Carry Gun Reliability - Observations
- Thread starter HankB
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Heraclitus
Member
- Joined
- Mar 8, 2004
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Prob'ly the same reason some drivers qualify with a used... er, pre-owned vehicle.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Training
Dienekes...brother, you just said a mouthful.
Although I vehemently support the RKBA, and feel that anyone
who isn't mentally afflicted, a habitual substance abuser, or predisposed to unrestrained fits of violence, should be able to own and carry a gun without jumping through hoops for the"right".
HOWEVER...having spent over 40 years around gun owners and shooters...
I'm of the mind that there are some people who simply shouldn't even
pick one up! I have a friend whom I love like a brother...and I don't shoot with him any more. He's nearly shot me twice, and has shot himself once.
John! Do NOT point it at ME...and keep yer %#&!! finger OFF the trigger fer crissakes!!! (His name is John, too.)
:banghead:
Good post Dienekes. Keep screamin' at'em...
Tuner
Dienekes...brother, you just said a mouthful.
Although I vehemently support the RKBA, and feel that anyone
who isn't mentally afflicted, a habitual substance abuser, or predisposed to unrestrained fits of violence, should be able to own and carry a gun without jumping through hoops for the"right".
HOWEVER...having spent over 40 years around gun owners and shooters...
I'm of the mind that there are some people who simply shouldn't even
pick one up! I have a friend whom I love like a brother...and I don't shoot with him any more. He's nearly shot me twice, and has shot himself once.
John! Do NOT point it at ME...and keep yer %#&!! finger OFF the trigger fer crissakes!!! (His name is John, too.)
:banghead:
Good post Dienekes. Keep screamin' at'em...
Tuner
This has not been my experience at all.
I consider myself a rimfire shooter above all else and have found good quality 22 rimfire to be very reliable.
You dont have to go very far up the cost ladder to get ammo that will function and be dud free.
I'm not saying I've never gotten a dud round, What I am saying is every dud I have encountered has been with the bargin bin ammo.
as far as jams go, I have a semiauto 22 pistol that has had in excess of 17 thousand rounds through it to date and has had exactly 2 jams(happened last month) which were the result of a worn magazine which was a result of- you guessed it- 17 thousand rounds.
Up until the jams happened, the gun had never even been field stripped.
I am always in awe when I see a shooter at the range with their brand new Kimber,Cooper, Sako, modded 10-22, ect ect, complaining that the gun wont group and has feed problems only to find out they're using ammo that runs 7 dollars a brick of 500.
On another rimfire forun I lurk on, one shooter just reported he has had 47 thousand rounds through his pistol without a malfunction.
What I have learned is:
Good quality guns+ good quality ammo = trouble free enjoyable rimfire shooting.
Penforhire
Member
Look, I own a Series 70 and I like it. But everything Tuner said about making 'em work well has to be compared to: "pull it out of the box, feed it whatever fits, keep it clean and properly lubed." That's how a LOT of other guns work.
Matter 'o fact I had zero teething problems with a P99, 686+, MkII, and 870. They all worked fine out of the box and after a bunch of rounds, with no <ahem> tuning. Am I just lucky? Don't think so. My Series 70 had some work done over the years but it was ALWAYS fussy about ammo. NONE of my other guns listed above are fussy.
Defend it all you want, with plenty of basis, but I won't carry or recommend a 1911 as my primary defense weapon.
Matter 'o fact I had zero teething problems with a P99, 686+, MkII, and 870. They all worked fine out of the box and after a bunch of rounds, with no <ahem> tuning. Am I just lucky? Don't think so. My Series 70 had some work done over the years but it was ALWAYS fussy about ammo. NONE of my other guns listed above are fussy.
Defend it all you want, with plenty of basis, but I won't carry or recommend a 1911 as my primary defense weapon.
wally
Member
Colt Series 70 is probably one of the worst guns to hold up as 1911 "typical".
Mine also needed work to be reliable. OTOH my Series 80 feeds anything that fits the mag, as does the two ~10 year old Norincos, and my new Kimber TLE II has done so too so far, but then its about 20 years younger and not so experienced
Unfortunately many recent guns have poor extractors out of the box. This extractor situation is not ideal, but adjusting an extractor to the proper tension takes some skill and can't be done by ISO 9000 paperwork and interchangable assembly monkeies following "proceedure" -- hence the trend to external extractors to "fix the problem".
--wally.
Mine also needed work to be reliable. OTOH my Series 80 feeds anything that fits the mag, as does the two ~10 year old Norincos, and my new Kimber TLE II has done so too so far, but then its about 20 years younger and not so experienced
Unfortunately many recent guns have poor extractors out of the box. This extractor situation is not ideal, but adjusting an extractor to the proper tension takes some skill and can't be done by ISO 9000 paperwork and interchangable assembly monkeies following "proceedure" -- hence the trend to external extractors to "fix the problem".
--wally.
Jacobus Rex
Member
As far as reliability goes, the most reliable pistols that I've dealt with have been the Ruger's. The downside of Ruger is that they are chunky and ugly.
I've never owned a Glock, so I can't say much about them. I have fired about a half dozen different Glocks owned by other people. Never had a jam with any of them. However, I have not fired more than a few boxes of ammo through Glocks.
While I consider 1911s to be reliable if unmodified, they are not as reliable as the much cheaper Rugers. If I had to bet money, I'd say that the average Ruger is much more reliable than the average 1911. I've found Browning's Highpower design to be more reliable than his 1911 design. (Hope I don't get flamed too much on that one.)
I've owner and/or shot most of the other big name pistols out there but have not put enough rounds through them to draw a firm conclusion.
I've never owned a Glock, so I can't say much about them. I have fired about a half dozen different Glocks owned by other people. Never had a jam with any of them. However, I have not fired more than a few boxes of ammo through Glocks.
While I consider 1911s to be reliable if unmodified, they are not as reliable as the much cheaper Rugers. If I had to bet money, I'd say that the average Ruger is much more reliable than the average 1911. I've found Browning's Highpower design to be more reliable than his 1911 design. (Hope I don't get flamed too much on that one.)
I've owner and/or shot most of the other big name pistols out there but have not put enough rounds through them to draw a firm conclusion.
This is incorrect. I shoot 22's competively, and my practice ammo is Aguila SV - which runs about a buck a box. Very inexpensive, Mexican made ammo. I've shot about 2 1/2 cases (12k rounds) of this stuff and never had a "jam" or a dud. I've used it in an old High Standard Victor, a Hammerli 208s and a Pardini SP - all had the same results. Some 22 semi-automatic handguns can be finicky about the ammo they like, it can be the result of excessive lubrication on the bullet, or the varying OAL of various 22 ammo and that many of them have the magazine play the role of a feed ramp. Once you find a combination that works it should work well.
Wayward
Member
When I took my CHL class two people had trouble with their weapons. One person was using one of the instuctors loaner Glock 19's. For some reason that was not determined, the gun simply would not fire.
The other person was using either a SIG 228 or 225. I think it was of older vintage because of the SIG cardboard box that he brought it in. The gun was a single shot. The funny thing, well not really funny, was that each time it malfunctioned he would hold the gun parallel in front of his body to investigate the stopage. Of course when he did this he would cover everyone on the line standing to the left of him. The instructor ended up having to stand behind him and clear the jams for him.
The other person was using either a SIG 228 or 225. I think it was of older vintage because of the SIG cardboard box that he brought it in. The gun was a single shot. The funny thing, well not really funny, was that each time it malfunctioned he would hold the gun parallel in front of his body to investigate the stopage. Of course when he did this he would cover everyone on the line standing to the left of him. The instructor ended up having to stand behind him and clear the jams for him.
when i took my first ccw class i used a 22. the test was done one on one in an underground shooting range. but when i re qualified the shooting was done at the local range. about 20 people with no problems except for an older man and his wife that had matching autos that the slide was sliceing up their hands. they were cheap little jobs that looked like .25's. i shot my p95 and had perfect score. i admit not hard from 7 yrds but o well.
as far as .22 goes i shoot the remington golden bullets from walmart 550 for like 8 bucks and dont have any problems except for a rare dud. but i don't carry a .22.
had
as far as .22 goes i shoot the remington golden bullets from walmart 550 for like 8 bucks and dont have any problems except for a rare dud. but i don't carry a .22.
had
spartacus2002
Member
I second the thoughts about 1911 reliability depending upon good mags.
My Springfield Armory Loaded .45 runs like a champ with factory mags, with a Kimber mag, and with a Colt mag that's older than I am. But with a fancypants Wilson mag, it FTFs every other round. Odd, but that's why I tested each mag in my pistol -- because it's my carry piece.
I also looked at a good deal on Hungarian .45 ammo, like 500 rds for $50, but I bought one box to test it, and good thing I did. It wouldn't feed that truncated ammo in any mag.
Best advice I can say for a carry gun is buy 2-300 rounds of your carry ammo and shoot it all to make sure it will feed reliably. Expensive, but so's your life.
My Springfield Armory Loaded .45 runs like a champ with factory mags, with a Kimber mag, and with a Colt mag that's older than I am. But with a fancypants Wilson mag, it FTFs every other round. Odd, but that's why I tested each mag in my pistol -- because it's my carry piece.
I also looked at a good deal on Hungarian .45 ammo, like 500 rds for $50, but I bought one box to test it, and good thing I did. It wouldn't feed that truncated ammo in any mag.
Best advice I can say for a carry gun is buy 2-300 rounds of your carry ammo and shoot it all to make sure it will feed reliably. Expensive, but so's your life.
Sistema1927
Member
Even though some of you live in states that require you to qualify with a semi-auto in order to carry both semis and revolvers, just be glad that you aren't saddled with the requirements we ended up with in New Mexico.
Here, you need to demonstrate proficiency with every caliber and action type. For example, say that you have both a .357 revolver and a .38 revolver, and you might want to carry either one. You would have to qualify with both, even though you could carry .38s in your .357, if you qualify with a .357 you can't carry a pistol stamped .38 on the barrel (Makes loads of sense, right?)
Additionally, if you have a 9mm and a .380 auto, you have to qualify with both. If you wanted to carry a .32 auto and a .32 revolver, you would need to qualify with both.
What is strange is the fact that you could qualify with either a 9x18, 9x19, or 9x23, and be able to carry all three, since the barrel would be marked 9mm. However, don't try to carry a .380 without qualifying with it unless the barrel is marked 9mm corto!
Your permit records all of the combinations you have qualified with, and you are not allowed to carry anything not included.
As a result, my permit (when it arrives, they have a backlog of over 700) will be stamped: 9mm auto, .38 revolver, and .32 auto. Even though I own both .357 and .38 revolvers, including a nice Speed Six with 2.75" barrel that would be great concealed, I decided that I would probably never carry anything in .38/.357 other than my 642. Same thing with the Glock 26 and Kel-Tec P32. It would be nice to add .45 auto and .357 revolver, but the course I took only allowed you to qualify with 3 weapons.
The silliest thing about this "qualification" is that even a blind person could probably pass it. You need to shoot 10 rounds at 7 yards and 15 rounds at 3 yeards into a target that is 12"x18". To pass you have to hit the target 18 times out of the 25, or 75%. As a result, if you put all 15 on the target at 3 yards, you only need to hit the paper 3 out of the 10 at 7 yards. All of this with no time limit. What a joke!
(Before anyone asks, I put all the rounds on the paper with all weapons, rapid fire with no more sight alignment than placing the front sight on the target. I figured that if they were going to make it so easy, I was going to try to get some benefit by somewhat simulating combat conditions.)
Here, you need to demonstrate proficiency with every caliber and action type. For example, say that you have both a .357 revolver and a .38 revolver, and you might want to carry either one. You would have to qualify with both, even though you could carry .38s in your .357, if you qualify with a .357 you can't carry a pistol stamped .38 on the barrel (Makes loads of sense, right?)
Additionally, if you have a 9mm and a .380 auto, you have to qualify with both. If you wanted to carry a .32 auto and a .32 revolver, you would need to qualify with both.
What is strange is the fact that you could qualify with either a 9x18, 9x19, or 9x23, and be able to carry all three, since the barrel would be marked 9mm. However, don't try to carry a .380 without qualifying with it unless the barrel is marked 9mm corto!
Your permit records all of the combinations you have qualified with, and you are not allowed to carry anything not included.
As a result, my permit (when it arrives, they have a backlog of over 700) will be stamped: 9mm auto, .38 revolver, and .32 auto. Even though I own both .357 and .38 revolvers, including a nice Speed Six with 2.75" barrel that would be great concealed, I decided that I would probably never carry anything in .38/.357 other than my 642. Same thing with the Glock 26 and Kel-Tec P32. It would be nice to add .45 auto and .357 revolver, but the course I took only allowed you to qualify with 3 weapons.
The silliest thing about this "qualification" is that even a blind person could probably pass it. You need to shoot 10 rounds at 7 yards and 15 rounds at 3 yeards into a target that is 12"x18". To pass you have to hit the target 18 times out of the 25, or 75%. As a result, if you put all 15 on the target at 3 yards, you only need to hit the paper 3 out of the 10 at 7 yards. All of this with no time limit. What a joke!
(Before anyone asks, I put all the rounds on the paper with all weapons, rapid fire with no more sight alignment than placing the front sight on the target. I figured that if they were going to make it so easy, I was going to try to get some benefit by somewhat simulating combat conditions.)
shep854
Member
Ooooh MAN! I love the South! Here in AL, even though each county can have input on carry restrictions, there is no qualification; you fill out the form and wait for the BG check. Once you get the permit, you can carry whatever you want!
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
re:
Penforhire said:
Defend it all you want, with plenty of basis, but I won't carry or recommend a 1911 as my primary defense weapon.
________________________
Howdy pemnforhire,
Not meant as a flame...and off-topic a bit, but I think that you're
missin' out on one of...if not THE most reliable pistols ever to come
down the pike, especially if you're basing that on experience with
one or two examples. I've got several that hit the ground runnin' and
have never had a stoppage or parts breakage in over a decade.
No tribute to my tuning abilities, either. They ran from day one,
and two of them are early Series 80 Colt 1991A1s that still have
the original small parts. A third identical pistol lost extractor tension
at approximately 20,000 rounds. Rather than fool with tuning it, I
replaced it with a tweaked Brown Hardcore.. No more problems after 5 years.
Luck!
Tuner
Penforhire said:
Defend it all you want, with plenty of basis, but I won't carry or recommend a 1911 as my primary defense weapon.
________________________
Howdy pemnforhire,
Not meant as a flame...and off-topic a bit, but I think that you're
missin' out on one of...if not THE most reliable pistols ever to come
down the pike, especially if you're basing that on experience with
one or two examples. I've got several that hit the ground runnin' and
have never had a stoppage or parts breakage in over a decade.
No tribute to my tuning abilities, either. They ran from day one,
and two of them are early Series 80 Colt 1991A1s that still have
the original small parts. A third identical pistol lost extractor tension
at approximately 20,000 rounds. Rather than fool with tuning it, I
replaced it with a tweaked Brown Hardcore.. No more problems after 5 years.
Luck!
Tuner
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