Can you shoot them all good?

[Deaf Smith]

Simple. A boat with 10 one inch holes in it will sink faster than the same boat with one one inch hole in it. The more holes in a body the faster the blood bleeds out.

And a compartmentalized boat sinks faster if the one inch hole is where the water can flood the most.

Shot placement is the most important thing, not the number of random holes in the target.

Deaf

 

[45_auto]

Simple. A boat with 10 one inch holes in it will sink faster than the same boat with one one inch hole in it. The more holes in a body the faster the blood bleeds out.

As Deaf Smith above pointed out to you in the post above, the placement of the holes is the important thing.

I believe that it's been pretty well established for many years that a single hole in your heart will bleed you out much faster than an equivalently sized hole in each toe or in each finger.

A good example is the notorious Miami shootout, where Michael Platt was hit 12 times and still managed to kill 2 FBI agents. It basically drove the FBI to develop the 10mm (then from that, the .40 S&W) because a 9mm hit early in the fight didn't quite penetrate far enough to reach Platt's heart and put him down.

 

[David E]

It basically drove the FBI to develop the 10mm (then from that, the .40 S&W) because a 9mm hit early in the fight didn't quite penetrate far enough to reach Platt's heart and put him down.

The 10mm existed prior to getting attention from the FBI. The 10mm originated from the work of Jeff Cooper in the early 70's

The 9mm Silvertip delivered an unsurvivable wound, but it was not immediately incapacitating. The FBI blamed a single bullet for that shootout instead of a host of tactical mistakes and HUA decisions.

The .40 was not developed by the FBI.

 

[Queen_of_Thunder]

As Deaf Smith above pointed out to you in the post above, the placement of the holes is the important thing.

I believe that it's been pretty well established for many years that a single hole in your heart will bleed you out much faster than an equivalently sized hole in each toe or in each finger.

A good example is the notorious Miami shootout, where Michael Platt was hit 12 times and still managed to kill 2 FBI agents. It basically drove the FBI to develop the 10mm (then from that, the .40 S&W) because a 9mm hit early in the fight didn't quite penetrate far enough to reach Platt's heart and put him down.

Lets be honest here. We don't train for heart shots in a self defense situation. We train for center mass. By the time you line up a heart shot one can put 10 rounds in the center mass of the target. Your chance of getting off a shot is very small and you probably end up dead yourself and the attacker walking away.Ten rounds in the chest and abdomen means taking out several major organs not to mention several major arteries.

 

[David E]

There is a balance between hitting fast and hitting well. I'd take a fast hit in the kneecap (with multiple follow up shots) over a perfect heart shot one second later.

It's not exceptionally difficult to hit well fast, but it takes know-how, practice and skill.

 

[mavracer]

Lets be honest here. We don't train for heart shots in a self defense situation. We train for center mass.

You may train to spray the entire B27, I certainly don't and I know others here don't either.

 

[MarshallDodge]

Lets be honest here. We don't train for heart shots in a self defense situation. We train for center mass. By the time you line up a heart shot one can put 10 rounds in the center mass of the target. Your chance of getting off a shot is very small and you probably end up dead yourself and the attacker walking away.Ten rounds in the chest and abdomen means taking out several major organs not to mention several major arteries.

So dimensionally, what is center of mass to you?

How much time is enough to put 10 rounds into that dimension?

 

[Ankeny]

By the time you line up a heart shot one can put 10 rounds in the center mass of the target.

I imagine that is just a figure of speech.

 

[HKGuns]

Everyone is different, there is no single answer to this question. Everyone has different capabilities to adapt, different levels of intelligence (Yes there are some pretty stupid people out there) and physical capabilities.

 

[JRS950]

My two carry weapons are similar, not the same, but very similar in size and grip. Practice with them more than the others. Seems to be working for me.

 

[David E]

Everyone is different, there is no single answer to this question.

I disagree. If there is a basic standard to achieve, then it's clear to see if they're "good enough" with a particular gun.

The hard part is agreeing on a basic standard. I think it's worthy pursuit and means much more than someone naively declaring they "feel" confident in their ability, especially when they can't recall the last time they shot the gun they're carrying.

The standard should involve a realistic distance, acceptable accuracy and enough speed. Of these, distance is the easiest to agree upon, but acceptable accuracy ranges from a golf ball to the entire black of a B-27 target.

Speed ranges from meaningless descriptions like "as fast as necessary," or "as fast as I can," to a lethargic time frame that has no bearing whatsoever in a defensive shooting situation. (The 5x5 and 3-3-3 drills come to mind)

I posted my drill and some folks didn't like it, but I don't recall them offering a viable alternative.

I'll even modify it: gun in hand at low ready. At signal, fire at a sheet of typing paper OR paper plate until two rounds hit. Two seconds max, but can shoot as many rounds as needed to get your two hits....but two seconds maximum time, regardless of rounds fired.

 

[mavracer]

I'll even modify it: gun in hand at low ready. At signal, fire at a sheet of typing paper OR paper plate until two rounds hit. Two seconds max, but can shoot as many rounds as needed to get your two hits....but two seconds maximum time, regardless of rounds fired.

So which is the standard?
Typing paper or paper plate?
2.0 sec from low ready or 2.5 from holster?
How can 2.5 sec be good enough if 2.5 sec can be to slow to survive?

 

[David E]

So which is the standard?
Typing paper or paper plate?
2.0 sec from low ready or 2.5 from holster?
How can 2.5 sec be good enough if 2.5 sec can be to slow to survive?

LOL! Wow, are you predictable!

Retread the post.

Feel free to offer your own skill drill.

 

[mavracer]

Retread the post.

I've read it intirely
I understand your point anyone that can't make your standard is in your opinion not "good enough".

 

[Zaydok Allen]

You know I think what my indicator for whether or not I use a gun in my inventory for defense is if I have to look at the gun even once while at the range, then I am not yet familiar enough with it.

Once I can pick a gun up and my hands instinctually turn the safety off (if it has one), and make ready, AND it points naturally, then it will serve a HD, SD role.

Not before. Introducing too many different options could confuse things. Your memory and training will tell you how many is too many.

 

[David E]

I've read it intirely (SP)
I understand your point anyone that can't make your standard is in your opinion not "good enough".

You must've missed the rest of the post that wasn't about the drill itself, not to mention the word "modify."

It's interesting that you cannot post a drill that meets your standards, whatever they may be, if any.

The modified drill is very easy, even with a sightless .380. I recognize it's a low standard, but at least it's something to, pardon me, shoot for.

Any drill that lacks specific parameters is useless.

If you have another drill or standard, we anxiously await your contribution.

 

[mavracer]

It's interesting that you cannot post a drill that meets your standards, whatever they may be, if any.

Apparently you are the one that needs a retread, why would I have a standard for "good enough" when it's quite clear I think "good enough" is something that can't be defined?

The modified drill is very easy, even with a sightless .380. I recognize it's a low standard, but at least it's something to, pardon me, shoot for.

again
How can 2 shots in 2 sec be "good enough", when 2 shots in 2 sec may well be "not good enough" to survive?

 

[Ankeny]

I feel a person is well served by developing some kind of standards to work towards as far as handgun proficiency. When those standards are met,either raise the bar, or settle for "good enough". It really is a simple concept.

What others think of your shooting ability is really not the issue. Frankly, I would cut the time listed in David E's modified drill in half. Whether or not you can meet my standard is of no concern to me.

 

[MarshallDodge]

Like I said earlier, "good enough" is when you can win at a competition or stop the threat before they have a chance to stop you. If neither of these is a priority then move on. It is difficult not to judge others by your own standards but I still think everyone that is in competition or carries for defensive purposes should have a goal to achieve.

Jumping from gun to gun made it harder for me to attain my goals. The more time I spent shooting the same gun, the more automatic everything became, and brought me closer to my goal.

I have heard it said several times that your groups will double in size when you are put under stress. Fumbling with a new gun that you have spent very little time with is also a possibility under these conditions.

 

[camsdaddy]

Can not good enough be defined?

 

[mavracer]

Like I said earlier, "good enough" is when you can win at a competition or stop the threat before they have a chance to stop you.

Like was pointed out very early in this thread. That depends on who shows up. Being realistic as to the fact that I may not be good enough, does not mean I don't care. No need to get upset for people pointing that out.

 

[MarshallDodge]

Can not good enough be defined?

If you took two normal people that had never owned or shot a gun, and asked them to shoot David E's drill, who would come out the winner?

If one of these people were a good guy, the other a bad guy with the intention of doing harm, and they met in a dark alley, which would win?

My goal is to be a good guy that is trained to have the upper hand if the time ever came.

The goals I use are:

Slow fire: Consistently hit a 3x5 card at 25 yards.

Timed: Draw and hit a 3x5 card at 21 feet in under 2 seconds.

I did not start at this level but have progressed as my shooting improved. You can start at a closer distance or adjust the time as needed.

 

[MCMXI]

If one of these people were a good guy, the other a bad guy with the intention of doing harm, and they met in a dark alley, which would win?

My goal is to be a good guy that is trained to have the upper hand if the time ever came.

The problem with this though is that the bad guy has a huge advantage over the good guy ... because he knows what he's going to do and when he's going to do it. This was the point of my "bad guys don't walk around with shot timers" comment.

 

[MarshallDodge]

The problem with this though is that the bad guy has a huge advantage over the good guy ... because he knows what he's going to do and when he's going to do it. This was the point of my "bad guys don't walk around with shot timers" comment.

No problem. We are on the same page and is why I raised the question.

Paper targets and shot timers are just a tool to let you measure what you are doing.

Shooting clay pigeons on the side of a dirt berm is fun but does it really tell you how accurate you are?

Drawing and firing your gun may seem fast or slow but you will never know unless you get out a timer.

 

[David E]

Apparently you are the one that needs a retread, why would I have a standard for "good enough" when it's quite clear I think "good enough" is something that can't be defined?

Clearly, we disagree.

again
How can 2 shots in 2 sec be "good enough", when 2 shots in 2 sec may well be "not good enough" to survive?

When, praytell, did I say there were any guarantees?

My easy skill test is NOT a guarantee! It is simply a proposed guideline to gauge your skill level with your chosen gun(s)!

How you come up with this stuff is amazing.