Carry with chamber empty or loaded?
- Thread starter mushinspace
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12131
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Agree, but I would say "know", instead of "assume". Ask me how I know.
mljdeckard
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To carry with an empty chamber is to make assumptions. Such as, assuming that your racking hand will be free when you REALLY need it. That you won't be steering your car, carrying a child, or BLEEDING PROFUSELY with your other hand. Saying; "I only chamber it when I really know I'm someplace dangerous" is saying that you know when you will and won't encounter danger. If you have any inkling that a situation is dangerous, you don't chamber a round, YOU SHOULDN'T GO THERE AT ALL IN THE FIRST PLACE.
Remember guys, this isn't about getting to shoot someone. It's about not getting shot.
I am currently in a situation where I am required to carry an empty pistol, and I'm here to tell you, when you are used to drawing and firing, using the four step draw, firing from retention, and practicing el presidente drills, it's a BIG crimp in the plan to have to add loading and racking to your draw. I also find with the weapon I am required to carry, I have a tendency to injure the web of my hand on the slide mounted safety, and many times I have inadvertently pushed the safety back on when practicing loading quickly.
Remember guys, this isn't about getting to shoot someone. It's about not getting shot.
I am currently in a situation where I am required to carry an empty pistol, and I'm here to tell you, when you are used to drawing and firing, using the four step draw, firing from retention, and practicing el presidente drills, it's a BIG crimp in the plan to have to add loading and racking to your draw. I also find with the weapon I am required to carry, I have a tendency to injure the web of my hand on the slide mounted safety, and many times I have inadvertently pushed the safety back on when practicing loading quickly.
FullEffect1911
Member
I carry with one in the pipe on my semi autos.
My suggestion to anyone who isn't comfortable with that is to either train at least until the point where you are or carry a fully loaded double action revolver. Really training never should stop but that is another topic.
For some reason DA revolvers don't really trigger that nervousness that a fully loaded semi auto does, possibly because they are extremely easy to load, unload and check to see if they are loaded coupled with a long and relatively heavy trigger pull.
I carry either a revolver or semi auto depending on the weather.
My suggestion to anyone who isn't comfortable with that is to either train at least until the point where you are or carry a fully loaded double action revolver. Really training never should stop but that is another topic.
For some reason DA revolvers don't really trigger that nervousness that a fully loaded semi auto does, possibly because they are extremely easy to load, unload and check to see if they are loaded coupled with a long and relatively heavy trigger pull.
I carry either a revolver or semi auto depending on the weather.
I carry a pistol with a loaded chamber and decocked in DA. I'm keep my finger out of the trigger guard and the DA pull is stiff enough I'm not worried about a freak accident.
Not a big fan of carrying SA autos, though. Something about having a hammer back, even with a safety on, makes me a little nervous.
Not a big fan of carrying SA autos, though. Something about having a hammer back, even with a safety on, makes me a little nervous.
ET
Member
If a BG is running at you from say 20 feet then you might have time to draw a gun from your holster and fire... MAYBE, it would be close. You won't have time to draw your gun AND rack the slide before the BG gets to you. The bad guys are not going to wait for you to rack the slide of your gun before they attack you. If they did wait for you, then they wouldn't be bad guys. Would they?
X-Rap
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What ever happened to the lawyer from Maine that carried SOB and claimed he would slyly put both hands behind his back and chamber a round if ever needed?
It was a discussion much like this from a few yrs back.
I heard a long time ago that for those unsure of their carry method to carry with empty chamber but cond1 for a time and see if their weapon ever fired on that empty chamber.
I have done it with 1911's and Glock's and never found that the hammer/striker was down. I did have the safety swept repeatedly off with a IWB Pistol Pocket that I had a Ultra Compact in so I quit using it.
I've got to much gut for appendix and an AD in that position would almost certainly be fatal so as I work off my gut I study that method.
It was a discussion much like this from a few yrs back.
I heard a long time ago that for those unsure of their carry method to carry with empty chamber but cond1 for a time and see if their weapon ever fired on that empty chamber.
I have done it with 1911's and Glock's and never found that the hammer/striker was down. I did have the safety swept repeatedly off with a IWB Pistol Pocket that I had a Ultra Compact in so I quit using it.
I've got to much gut for appendix and an AD in that position would almost certainly be fatal so as I work off my gut I study that method.
Yes, there is a reason to carry unchambered: unfounded paranoia.
On second thought, if I want to conceal carry and for whatever silly reason I don't have a holster with me I will carry unchambered because the trigger being covered is a must for me.
On second thought, if I want to conceal carry and for whatever silly reason I don't have a holster with me I will carry unchambered because the trigger being covered is a must for me.
Mainsail
Member
mljdeckard hit the nail on the head. It’s not so much a time issue, but more of an issue of knowing in advance that you will have both hands free. There are any number of reasons your off hand may be occupied, just use your imagination.
The other issue is drawing is much less ‘failure prone’ than drawing and racking the slide. In flying, landings and take-offs are considered ‘critical phases of flight’. It is the time when the most individual events are taking place, and the time a failure is the most difficult to handle. Flying at cruise is easy, a monkey could do it, it’s the CPF where pilot skill is most important. The same is true on a smaller scale with your handgun. Carrying in your holster is almost no risk, nothing is happening. If, in an emergency, you have to perform several complex motions to make your weapon ready, and the tiniest failure to perform one of those motions correctly will render the weapon useless, then you are setting yourself up to fail.
The other issue is drawing is much less ‘failure prone’ than drawing and racking the slide. In flying, landings and take-offs are considered ‘critical phases of flight’. It is the time when the most individual events are taking place, and the time a failure is the most difficult to handle. Flying at cruise is easy, a monkey could do it, it’s the CPF where pilot skill is most important. The same is true on a smaller scale with your handgun. Carrying in your holster is almost no risk, nothing is happening. If, in an emergency, you have to perform several complex motions to make your weapon ready, and the tiniest failure to perform one of those motions correctly will render the weapon useless, then you are setting yourself up to fail.
Prion
Member
I voted C2 for da/sa. If I carried a 1911 it would be C1.
Mountainman38
Member
While I understand and agree with the reasons for keeping a round chambered, I generally don't have a round in my Glock. I have three young children in my house, and while I have trained them to never mess with my guns, and that none of their friends is to ever touch one of them, I'm not willing to risk what would happen if they got hold of one of them and started messing with it.
I know loading a round is slow, and not always possible, but I have to weigh this against the danger I see from having a gun ready to fire.
The fact that in 30 years of using/carrying a gun I have never needed one to defend myself, despite being in very wild and lonely places as well as wild and not-so-lonely places tells me that the likelihood of needing to shoot quickly for me is low. (There have been many times when the gun on my side/in my hand brought me great peace of mind, though!)
While I certainly don't choose to go to dangerous places, when I'm out hiking with my kids in the woods, I generally chamber a round, then remove it when I get home.
Lots of people will disagree with this position, and that's ok. We all have to make our choices in how to be prepared for danger but not endanger ourselves, and this is my choice.
Ledgehammer
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I second this - if for some crazy reason I couldn't have the gun holstered at least in a glocktek with the trigger covered - I would then carry c3.
I have practiced drawing and racking - I've become really good at it actually, but it does add maybe a half second to the draw. If you practice you can make it one motion from appendix carry.
I think another thing to remember is if someone has the drop on you - meaning they already have a gun pointed at you - you're pretty much screwed... Just give them your wallet at that point. I can make more money. Just my opinion of course I'm sure others will argue that - somehow.
Mountainman38
Member
I keep my guns within reach and accessible. For me, that means not locked up.
There's no way that accessing a locked firearm in the event of a break in is as fast as grabbing my gun and chambering a round.
ET
Member
...I think another thing to remember is if someone has the drop on you - meaning they already have a gun pointed at you - you're pretty much screwed... Just give them your wallet at that point. I can make more money. Just my opinion of course I'm sure others will argue that - somehow.
OK, I'll be your Huckleberry. Giving a BG your wallet does not insure that the BG won't shoot you. I read a story in the local paper where a man & woman were held up on the street & shot even though they did exactly what the BG wanted them to do. Complying with the BG's demands does not insure that you will not get shot. Yes, your chances do improve when you comply. BUT if the BG is lying dead on the ground, then I feel really good about my chances of surviving the attack.
Ledgehammer
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Are you telling me that you can draw and hit accurately so fast that a BG with a gun pointed at your head wouldn't beat you to the trigger? Your absolute best chance of survival in the scenario where a BG has the gun pointed at your head - finger on the trigger is give up your wallet. Going for your weapon will most definitely escalate the situation to gunfire. It's just not realistic either. Situational awareness is your best defense against this situation -not a gun.
Now if they still decide to shoot you (which I agree does happen) I think the best option would be to then return fire hopefully stopping the attack or causing them to flee.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
Not my saying, but somebody posted this a few years ago relative to carry guns and self defense.
Shadow 7D
Member
To quote many who have said this before me
The loudest (and maybe last) sound in a gun fight is 'CLICK' of an empty chamber.
NO REASON NOT TO CARRY WITH A ROUND IN A CHAMBER, if you are concerned enough to carry a gun, then you should be concerned enough to use it if needed.
The loudest (and maybe last) sound in a gun fight is 'CLICK' of an empty chamber.
NO REASON NOT TO CARRY WITH A ROUND IN A CHAMBER, if you are concerned enough to carry a gun, then you should be concerned enough to use it if needed.
LiveLife
Member
To all those who believe they can "sufficiently/timely" rack the slide "if/when" an immediate threat to life situation occurs:
When I was a teenager growing up in Los Angeles, I took up martial arts training as a hobby for self defense. The instructor taught the "traditional" form first during each session and always followed with "practical/street" form by telling us, "When you are in a real fight, use the street form. Use the traditional form for formal matches and belt grading."
He told us he taught us "street" form because when he was younger, cocky and stupid, he often got into fights. Although he was proficient with the TKD techniques, when knives were pulled out he had to be more efficient with his form to buy him time so that he didn't get stabbed or sliced. We had many hands-on sessions where we learned to disarm attackers with sticks, knives and pistols.
After demonstrating several pistol disarm techniques where he closed the distance of 10-15 feet in a blink of an eye to knock the pistol out of hand, taking away the pistol or pointing the pistol back at the attacker, he pointed out that most semi-auto pistols will not fire if you grab the slide from the side and push back on the slide so the barrel is out of battery (he used a single hand twist motion with palm on frame and fingers on top of slide). When some of us "gun fans" asked what's the best defense against someone like him, he said to use a blocking arm out front, use a quick draw and shoot from the hip/chest BEFORE he gets to you because we'll have very little time to react before he is on top of us.
When I took my defensive training classes, we were trained that we often had less than a second to react/respond to an immediate threat. We practiced drawing and firing in one smooth motion from holster to center of chest with our weak hand out front as a shield/block from the attacker who might be close (Elbow pressed firm against the abdomen provides support for the shooting hand).
Many of us have never been in a "real fight" or been punched/kicked for real. When someone is planning an attack and executes the initial hit, they do it to make it count. Often, the target will have very little or no time to react. It all happens very quickly in a flash. If you are hit in any way, your ability to perform "typical" gun handling will be severely impaired. Only thing that will help is repetitious training so your response would be automatic and instinctive.
Here's a test. How many of you practice so you can reach, draw, rack the slide, aim and hit your target at 5-7 yards with your eyes closed? I regularly teach people to perform this task in under a second, BUT the pistol must be chambered.
I live in a city where crimes against individuals on the street and violent home invasion attacks occur on a daily basis. Believe me, I KNOW I am prey, not a predator. I think like a prey and take every advantage I can turn to my favor. If I can save a precious fraction of a second so I don't have to rack the slide, I will.
When I was a teenager growing up in Los Angeles, I took up martial arts training as a hobby for self defense. The instructor taught the "traditional" form first during each session and always followed with "practical/street" form by telling us, "When you are in a real fight, use the street form. Use the traditional form for formal matches and belt grading."
He told us he taught us "street" form because when he was younger, cocky and stupid, he often got into fights. Although he was proficient with the TKD techniques, when knives were pulled out he had to be more efficient with his form to buy him time so that he didn't get stabbed or sliced. We had many hands-on sessions where we learned to disarm attackers with sticks, knives and pistols.
After demonstrating several pistol disarm techniques where he closed the distance of 10-15 feet in a blink of an eye to knock the pistol out of hand, taking away the pistol or pointing the pistol back at the attacker, he pointed out that most semi-auto pistols will not fire if you grab the slide from the side and push back on the slide so the barrel is out of battery (he used a single hand twist motion with palm on frame and fingers on top of slide). When some of us "gun fans" asked what's the best defense against someone like him, he said to use a blocking arm out front, use a quick draw and shoot from the hip/chest BEFORE he gets to you because we'll have very little time to react before he is on top of us.
When I took my defensive training classes, we were trained that we often had less than a second to react/respond to an immediate threat. We practiced drawing and firing in one smooth motion from holster to center of chest with our weak hand out front as a shield/block from the attacker who might be close (Elbow pressed firm against the abdomen provides support for the shooting hand).
Many of us have never been in a "real fight" or been punched/kicked for real. When someone is planning an attack and executes the initial hit, they do it to make it count. Often, the target will have very little or no time to react. It all happens very quickly in a flash. If you are hit in any way, your ability to perform "typical" gun handling will be severely impaired. Only thing that will help is repetitious training so your response would be automatic and instinctive.
Here's a test. How many of you practice so you can reach, draw, rack the slide, aim and hit your target at 5-7 yards with your eyes closed? I regularly teach people to perform this task in under a second, BUT the pistol must be chambered.
I live in a city where crimes against individuals on the street and violent home invasion attacks occur on a daily basis. Believe me, I KNOW I am prey, not a predator. I think like a prey and take every advantage I can turn to my favor. If I can save a precious fraction of a second so I don't have to rack the slide, I will.
mljdeckard
Member
^^This math is pretty simple. And yes, everyone should learn retention techniques, as well as FIRING FROM retention.
LiveLife
Member
It will be better to throw/toss the wallet far enough to the side so the BG will have to take his eyes off of you to follow the wallet. You draw so when he faces back to you to say "*** did you do that for?", he'll be facing YOUR gun. This is "one of those times" when you need to present your LOADED pistol FAST on your target.
Now, he's got two options:
1. Fight - But you have him on your sights with your finger on the trigger. Any threatening motion on his part (pointing his gun towards you), will prompt you to start pressing the trigger.
2. Run - The situation is now de-escalating. Call 911 and give a report/description of the robber as you scan your surroundings for additional actual/potential threats, move into more defensible position or locate your car and leave the area.
Sadly, this is the case even though victims comply with robber's demands. I take the position that I will probably be shot regardless whether I cooperate or not as many robberies in my city resulted in victims often shot to death even though they fully cooperated as shown in videos. I will take my chances based on my training to hit my target over whether the BG is feeling good enough that day to spare my life.
bikerdoc
Moderator In Memoriam
Loaded chamber, safety off, 1/2 cocked, follow the four rules.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
Or he may just let the wallet sale out of sight and instead of getting ready to query as to why you did it, he may just go ahead and shoot you for not complying correctly.
I never seem to meet all those trained and claimed regular people with the sub 1 second draws from concealment who shoot so accurately. Of course, I never meet the guys who shoot sub MOA groups at 200 or even 100 yards with iron sights on rifles. Strangely, I have been with a lot of people who had guns never malfunction that malfunctioned for the first time ever when I was present.
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