Ccw @ ihop

[lizziedog1]

Yesterday I was listening to a local talk radio show. The host is very conservative and very progun. He had the high-sheriff of Carson City on as a guest. They were discussing the recent IHOP shooting.

Apparently the Sheriff's department was getting up to date, accurate details of the unfolding event from one of the witnesses on site. The sheriff said his detailed reporting was insturmental in helping deputies respond.

The host then asked the Sheriff if this person had a CCW as rumored. He confirmed that he did. Then they discussed why he did not attempt to utilize his weapon to try to halt the shooting.

The Sheriff believes he did the right thing. The shooter was using a full automatic rifle. The Sheriff said that you don't take a knife to a gun fight and you don't take a pistol to a rifle fight. That if he had drawn he probably would have been a casuality and the department would have lost key communication.

By the way, the sheriff came across as progun and pro-CCW. He said that there have been many times when a CCW had helped end a criminal activity and that he was thankful for it. But he insisted that this time, the CCW'er acted correctly.

In your opiion, did this CCW guy do the right thing?

What would you have done?

I have been wrestling with this scenario since yesterday, to be honest, I am not sure what I would have done.

I want to hear from those of you that have more experince with this and/or are instructors.

 

[ilbob]

In your opiion, did this CCW guy do the right thing?

What would you have done?

I have been wrestling with this scenario since yesterday, to be honest, I am not sure what I would have done.

I was not there. I don't know what actually happened. 2nd, 3rd, and 4th hand accounts are often not especially accurate.

Do what you have to do to protect you and yours the best you can comes first. If that means hiding under a table, I vote to hide under a table.

 

[alsaqr]

In your opiion, did this CCW guy do the right thing?

Yes, he did the right thing. Don't take a handgun to a rifle fight unless the range is very short.

What would you have done?

The same thing the citizen in the shooting did.

 

[heeler]

I dont know all the facts of the shooting you are talking about.
If I was in a good postion and the guy was very close to me,and hopefully with his back in full view where he could not see me I just might try and take him especially if I thought I was going to be one of his victims.
On the other hand I might have tried to dive right through the nearest plate glass window.
A guy with a rifle of any sort is bad news if his intentions are geared towards shooting people.

I was under the weather yesterday and did not watch or listen to the news until this morning when I heard about another mass shooting that took place at a salon yesterday.

 

[Devonai]

The duration of the shooting could have simply been too short for the armed citizen to react, draw, and return fire. He or she could have had every intention of fighting back, but the incident was over too quickly.

 

[Ranger30-06]

I'm going to agree with the other statements here. Unless you were in a position where the shooter could't react to you (aka behind him or off to the side out of his line of sight) then yes, you are bringing a handgun to a machine gun fight.

 

[aeriedad]

I'm neither an expert nor an instructor, but when in a clearly inferior tactical position I think it's better to stay out of the fight until directly threatened. If given a reasonable chance at success, I would intervene to prevent harm to others, but from the way the sheriff describes this incident, I don't think the CCW citizen had such an opportunity.

Of course, not having been there, all we can really do is speculate on which basic principles should apply and how we might have applied them. Unless presented with compelling evidence to the contrary, I assume the sheriff's professional judgement is much better than our speculation.

 

[Crusader103]

What would you have done?

There are a couple of different viewpoints that tend to be prevalent in the CCW community. The first comes from those that would act only in defense of themselves or those to whom they have a special relationship, i.e. family and friends. The second viewpoint comes from those who believe that it is not only right to come to the aid of the defenseless, but a moral obligation, if such action can reasonably be accomplished.

I will not fault those in the first category but I do tend to lean towards the second. It is not about playing hero so much as I would find it difficult to stand idly by while mayhem is reaped upon those around me.

One question does stand in my way and I often bring it up in my courses. "Alone or with family?"

If I am with my wife and young children my sole purpose is to get them out of harms way. Whether I take the back door or am forced to shoot my way out my only concern is with them and the path that will most assuredly keep them from harm.

If I am alone or with someone I am not obligated to defend (most often another CCW'r with whom I regularly shoot), I find it nearly impossible to believe that I would not make every effort to stop the murderous actions of the attacker. Understandably that would likely place me in danger in a situation that I am not legally obligated to partake in but I simply could not do nothing and feel right with myself. I will not take action to prevent a robbery, etc. But to save a life? Absolutely.

Knowing ahead of time when I would/would not take action I have prepared myself, through training and practice, to address such situations. Anyone else would be wise to do the same, regardless of where their compass lies in regards to when they would or would not take action.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Some background reading from the press for those who are interested, there's much more on the web available with a simple search. Note as always that the media doesn't always get things right, nor do they always tell the whole story. Neither do the witnesses who report the incident to the media or LE.

Is there any reliable confirmation that the AK involved was indeed selective fire?

lpl
=====

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2011/sep/06/report-seven-shot-inside-carson-city-ihop/

http://www.rgj.com/article/20110907...ecounts-attack-says-he-doesn-t-feel-like-hero

http://abcnews.go.com/US/carson-city-shooting-unlike-911-sheriff/story?id=14464852

http://www.rgj.com/article/20110907...Carson-City-IHOP-shooting-reloaded-least-once

 

[SSN Vet]

What would you have done?

I don't know, because I wasn't there, between the hammer and the anvil...

I view most arm chair quarterback critiques with a jaundiced eye, and try to refrain from adding to them (though I admit I sometimes do).

 

[MachIVshooter]

The second viewpoint comes from those who believe that it is not only right to come to the aid of the defenseless, but a moral obligation, if such action can reasonably be accomplished.

I will not fault those in the first category but I do tend to lean towards the second. It is not about playing hero so much as I would find it difficult to stand idly by while mayhem is reaped upon those around me.

I'm with you on this one.

Doesn't mean I'm ready to take a bullet for some stranger and leave my daughters without a father; It means that if I reasonably believe I can do something to increase the chances that someone I don't know will be able to go home to his or her family, I will.

Would I have drawn and fired in the IHOP incident? Maybe, maybe not. If I thought I could flank the shooter and tap him in the back of the head, I probably would. But if my only shot would mean directly facing a rifle with my CCW, I probably wouldn't. Having a sense of moral obligation to protect others doesn't entail commitment to suicidal acts. After all, if you're dead, you can't help anyone.

 

[lizziedog1]

I understand we are dealing with many if's here. We were not there so everything discussed is hypothetical at best. But, I have always wondered what I would do and how I would react in a similar situation.

Another couple of questions.

Would the weapon you happen to carrying at the time influence your actions? I mean would it make a difference if you are carrying some sort of mouse gun versus something more substantial?

Another thought.

If someone pulls into an area like the one mentioned in this thread, and lets say they are returning from deer hunting or the rifle range and they have an accurate, scoped rifle in their vehicle, could they or should they do try to do something?

 

[aeriedad]

Maybe.

Again, general principles will be applied according to specific circumstances. How accessible is my rifle? Is it loaded? How much ammo do I have? Who is with me? Where is the bad guy? Did he see me pull up? How many guns does he have?

If my tactical disadvantage is very great, I stay safe and observe. If my active assistance has a reasonable chance of success, then I do what I can to stop the threat to others. I'm pretty sure I'm following these principles no matter how creative the hypothetical situation.

 

[Mick45]

Mousegun

This makes me think twice about carrying my Kel-tec .32. Yea it is comfortable to carry at 6.6oz, but it feels about as useful as a toothpick against an AK. Any pistol for that matter, but especially a mousegun....... That pause is me rethinking my impotent carry piece. lol. Better get out the ol' .45, still undergunned against a long gun, but I can't carry my M1A around. Can I? lol. Mick

 

[JustinJ]

I agree that there is way too little information available to make an armchair call. If a reasonable chance of neutralizing the threat were present i would find it very difficult to stand by.

 

[heeler]

You asked about if I had one of my hunting rifles and I knew positively what was really going on then the answer would more than likely be yes because I now have a very,very good chance of making a real difference and probably at a safer distance too.
Since I am relatively new to pistol craft my shooting still needs lots of improvement.
On the other hand I have been deer hunting with rifles for nearly 50 years and shoot very well with a long gun.
My confidence level would soar 100 points with a long gun.

 

[Owen Sparks]

I ate breakfast at the local IHop right after this happened and after looking around I belive that I could reliably hit anyone within the dining area with my full sized 1911, especially if I could use a rest like the top of a table or a corner wall.

Was the bad guy outside shooting through the windows?

 

[aeriedad]

If I understand the story right (first link posted by Lee Lapin in Post #9, http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2011...son-city-ihop/), the CCW citizen was outside and saw the bad guy go in after shooting a woman near a motorcycle. Probably happened kinda fast.

I'm pretty good with my 1911 too, but against an AK, I would want VERY short distance and cover & concealment before engaging. We weren't there, so we don't know what opportunities for action the CCW may or may not have had.

 

[zoom6zoom]

Is there any reliable confirmation that the AK involved was indeed selective fire?

First rule of media coverage:
It's always an AK (unless it's a Glock), and it's always "automatic".

 

[Onward Allusion]

lizziedog1
Ccw @ ihop

"don't take a pistol to a rifle fight" about sums it up. That and the CCW holder isn't a LEO. the CCW holder's job is to protect his own bacon and that of his loved ones. IF he happens to contribute to the ending of an illegal event not directed at him, it's gravy.

 

[ants]

As airedad mentions, the CCW man was in a different store across the parking lot.
He was interveiwed several times by local press.
It's clear he was in no position to engage the insane man.
But he did express his regret, many times.

 

[Onward Allusion]

This makes me think twice about carrying my Kel-tec .32. Yea it is comfortable to carry at 6.6oz, but it feels about as useful as a toothpick against an AK. Any pistol for that matter, but especially a mousegun.......

Pretty much any handgun running a handgun caliber is undergunned when compared to an AK. Still better than bare hands or a knife, though.

 

[Creature]

This makes me think twice about carrying my Kel-tec .32. Yea it is comfortable to carry at 6.6oz, but it feels about as useful as a toothpick against an AK. Any pistol for that matter, but especially a mousegun.......

A 32 Keltec can dispatch an AK-toting lunatic just as dead as 44magnum if the opportunity presents itself.

 

[Inebriated]

I don't get the whole "pistol vs. AK" thing in a situation like this. Yes, you will most likely lose in a firefight, but it only takes one well-placed shot to kill the shooter. If you have a shot, by all means, take it. But be sure you're going to connect.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Is there any reliable confirmation that the AK involved was indeed selective fire?

Do you consider the sheriff to be reliable?

First rule of media coverage:
It's always an AK (unless it's a Glock), and it's always "automatic".

You can poopoo the media all you want, but you will be absolutely wrong in the insult in this case. The gun was automatic on all counts. It was an autoloader just like my 1911 is an automatic. It was also an illegally smithed fully automatic Norico copy of an AK47.
http://www.lvrj.com/news/ihop-gunman-used-illegally-altered-ak-47-sheriff-says-131186748.html