"Can't handle 9mm..."

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Cousin Mike

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This thread is inspired by something I keep seeing recently. Maybe it was always there and I just never paid attention, but I'm really curious about this.

Are there really people out there (folks w/serious health problems, or of older age excluded) who can't handle 9mm?

I have a hard time with that one... but yet, it pops up... thread after thread, someone claims that their 9mm pistol is jumping out of their hand, or too much to handle in terms of recoil. Some of these folks are decent sized, fairly young people. Yet every once in a while, I'll catch some grandmother at the range with her husband, plowing away with a .357 Magnum and enjoying herself. This was also the case in my CCW class. The 70-something schoolteacher and myself (20-something) were the only one's who chose to do our shooting with airweight .357 snub guns. Everyone else treated them like cancer.

I recently took a friend of mine to the range. He owns a .45 that he never shoots - I was teaching him some basics. We rented an XD-9 because it has a slightly-less snappy recoil than my Beretta, and it's similar in some ways to his Glock. If you could have seen him shooting it, you would have thought I had handed him a Desert Eagle in .44 Mag or something. He couldn't hit the paper to save his life, and was so embarassed by his own shooting, I've never gotten him to go back to the range with me.

Here's the kicker. I had him shooting at 10-15 feet at full size silhouette targets. When I reminded him about sights, breathing, other fundamentals he would calm down for exactly one shot, and land a good hit... then immediately return to insane flinching, and as a result, disappointment and anger. He's a healthy, strong, 27 year old guy. Doesn't smoke, no drugs, runs 5 miles a day type guy. 9mm kicked his butt. Sort of an eye-opener.

What's the deal? I usually recommend they "toughen up," and try to be as nice about it as possible... but am I being a jerk? I know recoil is subjective. At the same time, the 9mm is not known for it's excessive kick.

I just figure that if you can't handle 9mm, then [feel free to end this sentence...]

What say you all?
 
i guess it all depends what you're shooting it out of. .357 out of a full-size all steel revolver certainly feels different than 9mm out of say a compact or semi-compact poly framed semi-auto. not to mention different sorts of recoil. .357 recoil is considerable, but it's coming from a gun that is typically heavy, so people usually expect the pop and jump. 9mm pistols are typically light and very ergonomic....newer shooters might be surprised to feel jump, as it is unexpected. 9mm is a fast round.
 
What's the deal? I usually recommend they "toughen up," and try to be as nice about it as possible... but am I being a jerk?
Click to expand...

if the person you're telling to is a guy, no you aren't being a jerk. you men should man up, grow them pairs.
 
Hey mike...

Do you know my friend Seth?
I had him shooting at 10-15 feet at full size silhouette targets. When I reminded him about sights, breathing, other fundamentals he would calm down for exactly one shot, and land a good hit... then immediately return to insane flinching, and as a result, disappointment and anger.
Click to expand...

Seriously, I took him to the range one time be cause he likes guns… never fired one, but likes them. So there we are, after the safety lecture I put my Beretta 92 in his hand and give him a mag with just one round in it. He loads the mag drops the slide and at 20 or so feet scores a perfect bulls eye. So, I load up a full mag and he blasts away, brings the target back, and there is only 1 hole in it… the first one. All of the other rounds completely missed a big A$$ target…
The next mag, after some lengthy instruction I noticed that a round or two was skipping off of the concrete floor! I packed my guns up and left.
 
Hey DogBonz: I don't think I know your friend, but that's sort of an amusing story, in a slightly scary way.

Car Knocker: Thanks for the honest criticism, but expand, please. If someone owns a .45, but they cant keep from flinching shooting a 9mm, what exactly should I say? BTW, my "toughen up," is usually more like:

"Well in my opinion, 9mm is as light as it gets in the common defensive calibers... You might just want to practice with this for a while, until you get used to shooting it."

Or something of that nature... I still think it's just a nice way of saying "If you want something big, then you have to get over it." Why is that the wrong approach? There's nothing wrong with .380 if that's someone's preference... but .380 isn't all that much lighter than 9mm, especially out of a pocket sized pistol.

gudel: I'd never use that approach with women or new shooters... This is only for the young, healthy guys that act like wimps when they shoot anything bigger than a .22lr - but still feel the need to buy a .40, or .45, yet cant hit the broad side of a barn with a 9mm. Healthy, young guys who say 9mm is too much gun for them...

Maybe I'm a jerkface - but I just honestly don't get it.
 
I hate to say it, but I blame TV and the movies. Pick whatever show/movie you want and they all make it look downright easy to fire a gun and take out BGs. I mean really, does Jack Bauer ever miss?

Given relatively identical guns, a 9mm should kick less than a 45. But, too many people go from big 45s to small 9s and are surprised when they kick. Of course, it's like going from a steel 357 K frame to an airlight 38. A Beretta 92 will feel much different than a Glock 26. People expect nothing but jeez, you're shooting a firearm. Not a paintball marker, not a BB gun, not an Airsoft pistol. A FIREARM. FIRE. BOOM BOOM. EXPLOSIONS. All that jazz.

My first time at the range alone, with my brand new 9mm, my muzzle was all over the place. Some of the nicer folks reminded me that I need to consciously control my weapon to avoid insane muzzle flip. Bad technique surely plays a role in poor accuracy too. In the movies, the fire off-hand while jumping out of the car while on fire and still manage to take out three BGs. Weaver stance? Isos stance? Then there's the issue of sights. Where does the front sight go in relation to the rear? How do those relate to the target.

Would you hand someone a baseball bat and put the in the "fast" cage at the batting range if they've never swung a bat before? Yes, they do need to butch up. It's not about being a tough guy, it's about learning a skill.

Just this n00b's .02
 
9mm Tooooo much...

Being an NRA instructor has been an eye-opener in many ways. The misconceptions, inaccuracies, and outright lies out there about the capabilities and performance of all types of firearms and ammunition is both laughable and scary.

I have indeed had students that could not physically handle the recoil of a 9mm (WWB in a G17). One such person had arthritis and had a hard time with the slide as well as the hard plastic grip (a revolver sporting a set of Pachmyrs worked out well though), another had an emotional response to the gun itself going off. Not that she was an anti, she just wanted to sit down and cry after the violence of the first shot (had to get her to step back off the line to catch her breath).

These are not typical, but they do exist. In some cases, toughening up is the answer (both physical and emotional), in other cases a hardware adjustment might be required.

As always, YMMV.

-LeadPumper
 
Cousin Mike said:
I just figure that if you can't handle 9mm, then ...
Click to expand...

... then you should practice with something that you can handle, until your muscles, nerves, and emotions have become inured to the sensations of firing a pistol.

And further: any time you start yanking the trigger and jerking your shots low, you should either move to a smaller caliber, or do lots of dry fire, or both, until your nerves are once again within your conscious control.

LeadPumper ~ it's unusual, but not that unusual, to encounter a newby who bursts into tears upon firing for the first time. It's usually a simple adrenalin response, nothing more, and tends to go away quicker if you let them know it's a normal response. Guys do it too, but don't usually cloud up quite so visibly as girls do (cultural training, I think) -- guys who have the same basic physiological response tend to flush, get shaky hands, and start dropping things.

pax
 
Good point, pax... No surprise there, of course, but here's my dilemma.

The only thing I have smaller than a 9mm or .38 Special is my Ruger Mk II, which is nothing like shooting a defensive gun, and the ranges I go to don't rent anything smaller than 9mm/.38 Special that I'm aware of, except for .22's.

The easiest thing I have to shoot (other than the Mark II) is a ported .357 Magnum that weighs about 45 oz. unloaded... .38 Specials are really soft in that, but due to the size and porting a lot of my not-so-gun-savvy friends find it intimidating, and won't even try to shoot it, .38 specials or no.

I don't want to buy a .380, .32, or .25 just for the rare occasion that I end up taking a recoil-shy person to the range. Do you think the .22 is enough?
 
the guy you were teaching...might not be a 'recoil flinch' problem...might be an infamiliarity with handguns...he could have been 'hypersensitive' and increased his psychosomatic reactions...please don't jump to such conclusions

I can tell you from experience that sometimes it seems like my guns kick my butt...if I'm tired, if I'm rushing through the shooting session, if I've had more caffeine than usual, and especially when I transition from outdoor (during warm and good weather) to indoor ranges (during cold and bad weather)where the audible report is increased :what:

also remember, he doesn't SHOOT his gun and may not be conditioned to expect the muzzle flash, audible report and the recoil associated with handgun shooting of any sort;

there is also the possibility that he grew up with people who disliked and abhord handguns and this may have rubbed off; this is what happened to me when I first started...I had NO NEED for them and DIDN'T want them until someone threatened me with a shotgun (the girl I was chatting with and becoming close to didn't mention that she was still involved with someone else)...from there it grew from needing to learn to use a 'tool' to finding fun and enjoyment with recreational shooting...
 
Do you think the .22 is enough?
Click to expand...

Of course it is. The goal is to have the shooter become familiar and comfortable with shooting. If someone shoots .22 first and becomes easy with it, they then understand what a bit of recoil is. If they watch others shoot larger calibers, they should be able to understand how the recoil is relatively more than what they are experiencing. They need a baseline and the .22 can do it for them.
 
OK, Cuz, I'll give it a shot. By the way, thanks for clarifying the "toughen up" comment. In its original form, it really isn't very constructive.

I think it's imperative to determine why the recoil isn't tolerable:

-Does the person have a physical problem that must be dealt with? Example: Arthritis, injury, carpal tunnel, etc. My wife fell and shattered her wrist a few years ago and holding a handgun for any length of time, let alone shooting it, is really painful for her

-What are the person's shooting experiences? Did some idiot start a newbie off with a .454 Casull (it happens) and there are residual effects that need to be resolved? Is there something in the person's background that has induced a fear of guns?

-Does the handgun fit the person or is he/she just barely hanging on to it and has no real control, finger barely reaches the trigger, etc. Does the person have a proper grip on the handgun?

-Training? Did the person start off with a low-recoil caliber or air pistol and work up from there? Was there any training at all? Does the person have a familiarity with handguns and is comfortable with them?

-Does the person really want to learn to shoot well, or even adequately? Or is he/she doing this because someone else wants them to, or because they feel they should learn for some reason (it's a "manly" thing to do)?

These are just example of questions that should be asked, and answered, before anyone can even hope to resolve the issue. You have to know the "why" before you can work on the "how".
 
I usually recommend they "toughen up," and try to be as nice about it as possible... but am I being a jerk?
Click to expand...

no, i've seen 100 lb girls that could handle a 9mm no problem
 
Don't discount the "noise" factor. Some people are just down right noise sensitive and that increases the flinch factor and increases perceived recoil.

Suppressed pistols make for a much friendler and hearing safe introduction to shooting.
 
There is a strange "snap" to the 9mm. I've never noticed it, but the wife assures me that it's there. She won't shoot a 9. She carries a 357 snubby that she'll shoot until the sun sets, she loves my 45 and got mad when I turned my 44 contender into a 444. To be fair, she won't shoot that one either.
 
I admit, the 9mm is snappy... I think it's snappy enough that I prefer 9mm probably the least of any caliber I've fired. I really don't care for it, but I'll always have at least one 9mm pistol of my own, and my g/f loves them. It's snappy, but it's still soft. I just don't prefer "snap," personally, unless I get a huge bang and flash out of it. That's why I like .357 Sig so much, even though it's about 2x as snappy as the hottest 9mm.

At least I'm getting a big fireball and 1500 fps out of the deal. :p

But to say someone young and fit can't handle it... Well, I guess I just call BS. The same way I'd call BS if a young healthy person said they couldn't rack the slide of a semi-auto. Errors in technique might make it difficult, but I guess it's the words ~can't handle~ that bug me.

Car Knocker, you make some good points. I'll come back and answer your post in a little more detail later... Right now, I've got some food that needs cookin'. :D Thanks again for the reply.
 
Zrex brings up a great point. Oftentimes it isn't the recoil, it is the noise. Have them use plugs and muffs. Some people are more sensitive to blast than others.

When teaching, I usually bring along a S&W 1917 with some really feeble (200 gr. semi-wadcutters at 800 fps) loads. Out of the 1917 they feel like nothing. If I have somebody who's getting all sorts of jittery, I'll have them shoot that single action for a bit.

Plus some students feel slighted when you try to step them down to a .22. It is easier to say, "here, I think this .45 will fit you better". Once they shoot it, and it is soft, and relatively quiet, then they feel more confident, because heck, it is a .45. :p

Also I've found that some students who talk about the snappyness of an auto, but then shoot a .357 fine, is not because of the recoil, but rather they have a psychological problem with the slide moving back and forth. I've found that some people are just plain intimidated by that big thing flying back and forth infront of their face.

Another problem is grip. The vast majority of the public doesn't know how to grip a handgun. 90% of gun owners don't know how to grip a handgun. Your friend may be grasping the gun too low, and thereby increasing the felt snappyness, or too loosly so the gun has room to shift.
 
I have seen ladies and youngsters do better with a .45 than 9mm because of the hard supersonic Crack! of the smallbore. Better ear protection helps. Subsonic 9mm helps a lot.

But the .22 is the best to start with, underutilized these days. People have gotten to where they are looking for the visceral thrill of the bang and kick and don't pay enough attention to learning how to hit the target.
 
So many variables.

I think the weight of the weapon may be one of the most important when introducing someone to a center fire hand gun. If I were starting somone off with a 9mm in a semi auto, I believe I'd start with a steel pistol. The Glock or XD's are outstanding weapons, but even in 9mm the felt recoil might be too much for some.

I have a bunch of grandsons coming up and I intend to start them with either my Single Six or my S&W Model 18. Both revolvers in .22 caliber. That might be the place to start some of these recoil sensitive folks, no matter what their age.
 
Another problem is grip. The vast majority of the public doesn't know how to grip a handgun. 90% of gun owners don't know how to grip a handgun. Your friend may be grasping the gun too low, and thereby increasing the felt snappyness, or too loosly so the gun has room to shift.
Click to expand...

100% spot-on.

I was teaching my girlfriend to shoot with a Springfield XD9. Lightweight polymer gun. She was hitting paper all the time, but was all over the place low.

I started really watching her hands closely, and her right pinky and ring finger would release their grip on the gun as her trigger finger tightened. There was also a bit of a limp wrist. The gun would "flop" downwards as a result, and the hit would be low and wobble from left to right due to the random grip pressure.

I had her hold it like she was shaking a hand, and her groups immediately tightened up. She said later on the gun was intimidating, but that after she noticed the grip issue it became much easier.

Now she's a regular Annie Oakley.
 
9mm isn't a wimpy round. There's a reason it's often cited as one of
the acceptable self-defense calibers, and that's because it's quite
powerful (for a handgun round).

My admittedly limited experience suggests that people tend to be either
snap- or shove-sensitive. Snap sensitivity seems to appear more often
in beginning shooters, but some people never warm up to snappy guns. My
theory is that nobody ever expects guns to be so loud and violent; blame
decades of watching blank-shooting actors on the silver screen or the
body's instinctive limbic response to holding an explosion at arms'
length, but it's almost always a lot more than the beginner behind the
trigger bargained for. When a beginner touches off a 9mm, there's a
loud, sharp bang and the gun whips back in their hands--and it all
happens before they can react to it, so the entire experience is
entirely beyond his or her control. As a result, it feels like it
happens to them, not because of them. A more experienced
shooter knows to just ride out the recoil and focus on reacquiring the
sights, but the beginner only knows that as soon as he pulled the
trigger one millimeter too far, he lost control of the gun in a most
startling fashion.

This, I think, is why .45 ACP and other slow but heavy bullets sometimes
seem friendlier to someone just starting out. There's a lot more shove
to the recoil, but it's spread out over a longer time, so the person
doing the shooting can start recovering from the recoil while it's still
happening. This does a lot to improve one's feeling of control, as does
the shooter's ability to hang on to the gun.

Finally, I think starting people out on polymer-framed guns is less than
ideal. I've yet to find a plastic pistol that is even as pleasant to
shoot as its steel equivalent.
 
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