CCW affecting normal self-defense?

[RS3RS]

Let's say you're carrying, CCW, and as much as you try to avoid it and defuse the situation, someone who is really ticked off over something, or drunk, or who knows what insists on starting a fight with you - and there's no where to run.

Now, for sake of arguement, let's say you don't live in a deadly-force friendly state (read: Flordia, or the like), and you don't feel this guy is trying to kill you, just wants to start something, so you're not justified in drawing. If you draw, he may advance on you anyway, and you'd be in a world of legal trouble if you shot him.

Also, for arguments sake, let's also assume you're very confident that you could "take" this guy if it came down to it. However, you don't want him to end up wrestling your CCW away from you and using it on you.

How would you carrying affect how you would react in a normal justified hand-to-hand situation?


I try to carry a bottle of fox labs spray with me whenever I can, but it seems most people around here don't, so just curious as to what you'd do.

 

[DKSuddeth]

would there be any difference if it was a waifish woman he was after?

I had a friend who was 6'3", 330 lbs, but couldn't fight his way out of a wet paper bag.

If you fear for your life, or are in fear of serious bodily injury, you shoot.

 

[Shweboner]

Have CCW & Deadly Force laws affected normal self-defense?


Look at this.

In Oregon, if I am in a fight or some other situation where I may fear for my life, legally I can kill the attacker. No jail time, all justifiable

On the other hand, lets say that I can stop this person with my fists...
I go to jail, get charged with Assault 4 at the least... with this charge I have a scarred record, not to mention I cannot own a gun for 4 years after.


Why can I kill a man who is threatenting my life, but in a lesser situation I cannot fight my way out?

:banghead:

 

[beerslurpy]

Because the law (and society) is in a state of flux. Concealed carry is only begining to have an effect on the consciousness of the masses. You cant expect a move towards common sense right away.

 

[tellner]

It makes me a lot less likely to get into fights, more apt to let things slide, less willing to salute rude drivers with the Universal Symbol of Fertility. If any encounter could become deadly force it raises the stakes on all of them.

That said, if the situation is less than lethal I'll use my hands if the alternative is to be beat up. When it comes time to stand in front of the jury I'll make sure my attorney points out that I was showing restraint.

 

[crofrog]

in the event of having to go hand's on while carring a gun, you'd need to be very aware of the fact that the gun was there, and defaintly be aware of the risk of him going for your peice why you are fighting. So you need to know how to retain it. This is also where if you have some cheap fobus holster, or weak belt you are going to find out about it.

 

[DKSuddeth]

When it comes time to stand in front of the jury I'll make sure my attorney points out that I was showing restraint.

I shot pistol expert as a marine for 6 years. If he's alive, I showed restraint.

 

[rhubarb]

First of all, CCW is normal self-defense.

insists on starting a fight with you - and there's no where to run.

You better find a place to run. If you're in a scenario like the one described, what's keeping you there? The guy's pissed but he hasn't attacked you yet. You believe that a physical attack is imminent. You don't think that deadly force is justified. If you have time to become cognizant of these facts, you have time to escape and call 911.

I would go so far as to say that since I am carrying, I have a responsibility to avoid a knock-down drag-out at all costs (even if I suffer mortal injuries to my pride) for the reason you stated: If he learns that I am carrying and tries to take away my gun, it is now a life-or-death struggle that I may well lose.

This is why your CCW should be a part of your normal self-defense. You should also be able to defend yourself with your hands as part of your normal self-defense, if only to be able to physically distance yourself from an attacker. That's your intent, right? Just to get away? You're not there to whup his butt as he rightly deserves, right? You're not asking, "How do I physically put some obnoxious moron in his place without shooting him?" are you?

 

[torpid]

rhubarb, judging from your reply, I think you took the initial post the wrong way.

I believe that RS3RS means something more like:
Despite your best efforts to defuse/retreat, an aggressive drunk is blocking you in from the only exit and moving in on you to punch and grapple with you close quarters. Your goal is physically distancing from him, but that option is being denied/countered by his immediate actions.

.

 

[RS3RS]

Exactly.

Let's say, for example, you're walking out to a parking lot. Some guy happens to get the idea that you looked at his girlfriend the wrong way or something. He comes up to you to confront you. He doesn't know what car is yours, but he happens to be blocking you from entering your vehicle. He says something like how he's going to slap you around a little bit, or something along those lines to teach you not to look at a guys girl. You throw your hands up, try to defuse it, with no success.

[In most states] you can't exactly just draw your .45 and blast his brains out for that.

 

[benEzra]

I'd spray him with OC (+1 on Fox Labs).

 

[crofrog]

Let's say, for example, you're walking out to a parking lot. Some guy happens to get the idea that you looked at his girlfriend the wrong way or something. He comes up to you to confront you. He doesn't know what car is yours, but he happens to be blocking you from entering your vehicle. He says something like how he's going to slap you around a little bit, or something along those lines to teach you not to look at a guys girl. You throw your hands up, try to defuse it, with no success.

That's a fairly bad example, because of the ease of gaining distance, or simply retreating.

How about something more like this, you are in a restraunt enjoying lunch. The bathroom's are down a narrow hall. The only way out is the way you came nothing but walls and bathroom's behind you. You bump into someone on the way out, he takes this as a personal insult and is obviously looking for a fight. He gets between the only way out, and you. Shouting insults and using fighting words. He's pressing the attack you will have your back to the wall in just a few more seconds. The attacker is older than yourself, and is in the same phyiscal shape so there is no disparity of force. There are no weapons visible.

What do you do?

Chris

 

[SSN Vet]

good question....

undoubtedly, the answer is yes....even "unarmed" or "normal" self defense is changed by the presence of your concealed weapon.

if you plug an unarmed BG....you're going to be very hard pressed to justify it.

if BG detects your carry piece....it could escalate the hostilities and make it a fight for the gun.

if you brandish the gun and don't shoot...BG may go and get his own, or his six friends ("that #$%## just pulled a gun on me").

No easy answers....but there are some points that can be logically concluded...

your concealed firearm needs to be secure!

your concealed firearm best serves you when it is well concealed.

the ability to hold your own in a fist fight is handy (though unrealistic for many)

pepper spray has a viable place for encounters with unarmed, yet potentially very harmful BGs.

staying away from iffy places/situations is prudent (though not always possible).

+1 to Rhubarb's advice to "swallow ones pride" and to "avoid knock down drag out" at all cost. Another example of how CCW makes for a more civilized society.

proper prior planning can't cover every contingency (though it sure helps and is the reason why I frequent this forum)....the ability to think on you feet (and move them quickly if needed) along with good providences are always desireable.

God bless us every one

 

[Cuda]

I think you said it all.

and you don't feel this guy is trying to kill you

Walk/run away

C

 

[TeachMe]

Pepper Spray

I have no desire to trade blows with anyone if it can be avoided. If I can defuse the situation, great, if he persists to threaten, he gets pepper spray. If he can fight after that, and I cannot retreat, I will inflict as much physical damage in as short an amount of time with the least risk to myself in order to stop the threat. The movie idea of you punch then I punch is just a good way to get yourself hurt.

 

[RyanM]

"Not trying to kill you" is not a prediction you can make pre-fight. A plain old fist-fight can turn into a literal stomping in a fraction of a second.

Mace might work, or it might enrage the guy further. Same with brandishing. A baton might work, if you've got sufficient training. Though in very close quarters (like the bathroom example), you'd want to use something more like halfsword/fixed bayonet techniques. I don't know if any baton course teaches those.

 

[tellner]

pepper spray has a viable place for encounters with unarmed, yet potentially very harmful BGs.

Not against motivated people who want to hurt you. The research has been done. The real world data are there. It's not something you want to rely on if you could be seriously hurt.

 

[BullfrogKen]

Ryan,

That's a pretty neat graphic. Where may I ask did it originate?

However, you don't want him to end up wrestling your CCW away from you and using it on you.

Most quality handgun courses include a cursory introduction in handgun retention in the syllabus. Insights Training has an entire course dedicated to handgun retention. I enjoyed it; it was in fact the first formal handgun instruction course I took. Unarmed self defense classes may cover the material, too.

Consider taking some training in this area if you have no plan to deal with this contingency. Quality force on force training should give you some ideas on option to address this eventuality, as well.

 

[crofrog]

A baton might work, if you've got sufficient training. Though in very close quarters (like the bathroom example), you'd want to use something more like halfsword/fixed bayonet techniques. I don't know if any baton course teaches those.

Short stick / SAP style techniques work well with the baton closed. Not to mention just using it as a fistload.

But seriously rain down a few caveman's or hammer fist with the end of the baton against there melon and see how they want to go from there.

Chris

 

[Cut Throat Job]

But seriously rain down a few caveman's or hammer fist with the end of the baton against there melon and see how they want to go from there.

Chris

lmao to that comment

and yes closed batons are perfect k-bars

 

[RyanM]

That's a pretty neat graphic. Where may I ask did it originate?

It's from Get Tough! How to Win in Hand-to-Hand Fighting, by William Ewart Fairbairn. Published in 1943.

Short stick / SAP style techniques work well with the baton closed. Not to mention just using it as a fistload.

But seriously rain down a few caveman's or hammer fist with the end of the baton against there melon and see how they want to go from there.

I could see how some kubotan techniques might work, but some swings might open the thing.

 

[hurrakane212]

+1 OC spray

Yeah, use OC spray, but that is just one "tool" in your "toolbox" just like your gun. OC him then use the "Nike Defense" and run to safety. If you are cornered, run past him and clip him on your way past (like a linebacker clipping a guard on the way to a sack). Or just get past him. If he is drunk etc. and you know you can handle this without a gun, then do so! This is a human life, we must seek to preserve it at almost any cost. However, if other options are not feesable then the cost is too high and you should use a marrocan (sp) doubletap.
Note that it takes time to draw a CCW and that your body is not in the best defensive stance while drawing. Often times you may need to use other defenses before you can get to your gun.
Situational avoidance and awareness are your friends.~Nathan

PS A lot of good info can be found at
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/

 

[crofrog]

I could see how some kubotan techniques might work, but some swings might open the thing.

Keep your thumb over the side that opens it, while you hit them with the other end. That's why I carry my baton tip up.



Chris

 

[MedGrl]

Pepper spray is your friend...i think almost all gunshops carry it. In a self defense situation I see it more as a spectrum much like this


Do nothing....talk...........peper spray.................draw your gun............shoot

 

[geekWithA.45]

This is the sort of situation tailor made for Aikido.

No strikes need be thrown. A sidestep, a nudge, and perhaps a hand technique, and the belligerent is on the ground behind you, as you hightail it out the door.

Another way of looking at it is that your objective is to disengage and leave before lethal force becomes necessary.

Trading blows is not the best way to achieve that goal.