrative than the 9mm. Both do well at penetration in ball but one less so due to rifle vs. pistol velocities.

No4Mk1*: Apparently you are unfamiliar with the pricing structure of smg's and autos in the last decade. They are getting pretty steep for a lot of different reasons, but the question may be better posed as this? What is the cost of safety and superior fire control vs. handguns.

As to price, you can spend that much on a race gun the boys use in IPSC easily, and thats a pistol. 900.00 for a sig handgun isn't unheard of, I don't think the 2500. is that much for the amount of security it can provide when needed.

Brownie