Boston Logan airport cops get SMGs!!

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seeker_two:

Do yourself a favor and check out the www.folders-r-us.org site tonight. Look to the index to the left of the homepage. Then click the link "about our expert". You'll find a small bio on me with a picture of the family.

Let me know when you are ready to dance, I'd be more than happy to accomodate you, you can even lead if you like.

I'm a guppy and an old guppy at that, I still expect it will be a short dance though.

Brownie
 
It's not a thin argument, it's my money also that pays for safety concerns and implemented procedures since 9-11.
It is no concern of mine how you spend your money. It is my concern how you spend my money.
It was a wakeup call, do we not answer the phone?
A wake-up call that terrorists can hurt us even if they follow the rules we make? Which will, of course, be prevented by a few more still-in-training officers carrying mean looking subguns? Hrm.
Hey, don't like paying taxes in the US or how they are used to defend YOU? move, and quickly, please.
So, basically "Shut up and pay up or get out ... we know what is best for you. Live with it or leave."?
Cute, but no thanks.

The main problem with 15/16/m4 type long guns is fouling. When they are clean they run well. When they get dirty they are problematic.
*grin* Which is a BIG problem when you're carrying them around the airport, right Thee?
 
brownie:

You have a lovely family, there. And a great dog. What breed is it?

I don't think you want to dance w/ me. I don't leave a lot of toes unscathed... :D

Now, would you answer another question for me? Why do you think that the H&K MP5 is the ONLY weapon that should be considered for this duty? In a live combat zone, I'd agree (but suggest something w/ an actual rifle cartridge). But for security in Logan, I think other, less-costly, more easily deployed shoulder-fired arm would be a better choice.

Here's another question: What makes a Ruger PC-9 or Colt semi-auto 9mm carbine a poor choice for this duty?

I don't doubt YOUR personal abilities or experience. I DO doubt the wisdom of Mass. SP's spending large amounts of money on a weapon system when a less expensive version can be procured & the rest of the money spent on training. Or, as another poster stated...

Oh, and each $2500 spent on SMGs means $2500 less to spend elsewhere, like on better bomb detection, surveillance and face recognition systems, etc. for these very same airports I just had to mention that to the folks who depend on the seemingly inexhaustable govt. largesse extorted from taxpayers for their paychecks.

Waltz is over. Wanna samba now?...:evil:
 
seeker_two, you've been given quite a few answers/reasons. For the scenario the MP5 is one of the best weapons for it. I listed some reasons previously, but include 1st round hit probability, reliability (again), controlability, ACCURACY (from point blank to 100 yards).

The problem is not with the question you are asking, but the answer you are looking for. There is not one thing (as in single) that makes "it" the best weapon for that particular job, it's all the little things added up.

For a different scenario (there are lots) the AR-15 rules the roost. For others the scout bolt action scoped rifle.

For those who dispute dollars and cents, why aren't you questioning the semi-auto handguns all the LEO agencies went to? All those revolvers cost a lot of money to replace and train peope on.

When peoples lives are at risk you want good (as in the best) equipment.
 
seeker_two: Thanks for the words about the family. The dog is a long coated Akita, she was 10 there and 12 now. An old girl who'll be going to the happy hunting grounds soon unfortunately.

I'm sure it was not the only weapon considered for that duty, though I'm unsure what options they were actually considering. One of the main reasons I would think was because their stop teams already use them for entry/hostage rescue in this state and they have commonality by stayig with the same weapons platform. That would be a major consideration as tactical officers here are already familiar with it and have trained on it for years.

The state spent the federal money sent to support homeland security. If looked at strictly with monies needed to ramp up in training and logistics, it would probably be cheaper than having two different platforms amoungst the troops which would be a logistical nightmare in and of itself. Training costs would be extraordinary by having to duplicate training times on each weapon. I'm sure there were other reasons as well, and can guess some of it was the officers wanted the mp5's by reputation of dependability alone. Many troopers are my age and were in country as well where they were turned off by the 16 platform getting buddies killed.

A person must feel confident in their gear, I know I would not be confident with anything but the mp5 were I assigned their tasks. I can only guess many of them felt the same way.

cordex: No one person deciding how to spend your money, the gov't did that by allocating each state some of your tax dollars which you had already paid, for homeland defense.

Brownie
 
I've verbally tangled with Brownie on the knife forum and you know what? I was wrong. And I admit that. I respect Brownie a lot. He's a man of integrity and honesty and anyone who thinks he's a "wanna-be" or a mall ninja are quite mistaken. The man has BEEN and DONE and unless YOU have, too, and were there with him don't be throwing allegations that he hasn't. You don't have to believe IN what he says, but you can darn well believe WHAT he says. And you can take that to the bank.
 
TBO: Don't get me started on the auto-vs.-revolver debate...:rolleyes:

SG: I'm not challenging brownie's bona fides. My question is toward the need for expensive SMG's in this situation.

brownie: I'm sorry to hear about your Akita. I've lost a few dogs, and I've been close to every one.

As for this issue. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree (not as if MSP is making any decisions from this dialogue anyway.) While I have no complaint against the MP5's pedigree, I don't think it's the "$100 hammer" for this particular job. And I think that the other options are worth more consideration than have been given.

My ideal choice would have been a silenced carbine in .45ACP. There are a few AR-based versions of this that are highly accurate & powerful. 9mm & .40S&W would also be acceptable. And a lot less expensive than the MP5. There's even a company that makes a silenced .44SPL carbine based on the Deerfield design--worth checking out.

A distinguished firearms instructor once said, "Any gun will do if YOU can do." I believe the shooter (esp. w/ good training) is FAR more important than any gun you give him.
 
With so much focus on the weapons, I sense a bit of a lack of discussion about the combat training these fine troopers have received. Specifically, how much is it? What kind of training?

As a soldier, I have a good grasp of squad-level tactics. I can command my men with a reasonable amount of skill, because that's where the majority of my training has been. We have our SOPs worked out, including hand signals and marching order. We come out on top during combat training if we are so well coordinated. The greatest flaw of the soldiers I see is communication. So often the most basic tactics of movement and fire are neglected because the leaders fail to lead. If you get one good commander who knows his job, his soldiers will follow and complete the objective. Otherwise chaos reigns and people get tagged.

This being said, what can one expect of the troopers over at Logan? A week's worth of weapons training is all well and good, but what about when the SHTF? I don't feel any safer seeing the subguns at Logan without knowing that commo, coordination, and SOP has been well worked out and practiced.

So, what kind of training have these troopers received? Are they members of a quick reaction force, or simply troopers who have been assigned to airport duty and have no specific training?

The majority of my training involves outdoor terrain, over at Devens or down at Camp Edwards. I have only had one weekend of MOUT in my three years so far so I can't claim to know the task very well. But I do know that a facility as complex as Logan requires some serious consideration.
 
This thread has made me glad of one thing--not living in the authoritarian Northeast. Local agencies here would be flayed mercilessly by the taxpayers for going on such a wacked spending spree no matter whose taxes were tapped for the doodads.

That these guys can buy subguns and sell it with straight faces to the people and the press in Massachusetts speaks volumes about the sheeple there.

Let's see, the MassPort authorities let Islamofascist terrorists aboard one of the planes at Logan. The response? Hmmm. MP5SDs will do the trick.:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
 
Devonai,
I would be surprised if the officers receive anything beyond SMG basic and intermediate familiarization and marksmanship training. Unless, of course, the officers were already members of an established special responce team, which doesn't seem to be the case. (The headlines would have read "SWAT members to be deployed at Logan.")
 
Whats this, pick on Mass. week?

Why not? Target rich environment and all that.

Picking on MassPort is justified by such freespending BS that really only serves as yet another indicator of how disdainful the authorities there are of how public money is properly spent.

Questions:

When was the last running gun battle at Logan? Howabout the last shooting period?

If the silencers are to avoid panic, are the envisioned terrorist attackers guaranteed to play along too with their own silencers?

For $2500 per copy with US taxpayer funds, why not buy something domestic? The chances that the MP5SDs will ever be fired in anger is only just north of zero percent.

What's in the water out there that makes everyone with a publicly funded budget such a freespending bozo? (See The Big Dig, Harbor Clean-up, The Federal Courthouse, and now the People's Airport Arsenal.)
 
My solution: Cops all grow long, droopy mustaches. All dress like Kurt Russell's Wyatt Earp in "Tombstone". Carry two S&W Schofields beefed up to chamber .45ACP and .44 Magnum Winchesters. In front of the airport is a gallows with noose. Filled on occasion with bad boys. Offer lucrative contract to roasted corn and other snack vendors for booths adjacent to gallows and tax-free cigar stand in airport to pay for police. Charge tourists $5.00 for photos of "real American cowboy cops" at souvineer stand (where you can also get miniature gallows paperweights and T-shirts that say "My Parents Saw the Hanging of A Terrorist And All I Got Was This Lousy T-Shirt, Pard!" Have parking lot patrols on horseback.


"All of you Amereecan infidels will die! I will shoot you all like dogs!!"

"I'm your huckleberry..."
 
I guess 2500.00 is a lot of money to some, not to me, but then I'm from Mass and make the kind of money others in less fortuitist states just think about.

We have the best hospitals in the world, the best higher education in the world, and a few others things that others can't access but here in this state.

There is good and bad to every states position within the union.

Oh, we are target rich, thats why all the moneyed get to Bostons doctors when they have the choice.

When was the last time a swat team was needed in podunk, USA? They have the same equipment and have never been called out. They cost the taxpayers good money for their equipment and training, never been called to Marthas house with a hostage situation, but hey they might be one day and they best be prepared.

Actually Masport and the Mass state police have a very rich environment where potential is a consideration. I would think less so for other cities not on a coastline in the middle of the bible belt and corn fields.

Besides, I wasn't aware you were involved with their intelligence units and the hot line to the white house that been hooked up to the gov's office here. Several govs just got them, not all mind you but only a few, Mass. being one of those.

You don't suppose they may know something you don't do you? When the last time you were involved in coordinating their intel from other countries and privy to their needs?

I suggest without that unless you have that position you are not really in any position to determine what the states international airport needs. I don't think you could even guess what they have for intel. Or do you think you'll be reading their morning briefings in the next days paper keeping you up to speed with the latest potential threats to the ariport, Boston, and the state.

You see how you want to bash them for their actions without any understanding of their projected needs? Shows some real intelligence on your part to be second guessing something you know nothing about. Care to make another uneducated guess or unintelligent remark about something you know nothing about?

Since when do we hold our forces responsible for their actions. Who knows how they will come at us again, are you saying we should be able to control something they do before they do it.
We can control our actions, not theirs.
To state a question like that shows me what? Probably that you were trying to make your point about something you are in all liklihood unintelligent about.

Why don't the swat teams buy domestic all across the board in the US? After all, lets keep it domestic and save the money at the same time? Guess what there sir, they use the best tool for the job and I'm sure if you had the position they had you would want the best money could buy as well to save you bacon and that of civilians.

Unless you are telling me you arm yourself by price of the hardware alone, you do the same thing. Most buy the best they can afford, if they have any brains at all.

Perhaps we should have 007 carrying a jennings .25 in lieu of a walther ppk. I think "M" would be able to save a lot of money by not issuing James all those expensive gadgets he has when he could make due with less [ at the risk of his own life ]. After all, like you, he is not the one putting himself in harms way so who cares. Great attitude and thought process, gotta love the "good old boys"

Brownie
 
I guess 2500.00 is a lot of money to some, not to me, but then I'm from Mass and make the kind of money others in less fortuitist states just think about.

Well golly, when the per capita income of the rest of the United States is only some 1500 dollars a year we’ll just have to take your word for it. Wow, being a private dick affords the ability to be a public one too! Who knew?

We have the best hospitals in the world, the best higher education in the world, and a few others things that others can't access but here in this state.

Yep, ya got me der boss. Dares no institut–er–book lernin’ place outside o’ Mass dat rivals dat whats found dare.

There is good and bad to every states position within the union.

And when one is not one of the privileged few with a Massachusetts Class A firearms license, and finds himself in Massachusetts, undoubtedly one is in one of the worst positions within the union.

Oh, we are target rich, thats why all the moneyed get to Bostons doctors when they have the choice.

Yep, UCSF, University of Washington Medical Center, and the Mayo Clinic in Rochester Minnesota all have no appeal whatsoever.

When was the last time a swat team was needed in podunk, USA? They have the same equipment and have never been called out. They cost the taxpayers good money for their equipment and training, never been called to Marthas house with a hostage situation, but hey they might be one day and they best be prepared.

I don’t know exactly where Podunk is, but most of them bought their unused toys with asset forfeiture. Oregon, for one, has had the good sense to require actual criminal conviction prior to an asset forfeiture being launched, as it should be. However, all of this is a side issue. What is or is not going on in Podunk is tertiary, what the MassPort force requires suppressed German subguns for is the issue. One inescapable fact is that before the Iwannacoolgun virus struck hard and the paramilitarization of the police began in Los Angeles following the Watts riots, much simpler hardware carried the day even against the Tommy Gun equipped John Dillingers of the world.

Actually Masport and the Mass state police have a very rich environment where potential is a consideration. I would think less so for other cities not on a coastline in the middle of the bible belt and corn fields.

I happen to live on that “other†coast, with some of the busiest ports in the world, where potentialities are not met obliquely through the purchase of German subguns for the most tortured of reasons.

Besides, I wasn't aware you were involved with their intelligence units and the hot line to the white house that been hooked up to the gov's office here. Several govs just got them, not all mind you but only a few, Mass. being one of those.

Didn’t take long for the appeal to authority to appear. You wouldn’t happen to be talking about the “intelligence units†that missed only the most deadly terrorist attack ever mounted would you? I am also sure any politico with a life appointed troglodyte in the US Senate can get a hot line to a self-important governor in the name of homeland security these days.

You don't suppose they may know something you don't do you? When the last time you were involved in coordinating their intel from other countries and privy to their needs?

I must have missed the international consulting agreements that MassPort struck up with the rest of the Western intelligence community–sorry.

I suggest without that unless you have that position you are not really in any position to determine what the states international airport needs. I don't think you could even guess what they have for intel. Or do you think you'll be reading their morning briefings in the next days paper keeping you up to speed with the latest potential threats to the ariport, Boston, and the state.

Of course you would suggest that. Unless one were in a position to consult, “Hey you guys should get some silenced machineguns with that pot of federal money out there.†one would be ignored. I can guess what the CIA’s Massachusetts Field Office has for intel to give MassPort–SQUAT. Anyone can point to a historical record of machine gun wielding terrorists attacking airports in Europe over the past few decades and tell some doughnut eaters that it could happen to them.

You see how you want to bash them for their actions without any understanding of their projected needs? Shows some real intelligence on your part to be second guessing something you know nothing about. Care to make another uneducated guess or unintelligent remark about something you know nothing about?

Yep. I will bash them for their projected needs because those needs, as articulated by one of their own representatives in the press, are high smelling crapola. I can state in all confidence that I know as much about fighting terrorists in an airport with the fear of muzzle flashes setting off jet fuel fires as MassPort does–not one darn thing–their sole advantage over me is the ability to waste taxpayers’ money after having an executive level fantasy about their potential gun battles.

Since when do we hold our forces responsible for their actions. Who knows how they will come at us again, are you saying we should be able to control something they do before they do it.

No, I am only saying that if they want a silent gun battle, both sides would necessarily have to be using silencers to avoid panicking the sheeple.

We can control our actions, not theirs.

When you are only half the equation, you don’t control the situation at all at the outset.

To state a question like that shows me what? Probably that you were trying to make your point about something you are in all liklihood unintelligent about.

Just pointing out an obvious hole in their non-existent logic for buying silenced MGs. What I know is that the MassPort rationale for their toy purchase sounds unintelligent.

Why don't the swat teams buy domestic all across the board in the US? After all, lets keep it domestic and save the money at the same time? Guess what there sir, they use the best tool for the job and I'm sure if you had the position they had you would want the best money could buy as well to save you bacon and that of civilians.

Best tool? When it all boils down, it is a subjective choice as to what is the best tool. There was no T&E in the MP5SD choice, just at least two tailor-made tactical fantasies that the MP5SD fit the bill for.

Unless you are telling me you arm yourself by price of the hardware alone, you do the same thing. Most buy the best they can afford, if they have any brains at all.

If they were paying their own way you’d have a mighty fine point there. However, the money is not theirs, it’s ours. As it is public money being spent they should have cost effectiveness and domesticity in mind. By your logic, cop cruisers at MassPort should all be BMW 750il sedans, with a job effective re-upholstery of course. I smell some mighty strong BS in “let’s buy the most expensive tool capable of getting the job done†position you are advocating for public funds.

Perhaps we should have 007 carrying a jennings .25 in lieu of a walther ppk. I think "M" would be able to save a lot of money by not issuing James all those expensive gadgets he has when he could make due with less [ at the risk of his own life ]. After all, like you, he is not the one putting himself in harms way so who cares. Great attitude and thought process, gotta love the "good old boys"

Even if the choice in police small arms isn’t as stark as your contrast between Jennings and Walther, James Bond has as much CQB experience as the MassPort cops at Logan do I would wager. Since Bond is fictitious, that experience would of course be none at all. With all of the fiction surrounding the decision by MassPort to acquire their German toys I am forced to conclude that somehow Michael Moore got a consulting contract with them.

(MM to MassPort Officials: "You'll look really intimidating with these guns. I did Airsoft mock-ups with my staff and also ruled out getting the costumer from Robocop to make you look more sinister. We'll just go with the tried and true method of getting you submachineguns like they tote in Europe--they were very intimidating at Heathrow when I was there recently--if one ignores their silly hats.)
 
Speaking of hats, how about my idea? Black frock coats, gunbelts of black leather with silver trim...ya gotta love it! In adition to the gallows in the front of the airport, put Boot Hill along the runways so folks landing can see what happened to the last characters that pulled a shenanigan. Got to admit it'd have class.

"'Scuse me ma'am, I'm turrible sorry to have to do this. But we've got to check your bag and even might see your, well, ah, your squirrel covers as it were ma'am when we look into your bag. We're turrible sorry, but them's the rules."
 
Maybe they should just all be made over like this:

evil-dead-02-05.jpg


WHERE'S MY BOOMSTICK?
 
Why would you need T+E on mp5's? They have already become the weapon of choice by professionals all over the world.

Sounds like you are jealous about not having one yourself and they do. The again, they have a job to do which you don't. Want to put the suit on and stand a post against them [ terrorists ]? You'll get one also probably. Easy to sit and armchair when you don't have to worry about saving your butt.

And the atttitude toward LE's in general really shines through. If you have a better plan, I suggest you go to washington and state your case and plan to them. They'll surely take it seriously as you have all the qualifications and the answers.

How is one in the the worst of situations without a class a in Mass? There are states that you can't carry concealed at all, I would think they were the ones in the worse situation.

Your point about the PI work? Maybe you should try it some time, pays real good, the hours not so. Didn't you know? Everyone needs a private dick once in awhile.

Oh those are fine medical facilities you mention, not the best like I stated we have in Boston but real good. The people who can afford the best come to Boston for medical care, thats where it's at.

Most bought them with assett forfiture? Some perhaps but most come from the taxpayers. Citing one example really makes your point nationally.

No I wouldn't be talking about the “intelligence units†that missed anything. They were not in place prior to 9-11, but maybe you didn't know that. As well, it was not illegal to board a plane with a knife under four inches in blade length at that time so box cutter would have been allowed on the planes even if they had been found in the onboard luggage. They had committed no crimes in the airport to be noticed. That it happened in Boston was not Mass. or Boston or Massports fault, it could have easily been LAX or Miami or New York itself.

I earn every penny I make the hard way, dealing with the lowlifes of the world. Care to join me or would you rather sit in the armchair there commando?

Brownie
 
OK, brownie. Now you're starting to get waaaay out there...

Sounds like you are jealous about not having one yourself and they do.

No. I don't have a large cache of ammo that I need to get rid of quickly. Neither do I have a large, intrusive, socialistic state government that doesn't mind spending taxpayer money willy-nilly instead of practicing fiscal responsibility like most working-class stiffs have to--esp. when it comes to firearm purchases. If I did, maybe I'd have a $2.5K chattergun in every room. But I have to protect myself w/ more humble guns. And I don't think I'm any less-effectively armed. And I don't think MSP would be, either...

And the atttitude toward LE's in general really shines through.

It's not an attitude (just 3 t's there, sir) toward LEO's that is being expressed. It's an attitude toward tax-&-spend-politicians-who-spend-our-money-for-show-instead-of-taking-actions-that-really-matter MORONS that is being expressed...

Everyone needs a private dick once in awhile.

O-Kaaaay....:scrutiny:

Most bought them with assett forfiture? Some perhaps but most come from the taxpayers.

1. ASSET!
2. Exactly correct. Taxpayers. Remember us? The ones who really don't like when the government takes our money and wastes it on stupid ideas like Bosnia, nuclear reactors in N. Korea, financial aid to France & Saudi Arabia, and equipping LEO's w/ $2.5K chatterguns FOR SHOW!

As well, it was not illegal to board a plane with a knife under four inches in blade length at that time so box cutter would have been allowed on the planes even if they had been found in the onboard luggage. They had committed no crimes in the airport to be noticed.

So now that boxcutters are illegal, we have to arm our airport security with $2.5K chatterguns to prevent even ONE boxcutter from coming through (not thinking that, if every pilot had a .38SPL revolver handy, that boxcutter would mean SQUAT). Maybe have some RPG's handy in case the terrorists try to smuggle large blunt objects aboard--like books, computers, or even SUITCASES!

Now I have a few reasons to thank God that I don't have to fly or travel to Massachusetts...
 
seeker_two:
Not way out there, I don't have one either. My humble guns probably look just like yours. I don't feel the need to own them. Certainly like playing with them with friends who have them though.

You don't have a large, intrusive, socialistic state government that doesn't mind spending taxpayer money willy-nilly instead of practicing fiscal responsibility? Perhaps

Yes, just like you, I pay taxes. But you have such a passion as to how it is spent. Once it is taxed from you and they have it [ you do obviously surrender monies earned on your wages ], everyone wants to have a say in how its spent. You may not like this expenditure or that expenditure as it's spent, sometimes I don't like the way my tax dollars are spent either.

So who do you blame? The dems or the repubs? It goes on today and it will go on tomorrow. It ebbs and flows as to it's prone to excess and waste depending on the policy of the times.

Can't blame them for spending it when you give it to them. If you think they have enough to waste in the first place then you should be petitioning the revenuers for regress and not the people it was given to to spend as they deemed fit.

I have the same problems as you in life, I want more, they want more, with lots of waste. I have found when I spend less time letting those things agitate me I have more time to learn the system I find myself in and consequently more productive. Thats a two way street though as they make more and so do I.

Be water, not ice

Brownie
 
Once it is taxed from you and they have it [ you do obviously surrender monies earned on your wages ], everyone wants to have a say in how its spent.

Isn't that how a tax system in a REPRESENTATIVE REPUBLIC is supposed to work? And the way one does that is to elect good representatives who don't waste the money.

So who do you blame? The dems or the repubs?

I blame the politician who votes for the waste & work to make sure he doesn't do so again. The person is the focus, not the party. For example, while I tend to vote Republican (b/c more conservatives are to be found there), I will be voting AGAINST Bush & Gov. Perry (TX) in the next primary b/c I don't think they're doing the overall job well enough. I want someone in there who DOES well, and I'll work for that goal.

Can't blame them for spending it when you give it to them.

I don't GIVE it to them. They take it from me w/o my consent. If you don't believe that, just tell your payroll person & the IRS that you don't want to pay taxes anymore...:banghead:

I have the same problems as you in life, I want more, they want more, with lots of waste.

I.E. Boston Logan Airport Cops Get SMG's...

I have found when I spend less time letting those things agitate me I have more time to learn the system I find myself in and consequently more productive.

Yes. Work more. Make more money. Pay more taxes. Don't question our authority. Let us do as we wish. That's what your government wants. And it seems that they have supporters of that philosophy in Mass.

Be water, not ice

Either way, you're all wet, brownie...:neener:
 
seeker_two: Such an educated response. I notice you use the emoticons quite often to express your emotions here. Usually the one where the dip is banging his head against the wall. Thats exactly one of the points made here. You can bang your head all you want, that action won't change anything.

Ya, vote for the dems instead. They are your friends where arms are concerned in the public hands. You beat yourself up real good now in 2004 ya here?

Myself, I'll take the lesser of the two evils to choose from.

By working within the system, you are giving them the money, they are not taking it from you. You voluntarily agree to work, ergo you voluntarily give them the money they take. You have a choice to not work within the system, but you choose to. Therby lending credence to the notion you agree to abide by the system.
Again, if you don't like it why do you work within it's structure?

Or is it better to whine and bang that head of yours up against a wall. Ya, thats it, maybe if I hurt myself somebody will take me seriously. Okay, now, I see in lieu of you beating a dead horse you prefer to beat yourself. Self blood letting at it's best right?

Oh, I see, all these problems arose after GW was elected. The dems have never done so or to a greater extent right? Or you could be one of those 2%ers' who go with a party that may stand a chance at representing the people in this country around the year 12,000.

They aren't Boston Logan airport cops. Logan doesn't have cops. You know any major airport that supplies their own police?

You either beat the system or it beats you, and until you learn that that is the way it has always been and will continue to be you are not going to be as comfortable as you could be.

Hey, I don't like paying for all the welfare recipients who are not citizens but thems the breaks pal. I work within the system, change by voting things that I might be able to change and know the difference between idealism and reality. Something others here like yourself just can't seem to grasp apparently.

Brownie
 
Ya, vote for the dems instead. They are your friends where arms are concerned in the public hands. You beat yourself up real good now in 2004 ya here?

Would someone explain to brownie what a PRIMARY is? I'm afraid I'm speaking above him...

Myself, I'll take the lesser of the two evils to choose from.

Either way, you still choose evil. I prefer to keep my hands clean & my conscience clear...

By working within the system, you are giving them the money, they are not taking it from you. You voluntarily agree to work, ergo you voluntarily give them the money they take.

Just the same "doublespeak" that let the Klintons call taxes "contributions." Are you suggesting that we disaffected taxpayers conspire to break the law? Great suggestion for someone in your position. I'm sure the IRS would agree...

Or is it better to whine and bang that head of yours up against a wall.

Are you actually READING my posts before you respond? I suggest a little remediaton--start at the top & work your way back here. THEN we can pick up on the intelligent discussion...

Oh, I see, all these problems arose after GW was elected.

Like the McCain/Feingold Bill? Like immunity for illegal aliens? Like the Patriot Act (I & II)? Like "tax cuts" for people who don't pay taxes? Like kow-towing to the UN & France? Like his statements on the AWB?

(If that isn't enough, I'll add more later...)

You either beat the system or it beats you, and until you learn that that is the way it has always been and will continue to be you are not going to be as comfortable as you could be.

I'm glad you weren't in Mass. circa 1776. We'd all still speak w/ an English accent (or, in my case, a Spanish one...)

Hey, I don't like paying for all the welfare recipients who are not citizens but thems the breaks pal. I work within the system, change by voting things that I might be able to change and know the difference between idealism and reality.

So, what have you not surrendered to? I'm still working to change things...

Something others here like yourself just can't seem to grasp apparently.

One reality that I CAN grasp, though, is that MSP doesn't need $2.5K chatterguns to protect the public.

But that's OK. I realize that Mass. has surrendered to the "Big Government Is Good and Never Wrong & Deserves All Our Money" position. But don't speak poorly of the states (& people within them) who still are willing to fight for a better society...

One last emoticon: Trying to use reason & logic in this dialogue w/ you--- :banghead:
 
seeker_two: Good post.

Does the primary have dems and repubs? You get to prepick the representative, but it's the vote in the election that determines which ideology is in power.

" I prefer to keep my hands clean & my conscience clear..."
So you don't vote?

"Just the same "doublespeak" that let the Klintons call taxes "contributions." Are you suggesting that we disaffected taxpayers conspire to break the law? Great suggestion for someone in your position. I'm sure the IRS would agree..."

Show me what was worded that you interpreted I was suggesting breaking the law.


"Like the McCain/Feingold Bill? Like immunity for illegal aliens? Like the Patriot Act (I & II)? Like "tax cuts" for people who don't pay taxes? Like kow-towing to the UN & France? Like his statements on the AWB?"

Take it up with your representatives. BTW-If it was a dem in office you would be citing issues with them as well. So which is it, you just don't like either party?

"So, what have you not surrendered to? I'm still working to change things..."

Pray tell us how you are "working" to change things? You surrender to things in your life like all of us. You already surrender a portion of your pay. You also surrender a portion of your life while working in the system. Must be a reason you do these things, or am I to believe the tax man is at your door to pick you up and make you work everyday? You choose to surrender time, money and energy to the system.

Ted Kuzinski chose not to to these things. You on the other hand do work within the system and by so doing voluntarily surrender at least part of your freedom to the work day where Uncle takes his cut and you readily provide him with it.

"One reality that I CAN grasp, though, is that MSP doesn't need $2.5K chatterguns to protect the public. "

Well there is hope for you afterall. I was beginning to wonder if you had a grasp on reality.

"Trying to use reason & logic in this dialogue w/ you--- "

That is your perception, which has become your reality.

I really want to hear what you are doing to not surrender to the big evil establishment as you have stated. Your comment "I'm still working to change things...", ya thats the one, some examples of your work to effect change please. Specifics would be nice.

Brownie
 
There's been quite enough duelling challenges, chest-puffing, mud slinging, condescending and insulting remarks, and other rules violations here for one thread.

Lights out.
 
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