"Can't handle 9mm..."

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first off...

If you spend any time at all shooting 357s out of an AirWeight or AirLite...you da man. I owned four of them, sold them all. I'm not really recoil-sensitive, but I'm not 20-something anymore, either...

Next, I had my buddy's GF at the range Friday. She was very reluctant to even step up to the firing line. I had brought two 22s (S&W revolver and Ruger MkII) and after she watched me for a while, I finally talked her into giving it a try.

I moved the target in to 9', showed her that the revolver was empty, showed her how to get a good two-hand grip, had her point it at the target. I cocked it, told her to get a good sight picture, and squeeze the trigger. Snap. She looked at me and smiled. We did it again. I asked her if she wanted to try one round, she did.

I put one in the cylinder, had her get her grip, I cocked it, she got her sight picture, and...bang. Hit the paper, within the black. Just barely, but it brought another smile. Did the same thing a few more times, and her aim was improving.

She was complaining about the weight, though, so we took a break and then started again, repeating the drill with the MkII. Empty, then one round, then three. Then six. Finally ten. She was putting a lot of holes in the black with the Ruger and liked it a lot better than the revolver.

Put up a fresh target and let her run through a few more mags. Big smiles and some take-home targets. :)

We quit shortly thereafter; I wanted to end it on a high note.

My money is that she will be asking hubby to take her to the range again soon...and I have an idea what she wants for Christmas :)

My point is, never overestimate a new shooter, and never allow the experience to become uncomfortable/unpleasant.

Hell, I've been shooting a while, and with the price of ammo these days, I figure those 22s are going to pay for themselves pretty quick...

One hundred rounds of .22 followed by 25-50 rounds of .38/.357/.45 costs 1/3 to 1/2 of what it would (and did) cost me to shoot centerfire only.

The added bonus is, shooting .22 is making me a better shooter :)
 
My friend's background:

Does the person have a physical problem that must be dealt with? Example: Arthritis, injury, carpal tunnel, etc.

Nope.. in fact, we're both boxers, so his hands are quite strong and in good condition. He's in excellent physical shape - the kid looks like a Greek statue. I wish I had his shape, that's for sure.

What are the person's shooting experiences? Did some idiot start a newbie off with a .454 Casull (it happens) and there are residual effects that need to be resolved?

New Years, 2000.. He'd just bought his Glock 21 a week earlier, and decided to shoot it for the first time. He fired into the air, and a look came over his face I'd never seen before. At this time, I'd never owned or shot a .45, so I just assumed the power shocked him a little bit.

Fast forward almost 6 years. He's never shot that Glock again. I have no idea why he bought it, except maybe he just wanted to be a tough guy. :cool: He has no ammunition for it, he's never cleaned it... I cleaned it for him before we went to the range that day - his first time ever going to a range. He still refused to take it. Maybe he scared himself or something all those years ago.

Does the handgun fit the person or is he/she just barely hanging on to it and has no real control, finger barely reaches the trigger, etc. Does the person have a proper grip on the handgun?

He chose the XD because it was the most similar to a Glock. They had a G17 and G19 he could have rented, but for whatever reason he went with the XD.

I noticed he was doing the Hollywood grip - you know, the one where the person cups the bottom of the grip/mag in their hand? I corrected him as often as possible (and as nice as possible), and he would do a little better for a short time, then go right back to the Hollywood grip.

It wasn't the fact that he flinched, it was the amount of flinching that I found intriguing. I expected some flinching, just not as severe as it was. Afterwards he just opined about how hard it was to shoot a pistol, and that he never expected it to be that difficult.

"I told you, you d***. What, did you think I spend every weekend at the range just to get my guns dirty?" :D I'll explain why I said that to him later.

Training? Did the person start off with a low-recoil caliber or air pistol and work up from there? Was there any training at all? Does the person have a familiarity with handguns and is comfortable with them?

He pretended to, and I think that's what all the embarrasment was about.

This kid and I grew up together. He's always been somewhat of a tough guy. He was the first one of us who could legally buy a gun, and did so as soon as he turned 21. I spoke earlier about his first time and only time shooting it.

Fast forward to last year. I've been shooting regularly for a couple of years now. I get my CCW and join THR. I increase my reading, training, and shooting. I'm becoming the "go to" guy for advice, for all my friends who like guns. Me and this friend start school together.

Guns are the talk of choice at lunchtime and cigarette breaks among the guys at school. He and another guy (who was a felon and can't own guns) act annoyed whenever the topic comes up. I notice this, and ask him to come to a range with me.

"I don't have time for that s#*@."

He starts hanging out with said felon on the weekends. I go to the range w/my girlfriend, like always. I ask a few more times, and always get that same harsh BS response. "I don't have time for that s#%!"

So I stop asking.

One day he asks why I don't hang out with him and Mr. Felon - I reply I'm too busy practicing something useful to go out of town and get drunk every weekend with some criminal who thinks he's a tough guy. He asks why I never ask him to go to the range anymore. I reply that I'm tired of being treated like a jerk for offering to pay to teach someone something they should want to know anyway, since they're a gunowner and all. That seemed to provoke thought.

I extend one more invitation, and inform him that if he acts like a jerk about it, I'll never ask again. He takes me up on it this time. We go over safety, how to run the different types of guns I own, all seems fine and good. We get to the range, and he doesn't do so hot.

Well, what a surprise! Turns out you can't just throw a gun under your mattress for 6 years, then pick it up and shoot 4-leaf clovers. During our little bouts over going to the range, he'd day things like "I don't need to practice to shoot someone in my house." And he was always a jerk about it, like he resented someone telling him that simply owning a gun is not enough, and that he needs to practice.

On a few occasions when heading out to town to see Mr. Felon, he'd take his loaded gun, and transport it completely illegally. Basically, he was carrying without a license. When I told him he should look into getting his CCW so he wouldn't get in trouble, he'd do the same thing - turn into a jerk and start an argument about what he didn't need to do. It was like he was doing it intentionally, just to piss me off, and act like I was some kind of gun-nut psycho for wanting a CCW (I never told him I got my carry permit, for obvious reasons).

Frankly, I'd had enough of his crap and wanted to teach him a somewhat humbling lesson. When we got to the range, the first thing I did was hand him a mag, and some ammo, and set the target out to 15 feet.

"So what do I do?" He asks...

"Nah homie, you're the one who told me he could hit someone without any training... You show ME what to do... This guy's in your house. Show me you can really back up all that s#@% you talked at school and hit the target."

I smile a sarcastic smile, and let him shoot his 15 rounds. We pull the paper back on a full-sized silhouette target, and there isn't a single mark on it. He looks baffled, like he can't believe that happened. I manage to hide it, but there's this insatiable satisfaction... I've knocked him off his high horse, and proved my point... THIS ISN'T HOLLYWOOD, AND SHOOTING A GUN AIN'T EASY. To drive the point home, I put his target back out, and inserted another mag. I dumped all 15 rounds right into the chest of the target, one hand rapid fire. I bring the target back, and he looks like he's seen a ghost.

"Practice, my friend... That's what I've been telling you. The only difference between the way you shoot and the way I shoot is practice." Hence, my response to his stupid statement on the way home. I figured it was high time that the cynicism come from me, for once.

As soon as I proved my point, I apologized - and told him that I didn't mean to bust his bubble, so to speak - but that he had to learn that lesson for himself because he just wouldn't listen before. He admitted that it was scary knowing that this whole time he had that gun, he was still completely incapable of defending himself. We had somewhat of a heart-to-heart about the way he'd acted at school. All seemed good. We finished out the day, and at the end, he was actually putting all of his rounds into the target. The range session ended when I let him shoot my .357Sig - which he asked to do, but apparently the recoil overwhelmed him, and we'd probably shot a good 500 rounds of 9mm before I let him shoot the Sig. His confidence was up, and he told me it was the most fun he'd ever had.

Next week, when I called to see if he wanted to go again...

"I ain't got time for that s#!%."

I'm sure you can tell we don't hang out anymore. :rolleyes:

That was the last time I called him. This trip to the range, and his attitude are what inspired the thread, basically. Ironically, tough guy is the only one who had problems with the 9mm. All the other new shooters I've taught personally were not tough guys (or girls), but yet they all did so much better shooting all of my guns, not just the 9mm... so maybe it's a tough guy thing in some sense.

I just found it funny that the cockiest person I ever met happens to be the one with the least tolerance for recoil. But then recently here on THR, I've noticed some of our members saying the same thing. So here I am, asking what you folks think of this phenomena - and I'm glad all of you have taken time to answer. Thanks again. I'll shut up now since I seem to have written a books worth of information about my half-ass anti friend and our trip to the range.

Thoughts on how I handled that experience are welcome as well... I realize that letting him prove my point with his poor shooting might not have helped, but I felt it was necessary given his attitude. FWIW, I'd never do something like that to a new shooter who simply wanted to learn, but sometimes you just have to punch folks in the face with their own ignorance. Maybe I shouldn't have done that.
 
i have to chime in here cuz b/c i think i partially inspired this thread. as stated in the other forum, i am a novice shooter. i just picked up my 1st HG (an XD 9) about 2-3 weeks ago. prior to that i had about 1-2 hours of shooting experience. for the record, i am 36 and in good physical health (train with weghts for fitness and various other things). anyway, i think a lot of what Candiru stated makes sense concerning the comments of being "snap or shove" sensitive. the first HG i shot was a beretta cougar 45. i remeber thinking that it was cool as hell. other than the newness at what i was doing and wondering what i could do wrong, it felt very comfortable and i felt very relaxed. i, of course noticed the recoil (a push with a mild flip) but it wasn't unnerving. i then fired a beretta 9 mm (i don't know the model) and it didn't really feel a lot different but i remember i still felt more comfortable with the 45. at that time i didn't really understand why until i shot them both again recently. the 45 pushed and the 9 snapped, not as violently as my XD but definitely snapped. after having shot a couple of other 40's and 45's i realized that the push recoil doesn't bother me. it feels as if i can control it with little rebound or adjustment. my 9 on, otoh, feels squirrely as hell. i sometimes feel like i can't control it. it just cracks and feels like i am shaking uncontrollably rather than absorbing the blast. (i will ask the board member to comment in this thread who shot it recently to see what his impression was).

anyway, it just doesn't feel comfortable. i am going to try some different ammo and see if that makes a difference and some grip positions before i decide to buy something else. in the meantime, however, i am not too thrilled about returning to the range with it. i'll just have to work with it for a bit and hope that it works out. :banghead: :D
 
One thing that I have noticed after shooting 9mm. guns, the same 115 grain shot from any other semi-auto besides my HI-POWER feels the same. Out the HI-POWER it is noticebley louder and has more kick. Not uncontrolable at all, is there a reason for this? I also have a Ruger Black Hawk .357 MAG- 9mm. When I shoot the same 115 grain 9mm. from the revolver, it feels like a loud .22 LR.
 
Mike--

Having heard the full story, your patience far outweighs mine. It is one thing to have a problem and want to solve it, or not know how to solve it but be willing to listen.

Your "friend" displays none of those traits. Arrogance without the skill to back it up is really only bravado, and will not serve him well.

Anyone whose shooting experience starts with firing into the sky at night is on the wrong track.

You tried, but even DaVinci couldn't turn a turd into gold (or even lead, for that matter...)

Think he needs to have a talk with Chuck Norris :)
 
Hey cirrus!

Your thread was probably "the last straw," so to speak. Very partial inspiration, but you told us in the beginning you were a new shooter, so to me it makes more sense that you would be just learning what you like and don't like :)

You're right, Candiru makes an excellent point, one that I'd never really considered before. So did Correia about noise sensitivity rather than recoil sensitivity. You just seem to be one of those rare guys like me who likes the bigger stuff right off the bat. :) Nothing wrong with that! it still baffles me that you like the .40, and not the 9mm, but I can already say I like your style, sir! :D I hope you aren't taking any of this personally. I didn't start this post to bash anyone, I just really wanted some insight from other folks. Thank you for your post as well, it's really informative. I was hoping to hear from someone who had this problem personally.

I am curious about your XD... I wish you lived in Ohio so I could shoot it myself, I'm starting to think maybe yours just kicks harder than the average... FWIW, I have a 1911 like that. Every other 1911 or .45 I've shot is very easy to shoot, and very manageable in the recoil dept. My 1911, however, feels like it's ripping my hand off with every shot. I have no idea why. I shot another 1911 of the exact same make and model side by side when I first got it, and the difference was night and day. The other one was smooth and soft, mine ripped my hand off with every shot. Go figure.

I do hope that you learn to like your XD, if for nothing else because I think they're nice guns. But, should you choose to go with another caliber, the XD makes an awesome .45! :p

orionengnr: Thanks for the input :D Plenty of times over the course of this school year I wanted to punch him, but I figured he was my friend, and I should try to bring him to our side of the fence... I soon realized that this kid I hung out with for 14 years wasn't really my friend. Just a jerk with an attitude who likes to hang out with lowlife's and play tough-guy.

I wonder if I could get Chuck to have a talk with him, Texas Ranger style. :D
 
One thing I have noticed is the recoil problems seem to be intensified in a novice shooter when using a semi.

I am old school and bought a .357 Ruger Security Six as my first handgun. Practiced fast double action dry firing with both hands until I could snap 100 times without much slowing down. Great for training the muscles, and THEN started DA dry snapping without moving the sights.

Once I could do those things well, I started shooting and haven't looked back. Almost never shoot any DA pistol any way other than trigger cocking.

Novices with SA autos haven't the muscle tone or memory to squeeze the trigger without a tendency to flinch....which translates into lots of problems hitting.

I always recommend a 4-6".357 as a 'first gun' but am normally rebuffed as they are out of fashion. Still think most folks would be ahead of the game learning the DA revolver before progressing to the SA auto.
 
The first handgun I ever fired was a .22LR double action revolver, a very old High Standard Sentinel with a 6" barrel. I hated it then, because it was extremely loud (hello! no ear protection!). It was the noise that put me off more than anything else.

That was the only handgun I fired until I went to a range and rented a Ruger GP100 .357 Magnum. With plenty of hearing protection this time, I LOVED IT. I rented a Glock 17 later, and didn't like it at all. It's a different recoil impulse (up and back for revolver compared to up and back and forward again for the semi). It took me a couple of months with a Makarov (which really doesn't kick any more than a G17) before I learned what to expect from a semi-auto pistol. I still prefer 9x19 even though I can shoot larger caliber weapons and enjoy them.

The whole "shoot 9x19 if you can't shoot a manly caliber" would bother me if I let it. I don't.

jm
 
hey mike,


no damage done at all. i'm pretty thick skinned. i am finding this as interesting as you. i'm glad to find out that i'mnot such a wus and there are others like me. :D

i once lived a few miles form ohio but that will never be the case again. ;)

believe me, i'm already looking at 40's, 45's a revolver, a shotgun etc, etc, etc... :evil:
 
Two points

1- I bet its the noise, rather than the recoil. Im sure someone has mentioned this but double up on the hearing protection.

2- I dont have a huge amount of expierence but from what I do have women tend to learn how to shoot faster than guys do. The few women I have "shown the ropes" had learning to shoot be their goal and thus asked questions and tried their best. The few men I have tried to instruct either flat out dont want to be told what to do or if you do tell them will continue to do it "thier way", which is fine and all but at the end of the day they shot just as bad because they hadnt changed anything. Bottom line if its a male friend make sure hes actually doing what you are telling him to do and not just nodding along and trying to make "his way" work.


Edit:sorry only read the first half of page one. Most of this is written in ignorance, read the rest just now. What a dofus.
 
The only thing I can contribute to this is, if you are worried that starting someone on .22lr would be "too wimpy" then buy a box of CCI Stingers or some other high velocity .22LR and shoot them after breaking them in with cheap low power .22lr's. More pop, more snap, but still not near a 9mm would be.
 
Well...

I own a steel frame 9mm (cz 75b) a aluminum frame 9mm (beretta 9sfs) and have owned a polymer framed 9mm (usp which i alas sold due to economic issues)

All 3 had very different characteristics in terms of feedback while shooting. I find that the polymer frame is good for weight, but if they don't like the "feel" the steel frame tends to give the shooter more comfortable feedback.

It's not just the caliber, but the frame material and engineering. The USP had a 2nd recoil buffer spring, which helped a lot. The beretta actually has the worst feedback of the 3. (and that still isn't bad imo, i like(d) all 3 guns)

also a big +1 to emphasis on practice.
 
.22 are Great!!!

Some people (mostly the macho guy types) just can't be bothered with the lowly .22. I guess it just seems so, un-manly. Of course these are the same fellows who demand a 'forty' for their first shots and won't settle for less.

Even after classroom training (and showing they can do it right in the classroom), sometimes they still revert to the cup and saucer or homy style. It can get frustrating.

I typically use an advantage arms .22 kit with the Glock 17, or a Kimber .22 kit on a Custom Classic for the initial semi training, and a S&W 617 4" 10 shot for the revolver. Each is the same size, shape, weight and operation (with the exception of the lack of slide lock on the Kimber) of the full-power version. If I have a student that wants to learn, I can have them shooting full power loads on their own in about 15 minutes. If they insist on showing me how much they already know, it usually takes longer.

It's the ones that want to learn that keep me coming back.

-LeadPumper
 
muzzle snap

This is getting into the reloading threads a bit, but the type of characteristics of the ammunition has a lot to do with it. It's not just the bore size, but also the projectile and powder. I've fired 22, 9mm, and 40S&W, and 44mag, and the 40 has the most muzzle flip. The 44mag was in a Ruger Redhawk, so the weight was on my side (in fact, that short bit of fun got the bug in me). There was a lot of recoil, bot not muzzle-flip per se. The 9 I fired after practicing on a 40, so I had a lot of control, and it didn't feel at all uncontrollable.
Now, I usually fire 180gr CCI's from my 40, but I've tried a few different factory loads. They all feel mostly the same because they're all 180gr and have the fastest powder the factory can put in them accurately.
I rececently fired off a bunch of hand-loaded 135gr with a relatively slow powder. It felt like the 9mm and the muzzle-flip was almost gone.

Total point here is that a reduction in the projectile weight and powder characteristics can almost completely change the feel of the gun. If you have a snappy 9mm (like that Hi-Point), find yourself a lighter load and try that. Maybe it will help. Maybe not. It's just my thoughts.
 
Suggestion

My suggestion for new people that find 9mm recoil too alarming is for them to take a hundred rounds and just send them downrange without aiming, breath control, trigger squeeze and all that stuff. Just have them blast away. Let them just worry about getting used to the recoil and forget about all other considerations. Whenever I teach a newbie, I always let them just blast away their first magazine in this manner just to get used to the boom and recoil.
 
I like shooting .45's and .357's and even LSWCHP's out of a 442 more than 9mm. Oh well, I guess I'm just really big and slow.

John
 
"I hate to say it, but I blame TV and the movies. Pick whatever show/movie you want and they all make it look downright easy to fire a gun and take out BGs. I mean really, does Jack Bauer ever miss?"

Maybe these guys grew up watching the A-Team. Tens of thousands of rounds and nobody ever got hit!
 
Are there really people out there (folks w/serious health problems, or of older age excluded) who can't handle 9mm?

I'm one of those people

I'm only 44 but have done so much damage to my hands and wrists that I cannot handle the impact of a 9mm or even a .38 for any extended period.

They impact the small bones in my wrist and shooting as few as fifty rounds of .38 will leave my wrist swollen for at least a day.

It took a long time to get over the resulting flinch.

But I can shoot a 1911 all day and frequently have with absolutely no ill effects or pain
 
Seems entirely possible, even probable.

Personally, I've got a bit of arthritis. It only bothers me when I'm really tired and/or it's cold outside. 9mm jars my hands something aweful in such a situation; .45ACP doesn't do so as much - it's a more gradual recoil as opposed to sharp. So, for someone with perpetual arthritis or some other chronic pain, I can most certainly see how 9mm would be more uncomfortable than something else.

I still carry 9mm, though - partially because when it's not cold, I don't have the problem, the size/capacity, and because it doesn't bother me <i>all that much</i> - just afterwards, when my hands get chilled.
 
I am not a fan of polymer pistols in general, but especially for introducing novices to handguns.

My own experiences with various 9mm polymer framed handguns has been that they tend to exaggerate the *snap* recoil impulse of the 9mm. That, and the loss of weight in the grip, leading to the feeling that the center of gravity of the pistol is changing from the first shot to the last, is noticeably annoying. Plastic nines feel as if they are trying to squirm under my grip.

I can readily imagine that what annoys me about plastic nines could be downright unnerving for someone with far less firing experience.
 
This is not a new point but I'm in the camp of the recoil being different rather than excessive. I shoot both 9mm and .45 regularly, and plenty of other calibers sproadically when a group gets together.

I much prefer the type of recoil from a .45 - it pushes more than snaps. It's not a question of taking it - I go about 280 - but a question of it being a more comfortable feel and I get faster and better followups. I noticed the same thing with my nephew - a 6'3 240lb tight end novice shooter. He shot much better with a G30 than a G19 - he was spraying quite badly on the latter during strings, but was pretty deadly with the .45. I let him try my little PM9 with +P Gold Dots in it - the little thing was almost lost in his huge shovel hands but it snapped up like all get out every time he fired - just wasn't used to the feeling of muzzle flip. It takes some people longer to get used to than others, and counterintuitively a bigger caliber may help.
 
Once again-

Its not usually the recoil impulse, its the noise and concussion. Have you ever stood beside somebody while they shoot and blink everytime the gun goes off? Thats a flinch. Thats why people can't shoot handguns well. Double up on plugs/muffs.


Anthony
 
My wife hates shooting pistols, but loves to shoot revolvers. She says that the slide coming back at her face makes her flinch. This may be the problem in this case?
 
If you could have seen him shooting it, you would have thought I had handed him a Desert Eagle in .44 Mag or something.
Cousin Mike,
I read most of this thread and noticed nobody answered that comment so I will. I have shot the Desert Eagle in .44 Mag and was totally surprised when I squeezed of the first round I thought I was shooting a .22 short!! I quickly realized that the Desert Eagle was SO HEAVY that there was little to no perceived recoil. I soon after shot the .50 cal Desert Eagle with the same results.

Now for 9mm, I just do not like that round. I have shot a .44 Mag out of a 2.5" barrel and over 1000 rounds of .357 Mag out of my S&W 619 and prefer both to any 9mm. I bought my 19 year old son a Taurus Millennium Pro in 9mm and he loves shooting it, I just do not like a 9mm.

cirrus,
You and the others are correct, the 9mm is different than other rounds.

Short story, my middle son was in the Navy. He qualified with a 5" .45 Cal, the M16, several other weapons including 25mm MK 38 Machine Gun (on deck) the .50 cal. machine gun. (on deck) The point of this story.... When he came over on Thanksgiving and shot his brothers 3" 9mm he had a very hard time hitting the paper even though he scored 100% with the .45 cal when qualifying. He said it was totally different than a 5" .45 cal. Don't get me wrong, after about 40 rounds or so he was hitting much better but that's what happened. Several weeks prior to this he shot a 4" .40 cal and had no problems at all with it.
 
First of all, let me say that your friend has problems that go beyond recoil intolerance. He has one of the worst cases of "magic gun" syndrome that I've ever heard of. (The magic gun will take care of me just by virtue of my owning it.) You popped his bubble--I doubt he'll let that happen again.

But as far as recoil tolerance, there's a wide variety of folks out there. My wife won't shoot several of my 9mms because she says they hurt her. She owns a couple of her own that either fit her better or recoil a bit less than the ones that she says hurt.

Gun fit can make a huge difference too. Another woman I helped shoots a Ladysmith .38 that I absolutely hate. That thing is not at all comfortable for me to shoot, but she loves it. I let her shoot a Beretta 92 and she only shot one shot. The grip was wrong for her and it broke a blood vessel over her thumb knuckle. Swelled up very impressively so it wasn't like she was just complaining.

I tend to be pretty tolerant of folks who complain about a gun hurting them because I've seen some pretty strange situations.
 
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