Ccw @ ihop

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What would I do? Whatever I had to do to survive. Whether that be hiding, running or firing back depends greatly on the situation and you and your families location to the suspect. The article says he fired 60 rounds, so I'd assume two magazines meaning there had to be a pause for him to reload, unless he had a drum and only put 60 rounds in.
 
I ate breakfast at the local IHop right after this happened and after looking around I belive that I could reliably hit anyone within the dining area with my full sized 1911, especially if I could use a rest like the top of a table or a corner wall.

Did you factor in the extreme amount of stress involved? There are no super long distance shots in your average IHOP, but you add in an active shooter and it's a whole different ball game.
 
I don't know what the skill level of the active shooter was, but regardless, I probably wouldn't have done anything either. You can never gauge how well you can get the jump on or get an upper hand on somebody armed with an automatic rifle. The only time I would probably spring into action is if he got within 7 yards of me and had a malfunction or initiated the mag release phase of a reload. My average draw and target bead takes about 2 seconds (On a good day :uhoh:), but it may be enough time to draw, bead and place 2-3 well-aimed shots while he reloads. Given the stress of the situation, though, I can't really say how I would respond in this situation. I've been shot at before by someone armed with a handgun, with glass flying around and into my ear canal, mouth and clothing but I've never actually been hit or been shot at by someone armed with a rifle. I'm sure the sheer intimidation and noise factor from an automatic rifle would probably make the little hairs on my neck come to attention with the quickness. :p
 
I'm not judging the guy, other than to suggest he not have talked to the media.

Putting myself into that situation, and thinking out load:

On the one hand, I saw this link on another website, a small arms effect video.

http://www.theoutdoorstrader.com/showthread.php?48582-Ballistic-effects-9mm-

Makes it clear that automatic rifles win.

On the other hand, I carry a 10mm with a custom fit barrel I regularly use to shoot 6"x4" targets at 30 yards and some gong hits at 100 yards. In other words, I believe if I'm calm, I can assuredly hit a man sized target at 50-100 yards.

I also would be uncomfortable knowing I opted out when I truly thought I could have stopped further deaths.

Here, in my arm chair, I'd say I'd take the shot if I had cover good enough to block the kind of firepower that video shows.
 
The good guy with the gun wasn't at IHOP, so it isn't a story about a CCW at IHOP. He was in his business across the street. So now, he could not make the 50-100 yard shot with his pistol, but being inside IHOP is another matter. I have no doubt a lot of people could do some good with a pistol at short range. Yes it is high stress. Lots of people shoot under high stress and shoot pretty good - good enough. Not all do, but many do.

Rifle or Machinegun wins against Pistol? If that is what you believe, then that is what it will be for you. Just because one party has an advantage does not mean they will necessarily win.
 
Everyone is under the impression that a pistol is ineffective against an AK.

You would not be trying to hit the AK, just the man holding it who is probably too busy shooting at everyone else to notice someone taking aim from behind cover. While it is true that the deminuitive pocket .380's that are in vogue right now might not be up to the task, a compitent shooter with any pistol suitable for IDPA should be able to hit a man across the dining room of any IHop that I have ever been in. The one in my town has a horse shoe shaped dining area with the kitchen in the middle. The longest possible shot might be 50 feet.
 
You all remember years ago when that nutcase when on a shooting spree from a clock tower at a Texas university?

The local LEO's only had service revolvers and shotguns. They couldn't come close to reaching the shooter. Finally some locals showed up with their hunting rifles and began to return fire on him. Even though they were not hitting him, they were coming close enough that he had to start ducking and taking cover.

What does this have to do with that? Not much I suppose.

The point is that if possible, you return rifle fire with rifle fire.
 
Owen Sparks said:
Everyone is under the impression that a pistol is ineffective against an AK.

No, but attacking a man with a machinegun ought to be done in a manner and at a time where the odds of living through it are better, or when there is no other choice.

It doesn't appear here that the CCW holder felt he was at either of those places, and I can't really blame him much.

This is one of these philosophical discussions, better taken to General than S&T, about whether a concealed carrier is a (and I hate this term) "Sheepdog" for the world or just his immediate family.

I won't fault a guy for being on either side of that one.

Like Double Naught says, this guy was across the street. The last time I read about a concealed handgun carrier engaging a nut armed with a rifle, it didn't end well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Alan_Wilson
 
The host then asked the Sheriff if this person had a CCW as rumored. He confirmed that he did. Then they discussed why he did not attempt to utilize his weapon to try to halt the shooting.

The person they were talking about with the CCW was the owner of Local's BBQ Ralph Swagler and he was in his restaurant that is about 50 yards from I Hop across the parking lot. I have not herd of anyone that was inside I Hop that had a CCW.

Not that it makes much difference here in Nevada, that I Hop is posted no firearms. The AK used has been confirmed to have been illegally modified to fire full auto.

In this situation I think the guy made a good choice not engaging the shooter at that distance, across a parking lot with people scampering around in the background and every else for that matter. When the shooter noticed Swagler at the door of his restaurant on the phone, the shooter unleashed a bunch of rounds at him and broke a bunch of plate glass at Local's.
 
Would the weapon you happen to carrying at the time influence your actions? I mean would it make a difference if you are carrying some sort of mouse gun versus something more substantial?

To some extent. Knowing that my P3AT lacks the power and practical accuracy of my Bulldog Pug .44, CS-45 or G20, I'd be less likely to engage a threat like this one. I have confidence in the .380 and my P3AT, but consider it basically a contact distance cartridge and gun combo. I carry it when I'm in light clothing, good parts of town and by myself. Good part of town and family is with me, Bulldog or CS-45. Not so good areas and family in tow, Glock 20 with two spare mags.

So, if I were with the family at IHOP or some other restaurant, chances are I'm decently armed. Of course, priority one is ensuring their safety, so engaging the threat directly is secondary to ensuring their safety, unless it is one and the same.

If someone pulls into an area like the one mentioned in this thread, and lets say they are returning from deer hunting or the rifle range and they have an accurate, scoped rifle in their vehicle, could they or should they do try to do something?

Well, I always have a scoped AR-15 in my car, but I would be unlikely to engage from outside for two reasons:

1) Shooting through windows/doors is dangerous to the innocent occupants within the structure. Glass can drastically alter a bullet's trajectory, especially a small, high velocity projectile.

2) When the police arrive, they may mistake you for (one of) the crazed gunman and kill you.

I Might take up a position with the rifle, but only after having infomed the dispatcher of what I was doing, and would only take a shot if A) there were zero barriers between myself and the BG or B) he exits the structure and continues his rampage.

Trying to play cop is dangerous for a civilian. The responding LEO's are likely to consider anyone with a gun to be a threat, and in the chaos of the situation, may shoot first and ask questions later. I'd hate to be shot as a reward for trying to defend others.
 
I was actually pretty impressed by the media coverage of this story, as they seemed to be making a real effort to get the details correct, even in the early reports.
 
The Nevada media has been decent with this story.

But the owner the 'Locals Barbecue Co.' could have avoided all the discussion about his personal decision on engaging the shooter by keeping his mouth shut.
 
If in the IHOP, of course I would have but in this situation, No!

Just a couple of reasons for this:
1. Some said you don't take a pistol to a rifle fight, heck, you don't take a handgun to a gun fight if given the choice. It matters not what handgun you have. None are a match for a rifle unless you are very very good and very very lucky AND the rifleman is pretty incompetent.

2. Although I would have hated to live with myself after making a decision based on this reason, I don't want to be in the poor house after defending myself in court or being crucified by the media for being a gun crazy vigilante. While from the sheriff interview it appears that the local authorities would be supportive, how many places would they not. Most??? Eager DA's love cases like that to make a name for themselves.

Fact is that although it pains me to say it, I belong to the camp who carry only to protect of myself, my family, and close friends. And it may, heck it is cold hearted to say it but, people have to live with their own decisions. They decided not to carry a gun for their own protection so now that have to pay the consequences.

I do feel for the kids who were in there as they had not choice but I still wouldn't comment suicide by running into the building trying to take out a mad man with a rifle. The kids would trouble me the most.
 
My father has always said, "Timing is everything".
The right choice might not be the right decision.
I wasn't there so I can't contribute much.
 
From the OP:

The host then asked the Sheriff if this person had a CCW as rumored. He confirmed that he did. Then they discussed why he did not attempt to utilize his weapon to try to halt the shooting.

The Sheriff believes he did the right thing. The shooter was using a full automatic rifle. The Sheriff said that you don't take a knife to a gun fight and you don't take a pistol to a rifle fight.

That line of reasoning is absolutely false. It's illogical for the simple reason that both the CCW and the perp were equally or nearly-equally armed. Let me explain: In a situation where the distance is less than 50 feet, both possessed equal ability to stop the other. The perp had two slight advantages. The first was that his firearm was already drawn. The second is that because it was a rifle, it'll be both more powerful and more accurate than the firearm carried by the CCW.

So what? One round from a 9mm is enough to disrupt the perp's ability to accurately fire the rifle. If it's a .357, 40, or 45, all the better. Double-tap the perp and you'll slow him way down if not stop him altogether, certainly enough to make a head shot count, assuming you're close enough to make sure you don't miss.

As the line in Starship Troopers goes, "How can he pull the trigger if you disable his hand?" Naturally, you're not aiming for his hand. But if you're both squared off at one another, it doesn't matter whether he has a peashooter, a handgun, a shotgun, or a rifle. If you stop him, then you stop him from shooting you.

I believe the sheriff's mistake lay in the fact they're trained not to shoot unless as a matter of last resort. Their repertoire covers talk-downs, take-downs, and the use of non-lethal force before it gets to lethal force. We privately-armed citizens may or may not have had such training, but in that particular situation, where the guy is dropping restaurant patrons left and right, the only remaining solution is to take him out. The longer you wait, the more others, and possibly yourself, will die.

Having said that, there are several justifiable reasons as to why the CCW hesitated or refused to draw his firearm, including being eyed by the perp or being surrounding by friends or family.

That if he had drawn he probably would have been a casualty and the department would have lost key communication.

That depends on the CCW's skills and experience.

By the way, the sheriff came across as progun and pro-CCW. He said that there have been many times when a CCW had helped end a criminal activity and that he was thankful for it. But he insisted that this time, the CCW'er acted correctly.

In your opiion, did this CCW guy do the right thing?

As I wasn't there, and don't have the details as to how things unfolded, I'll have to take the sheriff's word for it.

What would you have done?

If the perp's rifle were pointed in any other direction than at me, I can draw and fire before he can train on me. But I usually OC, not CC. Had I been CCing, I'd have waited until the perp's attention was clearly elsewhere before I drew and fired.

Had I been OCing, since I can draw and double-tap a man-sized target in less than a second, that's precisely what I'd have done.

I want to hear from those of you that have more experience with this and/or are instructors.

Does military service count?

I also speak as one who has open carried to IHOP at least once a week for several years. I've often thought about what I would have done and can come to no conclusion other than I would have take out the perp ASAP.
 
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DoggerDan, the CCW guy was not in I Hop, he was in his own restaurant 50 yards away on the phone with 911. There was no one in the I Hop at the time with a gun other then the perp.
 
The thing that jumps to mind for me in such a situation is the type/caliber of the concealed carrier's gun. If I were in that situation and carrying (the physically smallest gun I own) a .38 snub, I would be reluctant to engage at any more than point-blank range. Yes, that little Taurus 85 does a decent job out to 30' or even 50’, but that's on a good day (for me) at the range. Others can do much better I'm sure; I am by no means a crack shot. However, with my Sig 1911 I would have a LOT more confidence in my ability to engage an active target at 20', 30' or even 50' (probably the extreme limit inside a restaurant). There is also the issue of capacity; five shot .38 vs a nine shot 1911.

Whether you carry openly or concealed, it seems better in these types of situations, rare as they are, to have a full sized 9mm, .40, 10mm, or .45 than a snub nosed .38, .380, or even a pocket sized gun in 9mm or above. If you prefer concealed carry, or concealed is mandated, it might be good to fully understand how 'printing' is looked at in your state. Here in WA it's no big deal, so if the butt of my 1911 shows when I'm bending over, or the wind blows my jacket open exposing the G20 beneath, so what? A full sized gun I can shoot accurately is more important to me than 100% imperceptible carry.
 
Everyone is under the impression that a pistol is ineffective against an AK.

You would not be trying to hit the AK, just the man holding it who is probably too busy shooting at everyone else to notice someone taking aim from behind cover. While it is true that the deminuitive pocket .380's that are in vogue right now might not be up to the task, a compitent shooter with any pistol suitable for IDPA should be able to hit a man across the dining room of any IHop that I have ever been in. The one in my town has a horse shoe shaped dining area with the kitchen in the middle. The longest possible shot might be 50 feet.

I found the video below in another THR thread this morning. Yes, the deputy made some bad mistakes, but all the shooting here takes place within what appears to be less than 30 feet. The officer and his pistol were plainly out-matched by a Bad Guy and M-1 carbine. Although wounded by handgun fire, the BG proceeded to kill the deputy and drive away.

We don't always have the luxury of choosing the circumstances for BG encounters. If it's my 1911 against a full-auto AK, I would not attempt to take out the BG without cover and concealment or unless he's a direct threat to my immediate vicinity. At the Carson City IHOP, the CCW was across the street. Engaging the BG from there with a rifle would be reckless, and engaging from there with a handgun would be both reckless and ineffective. Crossing the street and entering the IHOP to engage the BG at close range with a handgun would also be reckless, maybe even suicidal. Active assistance makes much more sense if you're already inside the IHOP when you hear the BG shoot the woman outside near the motorcycle. Maybe prepare to draw handgun and seek cover and concealment at that point, so when the BG enters firing his AK, you MIGHT have a fighting chance. The CCW in this story had no such opportunity, since--as pointed out so many times already--he was across the street with a handgun. In this case, a handgun IS ineffective.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=969_1263249923
 
To those that say a handgun is no weapon to take to a rifle fight. Perhaps some of you will remember this:

Fairchild Air Force Base
1994
MAK-90 rifle vs. Beretta 9mm handgun (ball ammo).
5 dead. 22 wounded.

An Air Force Security Policeman rode his bike to the scene, was shot at, and returned fire from a distance of 70 yards. He won.

http://fairchildhospitalshooting.com/page3.php

Mellberg entered the Hospital with his rifle. He found the two doctors who he blamed for his discharge and the ruination of his career. He killed them first and went on through the hospital shooting at men, women and children, military and civilian.

Mellberg chased people outside and ended up on the road adjacent the hospital.
I was on bike patrol in the area and heard the call of a man with a gun at the hospital. I rode south and he was walking north on Graham road. I observed him on Graham road firing the rifle, and ordered him to drop the weapon. Mellberg did not obey the command and fired in my direction. I returned fire, shooting four times, hitting the killer twice from a distance of approximately 70 yards, with a 9mm Beretta handgun. The lifesaving shot hit Mellberg on the bridge of his nose, entering his head, passing fatally through his brain as it exited the base of his skull.

Just because the odds are stacked against you does not mean you don't fight. Worry about the stress and why you should have lost after you decisively win. Because you can.
 
Wow..I honestly dont remember that mass shooting Jscott but that was quite a shot that security guard made.
 
My understanding is the man was outside and close to a hundred yards away from the shooter and armed with his concealed carry pistol. I'm not taking a 100 yard shot against a man armed with an AK with a pistol through glass, particularly a pistol I'm likely to be concealing. Not if I don't have to. Nor am I charging across a parking lot into a gunfight with an AK. If I'm there and it happens in my face that is one thing. I'm not a cop and I don't think that cops would want me to do it either. My guess is the first officer that responded waited for back up as well and he has a service sized handgun, long gun available and a vest and training.
 
Everyone is under the impression that a pistol is ineffective against an AK.

You would not be trying to hit the AK, just the man holding it who is probably too busy shooting at everyone else to notice someone taking aim from behind cover. While it is true that the deminuitive pocket .380's that are in vogue right now might not be up to the task, a compitent shooter with any pistol suitable for IDPA should be able to hit a man across the dining room of any IHop that I have ever been in. The one in my town has a horse shoe shaped dining area with the kitchen in the middle. The longest possible shot might be 50 feet.
The 7.62x39 round is very effective at turning cover into concealment. A bank of booths at a restaurant probably won't do you much good. Sorry but in that type of situation I'm going to try and gather up anyone who's close by and bug the heck out.
 

Yep, Mark Wilson with his Glock lost against a guy with a rifle, but it wasn't the rifle/pistol dichotomy that resulted in Wilson's loss, but the fact that the bad guy was wearing body armor. Wilson shot the guy several times before the bad guy turned and shot Wilson. Unfortunately, most of the rounds hit the body armor.

Maybe this would be a better example where Assam who was armed with a pistol stopped a shooter who was armed with a rifle.
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/14817480/detail.html

To be honest, I am a bit surprised at so much defeatest sentiment when it comes to self defense. Don't take a pistol to a rifle fight? An AK47 turns cover into concealment? Come on! Nobody is suggesting that it is prudent to take a pistol to a rifle fight. That can put you at a disadvantage, but the reality of it is that the rifle was taken to the folks in IHOP. So it isn't about taking a pistol to a rifle fight, but finding yourself in a rifle fight armed with a pistol (which nobody in IHOP had). The gun being carried does not make either participant any more or less bullet proof.

There are numerous incidents where people find themselves in "gunfights" (shootings) unarmed and come out victorious. Nobody wants to be put into that position, but those who are often victorious were smart about how they chose to fight. Whether you use a gun or not, being smart about how you choose to fight can be critical to your survival.
 
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