CCW holder alledged to have made a fatal tactical error

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Unless it was an intentional "suicide by cop" it seems clear that someone made an error. I don't see any evidence to suggest that this was intentional.
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well here is the latest
http://www.lvrj.com/news/man-did-no...tco--lawyer-says-98279344.html?numComments=72

the interesting points for me were his statement:

1. "Well, I can do that in Texas"...i would think referring to CCW in the store as opposed to opening merchandise. which would lead me to believe that that they detected his CCW before this point and asked him to leave.

and new observations from witnesses who:

2. saw him draw his weapon when confronted by LEO at the front entrance. previously the closest thing to this was that he had raised his shirt to show the officers his gun.

But when the witness walked by Scott, he heard him say to the employee, "Well, I can do that in Texas."

"After we walked down the aisle, my wife said, 'That's a funny thing for him to say,' and I agreed," the witness said.

In retrospect, the 72-year-old man said he believed Scott's comment about Texas was a reference to being allowed to carry a concealed handgun.

When the couple rounded the corner of the aisle, they saw a second Costco employee who appeared to be talking on a Bluetooth headset while observing Scott and the other employee.

Roughly five minutes later, the man said, he heard an announcement on the store's intercom asking everyone to leave the building.

Scott was shot while following the crowd out of the store.

Several witnesses interviewed by the Review-Journal have said they did not see a gun and did not see Scott reach for a gun when police confronted him outside the store.

But the 72-year-old man, in addition to another witness reached Monday, said they did see the weapon and did see Scott reach for it.

Police have said that Scott drew a pistol and pointed it at officers after they ordered him to raise his hands and lie on the ground. Both witnesses gave their accounts to homicide investigators, they said.

The 72-year-old man heard police say, "Get on the ground. Get on the ground." He saw Scott facing the officers, who were between Scott and the store entrance.

The man said he saw Scott reach with his right hand and pull out what appeared to be a gun in a zippered holster. He recognized the holster, he said, because he has one like it. Officers then fired, and the man saw the gun fall out of Scott's hand. The witness did not see Scott point the gun at officers.

"I feel sorry for the guy, but he just made a dumb move," the 72-year-old man said.

The second witness, who also spoke on the condition that his name not be used, was standing near the entrance when he said he heard police shout, "Get down on the ground. Get down now."

He turned to see why police were yelling, he said, and saw Scott reaching for what appeared to be a pistol in his waistband. The witness said he recognized the butt of the gun and immediately turned toward his wife and covered her as they dove to the ground.

"He was definitely reaching for the gun," the man said.

The witness turned away before he could see whether Scott fully removed the weapon from his waistband and didn't see the shooting. He said it did not appear that Scott was trying to "quick-draw" the weapon on the officers.

He heard gunshots soon after. The witness said he has been struggling with how the incident unfolded.

"It's so totally bizarre to me" that the man would grab the weapon in front of the officers, the witness said.

He added that he doesn't believe the man deserved to die for his actions, as he has heard other people say. But he said he does believe the officers were justified in their response.
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posted by tbone1964
Iff you go to KSCCW forums the complete story is there. The gentleman in question was actually standing the customer service line tryig to make a return when an employee notice the guy was packing.. security was called, and they asked the guy toleave,, when he refused, informing the security officers that he has CCW, security called police,
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can you provide a link?

i went to the site and it wouldn't let me search without joining
 
Local news has the following posts among the comments:

http://www.8newsnow.com/global/story.asp?s=12785291

My wife and I were 7 or 8 feet away from the shooting as were the police. We were to the suspects immediate right. We heard and saw the 3 police officers shouting to the man in question to ‘get on your knees’ several times. At that point the man appeared somewhat stunned by the commotion and shouting of the police.

His Right arm went up in a defenseless position and it appeared his left arm appeared to be going up but there was NO gun in his hand. He was taserd and shot at the same time. At no time did the man in question ever raise his voice, shout an obscenity or become confrontational with the police. We saw the disabled man stooping to his right facing us with what appeared to be a bullet wound in his upper chest with blood coming from the wound and immediately his eyes became glossy as he began to convulse. At this point he was no threat to anyone, both hands were in full view of us and there was no gun. As he was down, the police continued to shout ‘put the gun down’ several times…but there was no gun in his hand as we had full vantage point view. The injured man was having agonal respirations, he was down when the second volly of bullets rang out. There was no doubt in question that following the second barrage of bullets the man was dead. His girlfriend was to the back side of us and began to scream…..why did you kill him, he is a military man with a license to carry a concealed weapon. You didn’t need to kill him….you didn’t need to kill him.
An officer then came up to the injured man who in my opinion was a ‘dead’ man’, was cuffed with his hands behind his back and no attempt by the officer to determine if the man was alive or dead. No apparent life saving aid was given to the ‘downed’ man. The man was totally lifeless when the Paramedics arrived on scene. I was absolutely surprised to see that no attempt at aggressive ACLS was engaged. They simply just picked up the body like a ’sack of potatoes’ and hurled him onto the gurney and into the ambulance This was a crime scene…. the crime scene was violated. One of the paramedics who attended to an injured elderly lady said the man was dead. There was a dead man in front of Costco. What nobody is talking about is that there were many many spectators, many like ourselves within just a few feet of the victim when the shots rang out. It seems to me that the greater danger was posed not by the victim but by the police who fired many shots in the vicinity of the innocent public. I agree with you, I hope the media and your friends family can get their hands of Costco’s Camera’s which will indeed tell the rest of the story. Also it must be confirmed whether the second gun supposedly found by the victims side was indeed also registered to him as a licensed conceal and carry.
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I just found on that this WAS my cousin who was shot! He was a West Point Graduate, never been in trouble, was an officer in the Army, and had a concealed weapons permit in Nevada. The story I’ve heard from friends of his girlfriend have told us that a store clerk saw that he had a concealed gun, told him he couldn’t have it in the store. He replied, “sure I can I have a concealed weapons permit”. The clerk apparently overreacted and called the police that he was some kind of crazy person which ended up in over hyped police that shot him while he was trying to comply by taking his gun out of his shirt to place on the ground as they asked as he was leaving the store. Please anyone who was at the scene and witnessed any of this tragedy please contact me at [email protected] we may need your help.
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I was a few feet away from the man when the shooting occurred. I actually ran into him and what seem to be his wife in the store a few times. They seemed to be happy couple who where purchasing some really healthy food. I only remember this because the couple where pretty attractive and my girl made the comment to me. They looked just like an ordinary Vegas couple.

As we were paying for our items,we were asked to evacuate Costco. As we were evacuating I overheard a few Costco employee's joking about fire drill and what not, I overheard one comment that seemed to make more sense......We have a suspect and he's inside.......

As I stepped outside I noticed a police office on the outskirt of the door with his gun drawn. People were all gathered outside the area confused about what was going on. We figure it not a not a normal situation, as I was looking for my girl and man told me it wasn't to safe where I was standing. I was just about to turn around and move behind some pillars. when I heard the shooting... the officer put what seemed to be more than half a magazine into the man chest "center mass" not 4 feet away from the suspect.

The suspect seemed to be reaching for something when the officer fire all those rounds into him. The officer did warn him to keep his hands up, be he did not heed his warning as a consequence he was fired upon.

He collapsed to the ground gurgling for air and the police officer put his knee on his back and cuffed him. No one touched him for some time, I believed I heard his last breathe. His wife screaming in the background he's in the Army he in the Army and you killed him.

At this point 5 to 6 officer has their gun drawn on him. I really don't see why... that many rounds in the chest no one would be able to move. The officers all screamed get away and leave.

I walked to my car a this point and I was watching the suspect at the time form 50ft away the emergency workers didn't even seem to try to save him. I guess with that mortal wound to the chest no one could survive.
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BTW, I couldn't find the link to the thread on the KSCCW forums either, even via a search.
 
His wife screaming in the background he's in the Army he in the Army and you killed him.
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Now he is in the Army? While interesting, I am not sure that has anything to do with his behavior. Nor does anything about where he went to school, etc.
 
There's an awful lot of conflicting information and purported eye witness accounts. Hopefully the store has some security camera footage that will set the record straight.
 
I hope I am never being screamed at by Police to 'Drop it!' when there is no 'it' to 'drop'.


If I ever encounter such screaming, I will raise my Hands with open palms forward I s'pose.

If the Cops were demanding he 'drop' a Pistol he had in his Waisteband, and he then reached for it...not so good...

I will say in my own limited experience, that sometimes Police neglect basic common sense and basic people skills, and assume instead a hysterical 'dominance' mode which at once confuses and overwhelms, then they interpret the confusion and shock and overwhelm of the person to suggest insubordination or retisence, and Police then over-react to that as if that were a threat to their life somehow...when what happened, is that the police caused and exploited the 'problem' in their manner of approach...then blaming the victim or the then deceased whom they kill.


This seems to me to be fundamentally insane.

'Command Presence' I think it is called.

"Insanity" and fatally self fulfulling psychopathology, is what I would call it.

I say this with respect to whatever the facts of this case may be, since I have seen it occur and or had it occur to me a few times.

Police can put a person into an instant and impossible set of sudden emotionally violent demands, then over-react to how the person is momentarily confused about the conflicting demands...then the Police become instantly enraged and violent. This when no arm and no threat of any sort were present.


I believe their job ought to require a little more finesse, people skills, quality of observation, and actual bravery to countinance unknown situations constructively, without escalating them as tactic to then justify killing someone for petty insubordinations.


This is what scares me personally about any interface with Police interfering with me over anything.


Many of them are 'nuts' and have a mind set which is vastly more 'dangerous' to an honest man or woman, than an armed criminal would have been.


How then to manage one's demeanor if confronted and CCWing? Or even if not CCWing?


Is the ongoing question...and the question has it's context of how things can go wrong, with no fault of the person being confronted.

Merely turning around to see who is yelling garbled hysteria, and "BamBamBam!" they can shoot you, and claim they felt 'threatened' because your hands and arms were entirely visible, and all you did was start to turn around to look at them...

"Horror"
 
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Merely turning around to see who is yelling garbled hysteria, and "BamBamBam!" they can shoot you, and claim they felt 'threatened' because your hands and arms were entirely visible, and all you did was start to turn around to look at them...
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Exactly that happened recently with a motorcyclist and the Ottawa Hills, Ohio PD. The entire incident was captured on dashcam. Cop stopped a guy for speeding. Guy pulls over. Cop keeps siren on, making it impossible to understand what he's saying. Motorcyclist makes no suspicious moves. He turns to see what the cop is doing and the cops shoots him, rendering him a paraplegic. Cop is tried for the shooting, attempted murder, I think. The cop's defense was literally insane, asserting that it was "unreasonable" for him to follow procedure, which clearly he did not follow. His "expert witness" testifies that what he did was perfectly reasonable. Other LEO witnesses testify that it was wildly unreasonable. The cop was convicted and will do hard time.

The COSTCO case probably hinges 50-50 on the security video and the witness statements.
 
A. What was the guy doing "destroying" merchandise???? I imagine that is illegal in Nevada.

B. How did Costco evacuate everyone besides Erik Scott?

C. When armed police officers tell you to get on the ground, you do it!!!!!!!!!

D. When armed police officers tell you to get on the ground, you do not pull a gun out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

E. Officers do not know you are a legal CCW just because you say so.

F. Erik Scott broke the first rule of CCW, letting people know you have a firearm.

G. When asked to leave Costco by the staff, you MUST comply.

Apparently the guy was not too sound of mind to be destroying merchandise.
 
isn't that ohio cop still out on appeal bond?
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Don't know. Given the totality of the evidence against him and his horribly ill-conceived defense, I don't give him much chance of walking away from what he did. Were his conviction to be reversed, police in Ohio would have a literal license to kill. I don't see it happening.
 
yea i saw the vid it was bad. but appeals are a funny thing takes a jury outa the picture and puts it in one judges hands.
 
Apparently the guy was not too sound of mind to be destroying merchandise.
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Apparently someone has not been reading the thread carefully.

Your observations are not concrete.

All conjecture and rumor at this point.

Too early to pass judgement or to throw stones.
 
yea i saw the vid it was bad. but appeals are a funny thing takes a jury outa the picture and puts it in one judges hands.
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However uncorrupted judges REALLY hate having their intelligence insulted. Officer Tony Abbate had a bench trial. His defense was such an affront to reason and human decency that he's a convicted felon now even without a jury to sympathize with the defendent. The Ottawa Hills cop's defense was FAR worse. He's toast.
 
thats the wild card element of appeal if he can get a new trial for something procedural he gets another shot can mount a better different defense. its really a case sometimes of getting the "best justice you can afford"
 
Oyeboten said:
If the Cops were demanding he 'drop' a Pistol he had in his Waisteband, and he then reached for it...not so good...

I will say in my own limited experience, that sometimes Police neglect basic common sense and basic people skills, and assume instead a hysterical 'dominance' mode which at once confuses and overwhelms, then they interpret the confusion and shock and overwhelm of the person to suggest insubordination or retisence, and Police then over-react to that as if that were a threat to their life somehow...when what happened, is that the police caused and exploited the 'problem' in their manner of approach...then blaming the victim or the then deceased whom they kill.
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Of course, we don't have the full facts and the witness accounts are conflicting but, taking everything into account, I think you have probably hit the nail on the head with the above explanation.
 
thats the wild card element of appeal if he can get a new trial for something procedural he gets another shot can mount a better different defense. its really a case sometimes of getting the "best justice you can afford"
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What defense is he going to mount??? He's already said he meant to do what he did and that it was the right thing to do. As far as I know, that's admissible in any future proceedings. It is 110% guaranteed that the prosecutor will ask, "Were you lying then, or are you lying now?"

The ONLY way he's getting off is if somebody takes a bribe.
 
I totally, completely, and wholeheartedly agree with Oyeboten's response as well. Even if not the complete story in this case, it is true too much of the time even when the stakes are not as high.

I am too tired of hearing how tough the job is for police officers. These guys need to be put away, period. Even if the story is the worst case scenario that we have heard, which is the guy was acting poorly and then reached for his gun as the officers made contact, the officers need to be severely reprimanded for their poor tactics.
 
Lots of threads on this. Something isn't right. Witnesses say he had no gun in hand.
Did one LEO order him to stop and another order him to get on his knees. Then both shot him?
I hope this is followed. Security cameras should provide evidence.
I hope the "Blue wall" isn't too high.

There has never been a "bad" cop shooting in Las Vegas. Good luck.
A. What was the guy doing "destroying" merchandise???? I imagine that is illegal in Nevada.
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Some say he wasn't. It was fabricated by an employee to get the cops to respond to "man with a gun" call.
When armed police officers tell you to get on the ground, you do it!!!!!!!!!
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So when one cop yells, "get on the ground" and the other yells, "don't move" what would you do. Both shoot.
When asked to leave Costco by the staff, you MUST comply.
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He was shot outside in full view of witnesses who saw no gun.
When armed police officers tell you to get on the ground, you do not pull a gun out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Once again. Witnesses said he did not have a gun in his hand. He did have a gun on him. (don't you?)
Witnesses:
After being shot numerous times, he was handcuffed behind his back although unconscious (or dead), then no attempt was made to save him. Paramedics threw his body on a gurney and drove away. Crime scene? Not any more.
 
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these witnesses?

Several witnesses interviewed by the Review-Journal have said they did not see a gun and did not see Scott reach for a gun when police confronted him outside the store.

But the 72-year-old man, in addition to another witness reached Monday, said they did see the weapon and did see Scott reach for it.

Police have said that Scott drew a pistol and pointed it at officers after they ordered him to raise his hands and lie on the ground. Both witnesses gave their accounts to homicide investigators, they said.

The 72-year-old man heard police say, "Get on the ground. Get on the ground." He saw Scott facing the officers, who were between Scott and the store entrance.

The man said he saw Scott reach with his right hand and pull out what appeared to be a gun in a zippered holster. He recognized the holster, he said, because he has one like it. Officers then fired, and the man saw the gun fall out of Scott's hand. The witness did not see Scott point the gun at officers.

"I feel sorry for the guy, but he just made a dumb move," the 72-year-old man said.

The second witness, who also spoke on the condition that his name not be used, was standing near the entrance when he said he heard police shout, "Get down on the ground. Get down now."

He turned to see why police were yelling, he said, and saw Scott reaching for what appeared to be a pistol in his waistband. The witness said he recognized the butt of the gun and immediately turned toward his wife and covered her as they dove to the ground.

"He was definitely reaching for the gun," the man said.

The witness turned away before he could see whether Scott fully removed the weapon from his waistband and didn't see the shooting. He said it did not appear that Scott was trying to "quick-draw" the weapon on the officers.

He heard gunshots soon after. The witness said he has been struggling with how the incident unfolded.

"It's so totally bizarre to me" that the man would grab the weapon in front of the officers, the witness said.

He added that he doesn't believe the man deserved to die for his actions, as he has heard other people say. But he said he does believe the officers were justified in their response

http://www.lvrj.com/news/man-did-not-pull-gun-on-police-at-costco--lawyer-says-98279344.html
 
I hope for everyone's sake, that COSTCO Surveilance Cameras had good footage of the actual shooting, from an angle where there will be no ambiguity as for the demeanor of the victim.

Whatever this may be...at least Video footage tends to sort of trump other forms of eye-wittness accounts.
 
sounds like an incident that happened to me recently where a guy with road rage tried to yank me out of my car. I pulled my gun from the glovebox and called 911. He backed off and i drove home to meet the officers. Come to find out he was an air martial and the LEO tripped over themselves to make his and his dads testimony on paper seem like I was the agressor when I never left my vehicle.
It was funny reading the dads statements that where one lined like I was sitting there with a gun on my lap calling 911, but funny how the 911 tapes vanished into thin air when my lawyer tried to subpeona them. I would bet the same happens to the Costco Video that would have been trained on the exit.
 
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