TheeBadOne
Member
We all know there are no dumb criminals, or crazy people, or drug abusers anymore. They are all very very bright, all MENSA members and more.....
brilliant terrorists...
Boston Logan airport cops get SMGs!!
- Thread starter robear
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We all know there are no dumb criminals, or crazy people, or drug abusers anymore. They are all very very bright, all MENSA members and more.....
brilliant terrorists...
Well, they sure figured out how to get on three airliners, take them over with box cutters, and fly them into buildings.
It doesn't matter how smart the soldier is, it's the battleplan that matters most. Surely Ayman al-Zawahiri, Osama, et al. can draw up some pretty good ones. This kind of limited thinking will only get us JBTs standing around with SMGs in a target that will either be bypassed entirely, or destroyed in a mass event that no SMG-toting JBT can prevent. Like I said before, bombs and biologicals aren't defeated by SMGs and the top terrorists know that and are planning accordingly.
Oh, and each $2500 spent on SMGs means $2500 less to spend elsewhere, like on better bomb detection, surveillance and face recognition systems, etc. for these very same airports I just had to mention that to the folks who depend on the seemingly inexhaustable govt. largesse extorted from taxpayers for their paychecks.
TheeBadOne
Member
Which of you experts are currently working in this feild? Opinions are fine, but stating things as facts is more than a stretch. I accept that each of you have opinions. Do you?
brownie0486
Member
CZ-75 : You missed the point completely sir. They are carrying the mp5sd as a deterrent and show of force as well.
There are many avenues the terrorists may persue to destroy us, one of them is the airports. Thats one of thereasons why they are there and at every major airport in Europe as well. They are all wrong and you are right. I got it now.
Hey, don't like paying taxes in the US or how they are used to defend YOU? move, and quickly, please.
Your statement of "After all, why waste resources attacking a target being guarded by SMG toting JBTs when you can kill people where they live?"
makes sense and answers the quetion you pose yourself. They may just decide the airport is not a place to try another 9-11. That would certainly curtail some of the avenues of threats they pose to us wouldn't it? The answer was in your question, you just don't understand how to logically process the information apparently and need a little help, no problem, you are welcome.
Perhaps you should have come over to the "dark" side and learned something about logic, tactics and staying alive in lieu of that education you chose to get. I'm not sure where you went to school for your hgher educational needs but I would ask for a refund if I was you. Apparently they taught you nothing but how to be anti-establishment early on and to question at every turn others motives for their actions. It's all a big conspiracy to take something from you and be able to have it themselves. They lay awake at night thinking of ways to "F##k you, right? Tell me, do your nightmares ever go away?
Tell me, did they not offer logic 101 at the school or did you purposely avoid that semester all together? I have figured out where you went to school, not the name but the location anyways. It's to the far left of my "six".
I went to the school of hard knocks where kids like you were not tolerated and were summarily removed from amoung our ranks. Where I got my eductation, you would not have survived. How do I know you wouldn't? Based on your intelligent statements of misinformation and attitude projected here. Saw a few of that type last a day or two maybe a month. They would have been fine in the land of "milk and honey" though.
seeker_two: yiour question--"Will someone explain to me what a $2.5K SMG will do better than a $500-800 carbine won't (besides looking cool & wasting ammo)?"
If it has to be explained you would not undestand. Look at it this way and perhaps you can extrapolate to something in your life.
You want a glock or a jennings to protect yourself with?
Please don't say the Jennings, please don't. You see the Jennings is a firearm, but not real reliable. The Glock is just the opposite ans is ultra reliable but still a firearm. Both the same but different in how they handle the same scenarios. The only way to explain it would be to show you on a line one day. If you don't know now, it may not ever be known by you until you pick up the hardware in question and experience it for yourself.
Brownie
There are many avenues the terrorists may persue to destroy us, one of them is the airports. Thats one of thereasons why they are there and at every major airport in Europe as well. They are all wrong and you are right. I got it now.
Hey, don't like paying taxes in the US or how they are used to defend YOU? move, and quickly, please.
Your statement of "After all, why waste resources attacking a target being guarded by SMG toting JBTs when you can kill people where they live?"
makes sense and answers the quetion you pose yourself. They may just decide the airport is not a place to try another 9-11. That would certainly curtail some of the avenues of threats they pose to us wouldn't it? The answer was in your question, you just don't understand how to logically process the information apparently and need a little help, no problem, you are welcome.
Perhaps you should have come over to the "dark" side and learned something about logic, tactics and staying alive in lieu of that education you chose to get. I'm not sure where you went to school for your hgher educational needs but I would ask for a refund if I was you. Apparently they taught you nothing but how to be anti-establishment early on and to question at every turn others motives for their actions. It's all a big conspiracy to take something from you and be able to have it themselves. They lay awake at night thinking of ways to "F##k you, right? Tell me, do your nightmares ever go away?
Tell me, did they not offer logic 101 at the school or did you purposely avoid that semester all together? I have figured out where you went to school, not the name but the location anyways. It's to the far left of my "six".
I went to the school of hard knocks where kids like you were not tolerated and were summarily removed from amoung our ranks. Where I got my eductation, you would not have survived. How do I know you wouldn't? Based on your intelligent statements of misinformation and attitude projected here. Saw a few of that type last a day or two maybe a month. They would have been fine in the land of "milk and honey" though.
seeker_two: yiour question--"Will someone explain to me what a $2.5K SMG will do better than a $500-800 carbine won't (besides looking cool & wasting ammo)?"
If it has to be explained you would not undestand. Look at it this way and perhaps you can extrapolate to something in your life.
You want a glock or a jennings to protect yourself with?
Please don't say the Jennings, please don't. You see the Jennings is a firearm, but not real reliable. The Glock is just the opposite ans is ultra reliable but still a firearm. Both the same but different in how they handle the same scenarios. The only way to explain it would be to show you on a line one day. If you don't know now, it may not ever be known by you until you pick up the hardware in question and experience it for yourself.
Brownie
That may be so, but for whom? I say so that citizens FEEL safe.
Look up "Frankfurt" and "Rome" to see how effective the issue of SMGs to eurocops has been.
No, because they are wasted, often on feel-good nonsense like this.
From such a devotee of logic as yourself, I take this as a compliment.
Tell me why the terrorists didn't try to take hostages in the terminal at Logan on 9/11 rather than slip by security and just board the planes to crash them into the WTC as they obviously did? Tell me how SMGs are going to help some JBT find terrorists slipping through security? Tell me why a SMG is needed against a terrorist armed with a boxcutter?
All it seems to me that you've done is reached a false conclusion by reasoning ad hoc, ergo propter hoc .
Tell me who needs a refresher in classical logic?
This sounds like you haven't been given your medication yet today.
No need to ask for my money back, since I got my education for free.
Ramble on.
Sounds like you need some more "eductation."
Starting with "logic 101."
brownie0486
Member
I can't speak for terrorists and answer for their actions. It would appear they had bigger ideas from what was carried out. That would be the "logical" conclusion, which you obviously can't grasp.
I don't come to any conclusions as to why they are carrying subguns in Logan. I also do not need to know why all of the major airports in Europe feel they need them either. That they have the percieved need based on intel I'm not privy to constantly, I prefer to defer to the people who go in harms way to protect us. Though with the experience I have their actions are prudent in my opinion and so I take no issues with their expense or carrying them thusly.
Cops are JBT's in your opinion? Is this from first hand knowledge or things you read at that "far to the left learning center" you went to. School for free? I'm appalled and very upset at that. Why should you get free education and I had to pay for mine [ in blood and sweat ]. You must be one of the privledged few you rant about constantly taking advantage of their position in life. Please turn yourself around from the armchair and give yourself a big spanking.
Again, when was the last time at BenGurion ariport? You never did answer that and I'd like to know so that I can make a logical deduction as to your statement being made from the armchair or actual knowledge. Never mind, I'm sure I can figure it out for myself.
The picture gets clearer as the posts go forward.
Brownie
I don't come to any conclusions as to why they are carrying subguns in Logan. I also do not need to know why all of the major airports in Europe feel they need them either. That they have the percieved need based on intel I'm not privy to constantly, I prefer to defer to the people who go in harms way to protect us. Though with the experience I have their actions are prudent in my opinion and so I take no issues with their expense or carrying them thusly.
Cops are JBT's in your opinion? Is this from first hand knowledge or things you read at that "far to the left learning center" you went to. School for free? I'm appalled and very upset at that. Why should you get free education and I had to pay for mine [ in blood and sweat ]. You must be one of the privledged few you rant about constantly taking advantage of their position in life. Please turn yourself around from the armchair and give yourself a big spanking.
Again, when was the last time at BenGurion ariport? You never did answer that and I'd like to know so that I can make a logical deduction as to your statement being made from the armchair or actual knowledge. Never mind, I'm sure I can figure it out for myself.
The picture gets clearer as the posts go forward.
Brownie
No, but MA state troopers sure fit the bill. So do any BDU clad, SMG-toting "officers" with little understanding of posse comitatus.
I can grasp that SMGs didn't and won't make a bit of difference, which is where this thread started. Intelligence, which you seem to know little about, is the key to preventing terrorism, not having a JBT w/ SMG shoot it out after the fact. Hopefully, you can grasp THAT.
Tell me what major university isn't "far to the left"? You have a gift for stating the obvious.
As to "free" school, I guess grades and test scores don't count toward "earning" that education, huh? You paid for your education b/c, I assume, you had none of the above. You should ask for your money, blood, and sweat back, then.
BTW, privilege had little to do with it.
atk
Member
Um... Guys, this thread's been pretty interesting to read, but the name calling really detracts...
brownie0486
Member
CZ-75:
You have been right all along, I defer to your higher education
Standing tall and listing neither to the far right or left.
Brownie
You have been right all along, I defer to your higher education
Standing tall and listing neither to the far right or left.
Brownie
Sergeant Bob
Member
It really doesn't matter how much money we spend on weapons, training, detectors, blah, blah, blah, at airports. We cannot make them terror proof. Even if we could, what good would it do in the fight against terror? Do terrorists have an "airport/airplane gene" or something that prevents them from attacking anything else?
What if next they attack a busy mall? Sporting event? Times square? Can we harden every possible target?
What if they started going into small town grocery stores, schools, post offices, etc, and blowing themselves up/shooting people? It's not just about numbers, it's about terror. Right now most of America feels pretty safe. That could be easily changed. Look at Isreal. Ben Gurion airport is probably the most secure airport in the world. Look at how many people die in terrorist acts in spite of the security at the airport. Most people in the U.S. are not at the airport. I don't think expending so much of our limited resources on airports is going to solve the problem.
What if next they attack a busy mall? Sporting event? Times square? Can we harden every possible target?
What if they started going into small town grocery stores, schools, post offices, etc, and blowing themselves up/shooting people? It's not just about numbers, it's about terror. Right now most of America feels pretty safe. That could be easily changed. Look at Isreal. Ben Gurion airport is probably the most secure airport in the world. Look at how many people die in terrorist acts in spite of the security at the airport. Most people in the U.S. are not at the airport. I don't think expending so much of our limited resources on airports is going to solve the problem.
Terrorists like to stick with what they know. They know that a simple assault on an airline industry such as I described before would directly effect the airline industry to the tune of hundreds of milllions of dollars, that the riple effect likely climb into the billions of dollars nationally, and that the psychological effect would be, from their point of view, priceless. They also know, or should know if they are half the threat we believe them to be, they could pull it off with ease.
As for allocation of resources, depending on the airport, a handful of suicide pact shooters targeting TSA security personel and targets of opportunity would all but crash the industry. The cost? A handful of "soldiers" and their arms. Peanuts, from their point of view.
Now, pitted against that potential threat we have well intended LEOs toting pistols and batons from a variety of municiple, state, and to a limited extent federal entities. Are their shotguns and rifles locked away somewhere? Most likely. Do they do much good there? Debatably, no. Which is why we are debating.
Me, I'd like to see M4s or something similar on the shoulders of strategically placed officers. I imagine more than a few folks in Boston argued the same. But others argued against the idea, and a compromise was struck. So handy, not too terribly ominous looking, somewhat expensive but very well crafter SMGs were selected. A good compromise? Debatably, yes. Debatably, no. Which is why the debate will undoubtably continue...
---
Not to suggest that any other imaginable scenarious are less likely, just that one will be hard pressed to attach the dollar figure associated with an airline industry related attack. (It isn't like nation wide attacks on bowling alleys would have the same impact.)
As for allocation of resources, depending on the airport, a handful of suicide pact shooters targeting TSA security personel and targets of opportunity would all but crash the industry. The cost? A handful of "soldiers" and their arms. Peanuts, from their point of view.
Now, pitted against that potential threat we have well intended LEOs toting pistols and batons from a variety of municiple, state, and to a limited extent federal entities. Are their shotguns and rifles locked away somewhere? Most likely. Do they do much good there? Debatably, no. Which is why we are debating.
Me, I'd like to see M4s or something similar on the shoulders of strategically placed officers. I imagine more than a few folks in Boston argued the same. But others argued against the idea, and a compromise was struck. So handy, not too terribly ominous looking, somewhat expensive but very well crafter SMGs were selected. A good compromise? Debatably, yes. Debatably, no. Which is why the debate will undoubtably continue...
---
Not to suggest that any other imaginable scenarious are less likely, just that one will be hard pressed to attach the dollar figure associated with an airline industry related attack. (It isn't like nation wide attacks on bowling alleys would have the same impact.)
seeker_two
Member
brownie:
The classic rebuttal of a person who CAN'T explain it (& can't spell the word "understand".)
Neither. That's why I own Colts, Rugers, S&W's, a Stoeger shotgun, & a SMLE sporter THAT I DIDN'T HAVE TO SPEND $2.5K EACH ON! Heck, I probably don't have THAT much in all my shooting equipment. And it's all reliable & accurate--which must be shocking to the "tactical tupperware" types buying for LE organizations...
I won't argue that. But I wouldn't want to be shot w/ one that just happened to work at the time, either...
If show is all that matters, give them Airsoft MP5's. I'd rather they have something that shoots more than plastic BB's, but I don't see that they need $2.5K chatterguns to take a target down, either. (Unless the "show" is for the next issue of "Mall Ninja Illustrated"...)
Didn't realize the bulbs were so dim over there...
P.S. You still owe me an answer...
The classic rebuttal of a person who CAN'T explain it (& can't spell the word "understand".)
Neither. That's why I own Colts, Rugers, S&W's, a Stoeger shotgun, & a SMLE sporter THAT I DIDN'T HAVE TO SPEND $2.5K EACH ON! Heck, I probably don't have THAT much in all my shooting equipment. And it's all reliable & accurate--which must be shocking to the "tactical tupperware" types buying for LE organizations...
I won't argue that. But I wouldn't want to be shot w/ one that just happened to work at the time, either...
If show is all that matters, give them Airsoft MP5's. I'd rather they have something that shoots more than plastic BB's, but I don't see that they need $2.5K chatterguns to take a target down, either. (Unless the "show" is for the next issue of "Mall Ninja Illustrated"...)
Didn't realize the bulbs were so dim over there...
P.S. You still owe me an answer...
TheeBadOne
Member
Ok, here's one real simple thing. Sight both an AR-15 and an MP5 in at 15 yards (for critical headshots).
Now move to 3-5 yards and shoot again. The MP5 will still be smack on. The AR-15 will be 2-3 inches LOW. Why? Look at the sight system. With the high sight that's what you get. You can train for that, but it's much easier to use a platform where that's not needed. I'll never get rid of my AR, but for some situations there are better tools.
By way of adding a bit of info on MP5SD's that I didn't see addressed yet...
These guns MUST use high-velocity 9mm ammo, as the SD barrel has several holes drilled in it to "bleed-off" propellant gasses so that the bullet will exit the gun at a subsonic velocity.
If you put sub-sonic cartrifges in an SD, you will have the worlds most expensive .380 carbine.
These guns MUST use high-velocity 9mm ammo, as the SD barrel has several holes drilled in it to "bleed-off" propellant gasses so that the bullet will exit the gun at a subsonic velocity.
If you put sub-sonic cartrifges in an SD, you will have the worlds most expensive .380 carbine.
seeker_two
Member
TBO: THANK YOU for a straight answer!
Now, in response, I'll remind you that we're talking about pistol-caliber semi-auto carbines. The AR-15 is .223. And I wouldn't recommend that for airports (esp. in FMJ).
Colt makes a 9mm carbine that addresses that problem. So does Ruger.
Thanks again for the response...
Now, in response, I'll remind you that we're talking about pistol-caliber semi-auto carbines. The AR-15 is .223. And I wouldn't recommend that for airports (esp. in FMJ).
Colt makes a 9mm carbine that addresses that problem. So does Ruger.
Thanks again for the response...
brownie0486
Member
seeker_two: What TheeBadOne said should have answered your question, I didn't respond [again ] as I had explained it several times and nobody that kept asking would understand if they didn't already. Care to ask again?
I also own all the weapons paltforms you named and then some more, I would still take the mp5 over all of them for that detail. Course, I have the training and field experience to know the difference between them where mission statements are concerned. Right tool for the right job, not that others could not do the same thing but not as easily or as proficiently.
I wouldn't want to be shot with one as it "just happened to work" at rhe right time as well. Answered your own question in the sentence sir, the mp5's don't just "happen to work" that would be relying on luck, something I'm not prone to do when the RIGHT equipment is available.
Did I say presence was all that mattered? Not hardly, you sure do like sticking words in others mouths and stating their case to fit your needs don't you?
The dark side, ah yes, lights are dimmed, the fun begins with all the idiots in the room who want to dance? May I have the next waltz?
What makes you think I owe you anything? Is that an attitude poking through there sir?
I trained with some atf swat types one year using the m4's while at HK during entry work. The m4's slowed us down on the line with problems. The mp5's ran all day everyday for a week of continuous abuse/use. That may be one reason the others were chosen, ultra reliability.
You can't be terror proofed but you can a best effort. I have the answer to make the world terror proof but it doesn't fit in with the political correct crowd. We'll get hit again soon enough for sure, the way to stop that is to make the sand a glass parking lot, then we know we got everyone and send the message quite clearly not be bothering us again on this soil.
Brownie
I also own all the weapons paltforms you named and then some more, I would still take the mp5 over all of them for that detail. Course, I have the training and field experience to know the difference between them where mission statements are concerned. Right tool for the right job, not that others could not do the same thing but not as easily or as proficiently.
I wouldn't want to be shot with one as it "just happened to work" at rhe right time as well. Answered your own question in the sentence sir, the mp5's don't just "happen to work" that would be relying on luck, something I'm not prone to do when the RIGHT equipment is available.
Did I say presence was all that mattered? Not hardly, you sure do like sticking words in others mouths and stating their case to fit your needs don't you?
The dark side, ah yes, lights are dimmed, the fun begins with all the idiots in the room who want to dance? May I have the next waltz?
What makes you think I owe you anything? Is that an attitude poking through there sir?
I trained with some atf swat types one year using the m4's while at HK during entry work. The m4's slowed us down on the line with problems. The mp5's ran all day everyday for a week of continuous abuse/use. That may be one reason the others were chosen, ultra reliability.
You can't be terror proofed but you can a best effort. I have the answer to make the world terror proof but it doesn't fit in with the political correct crowd. We'll get hit again soon enough for sure, the way to stop that is to make the sand a glass parking lot, then we know we got everyone and send the message quite clearly not be bothering us again on this soil.
Brownie
TheeBadOne
Member
Seeker, you still run into the 15 yard/3-5 yard sight in problem with them. (they are quite good too and have many uses).
brownie0486
Member
CZ-75:
What is SEEL team 6? Do you mean the USNavy seals?
Thats the second time in this thread you have used the wrong acronym for an elite fighting unit within the navy.
Armchairs are getting a good workout lately hey boys?
Brownie
What is SEEL team 6? Do you mean the USNavy seals?
Thats the second time in this thread you have used the wrong acronym for an elite fighting unit within the navy.
Armchairs are getting a good workout lately hey boys?
Brownie
brownie0486
Member
We used the 16 platform in 70 when I was younger, got a lot of boys killed as they didn't work worth crap.
That was all supposed to be solved long ago, yet in 1994 the m4's were still problem children on the line. The mp5's have no such issues and never needed to be reengineered so that they still are not reliable enough for up close and personal matters.
Ya, I know we still use them in the military, bad mistakes keep being made by them as they loathe to change.
Brownie
That was all supposed to be solved long ago, yet in 1994 the m4's were still problem children on the line. The mp5's have no such issues and never needed to be reengineered so that they still are not reliable enough for up close and personal matters.
Ya, I know we still use them in the military, bad mistakes keep being made by them as they loathe to change.
Brownie
TheeBadOne
Member
The main problem with 15/16/m4 type long guns is fouling. When they are clean they run well. When they get dirty they are problematic. Try ones with the stainless bolt assemblies (like mine), they are even more picky (clean and lube well and often). Like I said, when cleaned and lubed properly they work well. The H&K's seem to tolerate feild conditions and neglect better. (much like a stock Glock compaired to a stock 1911).
seeker_two
Member
I don't doubt the MP5's legendary reliability. But that doesn't make other brands junk, either. And the "RIGHT equipment" in this case isn't a $2.5K chattergun...:banghead:
Hope no taxpayer money went toward your collection...
Sounds like the "show" is pretty important...
Why not? It's your dancefloor...
Not me, but you do owe the principal of honest discussion an answer...
!!!FINALLY!!! Something a thinking person can agree upon...
You're right, CZ. I don't want to have to defend the homestead against Assault Force Guppy tonight...
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