Business courtesy?

[Flynt]

I have been baffled by small business owners' behaviour for decades. They often act in ways that are contrary to their own self interest. I'm not just talking about LGSs -- I've had a lot more weird encounters with mom & pope deli owners, dry cleaners, etc. Many are so set in their ways that they run off customers.

I'll never forget a Kosher deli owner in a strip mall in suburban D.C. in the 70's. He obsessed over the 3-4 parking spaces in front of his shope. He had huge signs with, "parking for deli customers only!" pylons, etc. -- everything but mines. I had noticed the deli and thought it might be pretty good, so one day I pulled into one of his spaces, but before I could get out he was on the sidewalk, screaming at me to get out of his parking space. Obviously I abandoned my plan to shop there.

The deli owner is an extreme example, and probably a little unhinged. But many small business owners and entrepreneurs I've known have proudly told me that the wanted to be their own boss. After you get to know them, you begin to suspect that the other side to this is the fact that they could never get along with anybody. I hate to say it, but some small business owners are misfits. On the other side of the coin, some are also geniuses and go on to build large empires. (But I'm told Bill Gates wasn't the best boss.)

Anyway, I suspect that a lot of LGS owners are people who place a higher value on "doing it my way," etc., than material success. Many probably wouldn't survive under a boss who held them accountable. The independent streak can be seen as a sign of someone who's true to himself and has integrity, or it can be seen as a sign of somebody who's rigid and self-focused to the detriment of himself and those around him. You choose.

 

[DAP90]

An email isn’t really a commitment to purchase.

If you still want to do business with him go back down to the store and ask him to special order the product; cash in hand. That will get his attention in a way that an email never will. You deserved a response but there are many legitimate reasons why you might not have gotten one.

Also, I wouldn’t use the prices from online retailers as a direct negotiating tactic. Know what they’re charging, sure, but negotiating using online prices can put LGS’s on the defensive. Instead, just decide what you want to pay based on online and local and try to get close to that figure; without mentioning how you arrived at that figure.

Just my $.02

 

[dirtykid]

Yea, any time people approach me with "found it on-line for this much" I ask them why they didnt buy it there,,, usual response "well i just thought i'd check around to see how much you guys charge" Shuts me down right away,, i could care less how much you found it on-line for,, I am aware that people set-up a warehouse with a laptop in it and sell stuff out of it,, but then they also dont have to be there to answer questions or assist with problems after the sale should there be any,,IMO wrong way to approach a small-business owner,, the internet is a serious threat to small business's in the aspect that it "cheapens" everything down to the point people EXPECT you to match E-bay's price AND provide excellent customer service ALSO ,, you cant have both...

 

[kingpin008]

I usually dont respond in those cases either. If you want buds prices you should go through buds. If you want to support your local gun shop, go to your local gun shop. Just my personal opinion.

Why wouldn't you respond? A few sentences explaining your inability to match the price would go a long way towards convincing someone you're worth doing business with. If you call or email me back and let me know that you just can't compete with their gun prices, I can dig that. I will likely be back for ammo, a holster, whatever.

But if you ignore me, not only will I not be back, I'll be letting my friends know about the fella who runs the small shop down the way who can't be bothered to respond to a simple request.

An email isn’t really a commitment to purchase.

True, but it shows interest - and when you specifically asked the guy to give you a chance, why in the world wouldn't you at least follow up on it? If you can't meet the price, fine - but there's more money to be made from an individual if you're straight up with them and keep them informed of your abilities/policies.

If it were me, I would have sent an email back explaining that I couldn't match the price, but would be happy to knock five or ten percent off his first purchase at my shop to make up for it. That way I he gets something of value, I still make some money, and I very likely gain a return customer. All for five minutes worth of work.

The fact that most business people here don't seem to understand the importance of return business is somewhat bewildering to me...

 

[DAP90]

True, but it shows interest

As I said, he did deserve a response. It's hard to get business otherwise.

On the other hand email is not a great way to start a business relationship. It shows interest but not a whole lot. I imagine gun stores get tons of email inquiries that don't go anywhere.

It's a local store. Drive on down and put a face with your name. That's why the guy opened a local store.

If it's just a case of bad customer service then move on and don't look back. Personally, I don't have any patience with bad service at a gun store and there are several near me I avoid.

 

[kingpin008]

It's a local store. Drive on down and put a face with your name. That's why the guy opened a local store.

He already knew the face and name though, he schmoozed with the guy and had mutual friends.

I guess the way I look at it is like this: the shop owner solicited his business, the OP gave him a chance at that business, and the shop owner dropped the ball. While the OP could have done more, why should he have to?

In general, it seems to me that the prevailing attitude among small business owners these days is one of "I'm doing you a favor by being in business. Take it or leave it." While that may be true in some instances, it's a really crappy way to do business. There will always be other places to shop, and some some shop owners would do well to remember that, IMHO.

 

[DammitBoy]

When I go to my favorite LGS and ask for a price, he goes online and we look at the screen together. It takes mere seconds to see their price to him, including shipping, he tacks $50 on and I make the purchase.

It doesn't get much better than that.

 

[DAP90]

I guess the way I look at it is like this: the shop owner solicited his business, the OP gave him a chance at that business, and the shop owner dropped the ball. While the OP could have done more, why should he have to?

It’s tough at this point for me to continue with this discussion as ultimately, you are correct. The business owner did drop the ball. The thing is we don’t know why he did so.

Maybe he didn’t remember that the guy in the store was the same guy that sent the email in question. Maybe he thought he’d never compete on price and this was a lost cause. Maybe he’s lazy, or busy or anachronistic in regards to email.

For me, if I’m dealing with a local store I go to the local store. I rarely even call unless it’s across town and I have to know sooner than I can get there. I just think you can get better results in the store than with other forms of communication. Assuming of course the store cares about customer service at all; and not all of them do.

I wouldn't consider failure to respond to a single email enough to never try anything else. I go in, see what kind of response I got and make a decision to do business with him based on that.

 

[Dulvarian]

This might explain my irritation over the deal a little more. This is copy of the email, with names changed. This was sent one week after I was at the store in person. I got an I'll look into it response an hour later.

<Manager>,

I came in and spoke to you last Friday about a CZ-527 and you asked that I give you a shot before I went ahead and ordered. (I'm the guy that mentioned <mutual acquaintance>).

Bottom of the cost line is Bud's @ $557. (I know you can't match that, I don't expect you to.)

It looks like the average is about $590 and change.

Please let me know what you can do. I'm ready to buy, but waiting to hear back from you before I order anything. (And yes, I am well aware of how pricing works for high volume/low margin internet sales + plus shipping + FFL fee. I have been buying most of my guns online because I cannot stand the 30-40% mark-up at <Other LGS>.)

And to ensure that we are on the same page, I'm looking at a CZ 527 Varmint with Walnut stock, in .223 with a 1/9 twist (CZ SKU 03042). The twist is important because I shoot heavier rounds (62gr to 69gr).

v/r,
<Dulvarian>


Personally, I think that I am going to go with Bud's, the local gunsmith I normally use that only charges military half of what the above LGS asks for transfers and spend the difference getting a nicer optic. (Which is kind of a requirement, since a 527 Varmint does not have irons.) Now, for the same money, I can get a much nicer glass.

Thanks for your replies. I do believe in supporting local business. But, you kind of have to earn my money. I'm not a non-profit charity. I went through the same deal with roofers a year ago. I called 4 people, and only 1 showed up. Guess who got a check for 5k? In an economy like this, I have no comprehension of business(persons) not handling something.

 

[Jimbofett]

I think everyone here has a valid point/opinion. Being in the business, I run into this occasionally. Here is what is happening from my end most of the time: I get an email or call wanting to know what's the best price we can give or can we meet such and such a price. We are constrained by the MAP (minimum advertised price) that each manufacturer/distributor sets. If you use your High Road password on our site, you will see those prices. Sometimes we have a little more flexibility, so we make a call or send an email. Usually we have an answer right away and can communicate that to our customer. Sometimes we never get an answer, so we stop dealing with those companies. Anyway, we contact the customer and let him know. Maybe he buys, maybe he doesn't, maybe he was from a competitor and doing a little fishing. Its all part of the business, but you must communicate as promptly as possible. Hope this helps!

Jim
Shooter Tactical

 

[gdcpony]

I was upfront with my archery shop owner last year and told him I couldn't afford a certain bow new, but maybe next (this) year. Well, he called me two days later and told me he knew of one used and made arrangements for both of us to meet right there in his shop. Well, sure enough the price was right and a deal was made. How did that profit him? I ordered new arrows through him, a set of strings for the bow, two sets of strings for my kids' bows, and the seller turned to him handed him the money for a 3-D target (which also surprised him). Oh, and he already had me as a customer for life, but if he hadn't he would have earned it right there.

Many owners are somewhat short sighted. Even if it was a small sale (I don't know the profit margin on firearms), it is the follow up business that really makes the money especially for a small company. The word of mouth, future sales, and just having the reputation can lead to more sales than that one gun.

I would have replied ASAP and set a time if I needed to to get back with you. Maybe he did just forget or delete it, so give him another chance, but let him know you were waiting on him.

 

[woad_yurt]

If I can't get a response regarding a potential sale, I can only imagine how hard it would be to get a response regarding any problem post sale, when there's no money involved. New business or old, big or small, if you want my money, I at least deserve an answer.

Regarding the "geek factor" statements:
Before there was ever an internet or email, there was the ol' Post-It note. Even earlier, there was the pencil, paper and to-do list. If there's something which I simply must not forget, I'll put a reminder in a place I'm sure to notice, like on my bathroom mirror or on the driver's seat in my vehicle. It's not rocket science.

 

[D94R]

Yea, any time people approach me with "found it on-line for this much" I ask them why they didnt buy it there,,, usual response "well i just thought i'd check around to see how much you guys charge" Shuts me down right away,, i could care less how much you found it on-line for,, I am aware that people set-up a warehouse with a laptop in it and sell stuff out of it,, but then they also dont have to be there to answer questions or assist with problems after the sale should there be any,,IMO wrong way to approach a small-business owner,, the internet is a serious threat to small business's in the aspect that it "cheapens" everything down to the point people EXPECT you to match E-bay's price AND provide excellent customer service ALSO ,, you cant have both...

Negotiating is a tactic. Having high, low, and average prices for an item is being informed as the customer so you don't get taken for a ride with their prices. It's just like buying a car, they have room to dicker the cost. They'll make it sound like they are eating their shirt with everything you offer them below what they mark the price as, but they always have room to work with you.

About "being there" for the customer, I have yet to buy a gun from a shop who performed work on the gun if there were any issues with it. That's what manufacturer warranty is for and covers. Sure they might be the middle man for it all, but that's it. They'll be there to say, "Bummer dude,... how bout I ship it back to XXXXX for you for the warranty." They won't do much more though and risk voiding warranty, or their name and business if they botch a high dollar gun.


As well, you might reread and notice that I stated I did not expect him to match the online price. I told him if he can get it to close to what the total would be for with shipping and transfer fee from the online place then I'd rather keep the business with him. That way, he makes more than just the transfer fee on the gun. Otherwise, if he couldn't then I'd just use him for the transfer. $50 on a gun beats a $20 transfer fee by $30 EVERY time, the math doesn't lie. This wasn't a special order either where he doesn't get a break from the Manufacturer, he is in fact a RIA dealer (he unfortunately carries little stock and only orders from manufacturer. Again, thats not my problem as the customer). If you proudly state that you carry something, then you should expect to compete in pricing because you are not the only place to carry it.

 

[NMGonzo]

You are overthinking this.

Get the gun you want from this guy and get on with it already.
50 dollars difference is the price I pay?

Worth it to keep the guy in business and the service there when I need it.

Your perceived savings are going out the window the second you have to ship the gun for something or another.

Besides, you can inspect the gun all you want before forking over the cash.

Geez.

 

[SSN Vet]

well... it is a free country (for now at least) and that is a beautiful thing...

You can call Buds (and see how long they keep you on hold, if they even pick up the phone at all).

and he can opt out of playing the "can you match the rock bottom lowest price in the country" game.

Maybe he'll learn to bend over backwards for the customer at every opportunity....

and maybe he's doing that right now for all the customers standing at his counter and is to busy to get back to you....

the single most difficlut issue for any small business is cash flow.. but close behind it is the difficulty of managing growth. IMHO, slow and steady, without borrowing money is the key.....

 

[MikeNice]

Yea, any time people approach me with "found it on-line for this much" I ask them why they didnt buy it there,,, usual response "well i just thought i'd check around to see how much you guys charge" Shuts me down right away,, i could care less how much you found it on-line for,, I am aware that people set-up a warehouse with a laptop in it and sell stuff out of it,, but then they also dont have to be there to answer questions or assist with problems after the sale should there be any,,IMO wrong way to approach a small-business owner,, the internet is a serious threat to small business's in the aspect that it "cheapens" everything down to the point people EXPECT you to match E-bay's price AND provide excellent customer service ALSO ,, you cant have both...

This hit it right on the head. I ran my own business for a while. I was in the audio and video industry. I got tired of people asking me if I could record their album for fifty bucks an hour. They want their album to sound like "The Dark Side Of The Moon." Yet, they only want to spend $2,000 to do it.

Any time I heard, "but I can buy pro tools and a computer for that" or "my friend knows a guy with a studio in his garage that charges a hundred bucks a day," I told them to go to those guys.

If you want to pay less you will get less one way or another. Joe in his garage might record you a project for $200. What will it sound like? Does he have any formal music experience or education? Can he tell you why that three minute guitar solo would be better at 45 seconds? Can he help point you in the direction of club owners that pay for bands?

If you want good customer service, and extra "perks" you might not think of, you pay for it. If you just want the cheapest price, don't expect all of the extra stuff. By saying "hey if you match Bud's I'll buy it" you actually insult the person. It is like saying all of their time and knowledge isn't worth anything.

Check Gun Genie for the lowest prices in your area. Ask him if he can compete with the two lowest. That lets him know that your are shopping amongst stores in relatively similar situations. You are comparing brick and mortar against brick and mortar. You aren't asking him to compete with a drop shipper that may or may not even have the time to answer the phone.

 

[Dulvarian]

I would think that saying:

"I know you can't match this, and I don't expect you to" is a pretty reasonable wording, without being insulting.

 

[rstull85]

Kingpin, I don't know if I was clear. I am not an FFL, I was comparing th OP's current situation to experiences on armslist and gunlisting. I have just about given up on those sites because of all of the bull crap on those sites but thats for another thread. The internet does screw over most of local guys. They cant compete with buds prices but I don't think buds is going to mount your scope, bore site it or have the experience and knowledge just waiting to help you make a more informed decision. Something else to consider also, you have to have your firearm sent to an FFL, if buds puts all the LGS out of business where are you going to have buds send your new gun?

 

[rellascout]

This hit it right on the head. I ran my own business for a while. I was in the audio and video industry. I got tired of people asking me if I could record their album for fifty bucks an hour. They want their album to sound like "The Dark Side Of The Moon." Yet, they only want to spend $2,000 to do it.

Any time I heard, "but I can buy pro tools and a computer for that" or "my friend knows a guy with a studio in his garage that charges a hundred bucks a day," I told them to go to those guys.

If you want to pay less you will get less one way or another. Joe in his garage might record you a project for $200. What will it sound like? Does he have any formal music experience or education? Can he tell you why that three minute guitar solo would be better at 45 seconds? Can he help point you in the direction of club owners that pay for bands?

This is not a good analogy IMHO. You are using an example where the 2 end products will differ. Your recording will be better than Joe's Garage, not better than Frank Zappa's Joe's Garage. Killer record its all about the intonation. LOL

You have put more time and money into your business to get better results for your customer and they should if they want the better product pay you more for your services. You analogy would apply if we were talking about gun smithing.

This does not apply to purchasing a handgun. IMHO. Local store here wanted $479 for a Kahr CW9. Bud's sold it to me for $370 shipped. I paid $10 for the transfer. If you look on GB or any gun site classified you will find CW9s NIB for under $400. What would be the difference between the $479 PW9 from the local dealer vs Buds? I am going to get the exact same pistol. Same box, 1 mag. Manual etc.... if something goes wrong the local shop is not going to touch it. They are going at best send it back to Kahr for me. Kahr is going to pay the shipping either way. I am at a loss as to what "value" I am getting for my additional $100?

People always claim that the internet kills small business. Yet some of the biggest business in the world were micro businesses and used the internet to become what they are. Retail is changing. It is a new marketplace and either you adopt or you go out of business. Clinging to the old way inspite of new market factors, a new competitor or a new market is not smart. IMHO it is counter to the free market which retailers are engaging in. It used to be the big ate the small. In todays markets the fast run over the slow. Paying $50 more than you have to at the LGS is not going to change that.

 

[mgkdrgn]

Doesnt the state have a Use Tax that would obligate the buyer to pay for any item purchased out of state and brought it?

You all are missing the point.

When I sell to my local customer, I must =collect= sales tax on that sale. Customer doesn't care that it's tax or not ... it's still $ out of his pocket. Buds has an instant 7% advantage because they -do not- collect sales tax on interstate sales.

Lets say they want to buy:

Taurus 2856021 M856 38SP FS 2" 6R Blued

My cost on that is $285. If I mark it up as much as I charge for a transfer ($20), we are now at $305. Add 7% to that and I'm at $326.35. Buds sells it for $324, shipped. I'm making less on this sale that the state does (with their sales tax), and once I pay income taxes on what I "made" I'm only going to make 1/2 of that.

If Buds had to collect sales tax on their $324, their cost to the customer would be $347, not $324. $347 I could compete with ... but not $324 (at least not and stay in business).

 

[david58]

When I'm sold out of guns I have the lowest prices on them too

No wonder he won't get back to you. I wouldn't either.

And neither he nor you get any business from that Customer of any kind - you wrote him off by not taking 2 minutes to type up a reply. I note a lot of dealers take offense at a lower offer, almost as though you were negotiating over one of their pets. Retail is changing, you MUST compete with the internet or you will lose! Sometimes it's with price, other times service, but in all cases attitude will break a sale faster than anything. And if a LGS owner things his attitude is undetectable, I got news for you! Too many non-jerks, internet and LGS, to deal with jerks, of the internet or the LGS type.

 

[NMGonzo]

If they buy from Bud's they can call Bud's when they have a problem.

 

[MikeNice]

Rella, I can see how it would be off for most stores. Good stores will show you the difference though. The store I deal with is usually worth the extra money. I pay a little more, but I also get some perks.

The owner ran across some surplus 7.62x45 ammo at an estate sale. He remembered that my dad has a VZ 52 rifle. He picked up all of the ammo and then called me. He sold it to me for what he paid. It came out to about $6 a box. I haven't found anybody selling that ammo for less than $5 a bullet in a while.

Yeah I paid $50 more for a gun. I also saved more than that on nearly impossible to find ammo. A good shop will come through if you build a good relationship with them.

 

[rellascout]

Rella, I can see how it would be off for most stores. Good stores will show you the difference though. The store I deal with is usually worth the extra money. I pay a little more, but I also get some perks.

The owner ran across some surplus 7.62x45 ammo at an estate sale. He remembered that my dad has a VZ 52 rifle. He picked up all of the ammo and then called me. He sold it to me for what he paid. It came out to about $6 a box. I haven't found anybody selling that ammo for less than $5 a bullet in a while.

Yeah I paid $50 more for a gun. I also saved more than that on nearly impossible to find ammo. A good shop will come through if you build a good relationship with them.

I agree with you. I have had great relationships with every transfer dealer I have ever used. I pay them for their time and I also buy other stuff from them. Ammo, accessories, clothing, hats, range bags etc.... In the end they probably make more $$$ on the other stuff I buy from them vs what they would make on a transfer.

The reality is that the margin on guns is so thin if you are trying to survive on that alone you will not make it or you will price yourself out of the market.

If you are not doing those extra things as a retailer than you cannot expect people to pay more. You cannot complain when you loose customers. Again adapt and change or get out. I ran a small business for almost 10 years. I was never the cheapest. I always charged a fair price and could justify why I was more than the lowest price they could find. Some people agreed and became our customers others did not. That is the nature of the free market.

 

[JimG2]

I kinda don't see what the gripe is about. You have a guy who's trying to run a business, to make a profit, pay his salary, salaries for any employees he may have, rent on his retail space, pay his mortgage, his liability insurance on his business, his health insurance, taxes, etc. For every "friend of an aquaintance" looking to nickel and dime him and waste his valuable time to make next to nothing on a transfer sale, he probably gets 30 people in the front door who buy at retail out of his inventory.

I probably wouldn't have replied to the email either. I'm in sales (non-retail) and I spend the bulk of my time with my good paying customers who value service over cheap price. I hear all the time "XX is cheaper than you", but I also hear "the service from XX sucks, here is your purchase order".

I don't understand why anybody would do transfers for $10 or $20 either. You have to send out an FFL if the source doesn't have one on file, you receive the item, store the item until the buyer comes to pick it up, then you have 30 minutes of paperwork to do. Transfers here average $50, which seems reasonable to me for the time involved.