CCW permit holder killed with own handgun

[NavyLCDR]

That being said, Navy, you have to admit that there are cases of which Ringo has mentioned. There are those "Types" of OC'er that walk around puffy chested strutting & make a point that everyone can see his gun like he's a Billy badass.

That is true of every segment of the population including concealed carriers. A few concealed carriers look for any opportunity to whip their guns out to solve situations that do not warrant deadly force. Parents at sporting events. Vehicle drivers. It doesn't matter what group of people we are talking about there are those "Types" in every group.

However, we have enough problems with the Brady Campaign and other anti-gun groups stereotyping gun carriers. When members of the pro-gun groups stereotype segments of their own kind, that hurts our cause more than the anti-gun groups.

Would it not be an ignorant statement for me to make if I said that concealed carriers were wild west vigilanties with superhero complexes in disguise who hide their guns hoping that a criminal will attack them so they can play quick draw and rid the world forever of evildoers? Yes, that would be quite an ignorant statement to make.

 

[Ringolevio]

K-Rod:

Navy has always been an advocate of OCing. Nobody is going to change his mind or reasoning for that. He's based his reason's on the facts he's investigated & though my opinion is to CC because of my beliefs, I can appreciate SOME of the points he's made. That being said, Navy, you have to admit that there are cases of which Ringo has mentioned. There are those "Types" of OC'er that walk around puffy chested strutting & make a point that everyone can see his gun like he's a Billy badass. I'm not accusing or even suggesting Navy is that type. I've a lot of his threads & comments & he doesn't strike me as being that type.

Are you quite sure? Because I've read a lot of NavyLCDR's posts; I know that nobody is going to change his mind, but I just have to wonder about somebody who is so in love with a patently unwise behavior that he jumps through hoops to justify it (even to the point of now trying to shift the onus to irresponsible CCers).

He has stated in this very thread that he only OCs in neighborhoods where he is unlikely to be challenged. So it's a bit like wearing your "I'm a Badass" T-shirt only to tea parties and PTA meetings.

Even NavyLCDR knows better than to go boppin' through the "inner city" openly armed (and w/o the authority of a uniform and badge). What does it say about you if you only OC where you know it's "safe" to do so? Does that sound as if your motivation is really "deterrence"?

I routinely move among folks who may not be criminals, but who are constantly occupied with issues of "respect" and "disrespect" (in my world, this isn't even limited to certain neighborhoods). OC will get their instant attention, and not in a good way. If you're OCing, your gun may not be snatched outright; first you will be taunted and provoked and dared to use it. I can gar-on-tee that this will happen.

Ponder this: The very idea that citizens may be carrying concealed serves as a deterrent even if nobody chooses to exercise that right.
Ponder this also: If OC is so tactically advantageous, why don't detectives, Secret Service, bodyguards etc. OC?

Bottom line? From a very young age, I have received, in various forms, the following good advice:
"Don't put your business in the street."

 

[NavyLCDR]

Funny, Ringolevio, you sound like you are reciting a script written by the Brady Campaign. Just take your statements, cross out "open carries' and write in "carries a gun" and you sound exactly like them.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

That is true of every segment of the population including concealed carriers. A few concealed carriers look for any opportunity to whip their guns out to solve situations that do not warrant deadly force. Parents at sporting events. Vehicle drivers. It doesn't matter what group of people we are talking about there are those "Types" in every group.

I once saw a guy flash a Beretta 92 in a shoulder holster when he was simply putting his wallet away. He completely and purposely brushed his cover shirt away from it.

 

[Owen Sparks]

This is another example of why you can not allow someone to lay hands on you in malice, especially when a weapon is present. I remember that back before retention holsters became common something like one in five police officers that were shot in the line of duty were shot with a snatched service weapon.

 

[Snowbandit]

My personal policy is to never open carry without a concealed back-up. I'll carry concealed without a back-up though as the odds of a grab attempt are pretty slim.

 

[Rail Driver]

My personal policy is to never open carry without a concealed back-up. I'll carry concealed without a back-up though as the odds of a grab attempt are pretty slim.

This is how I do it when I'm in an OC state. I can't OC legally here in Florida very often aside from in and around my home (on my property) and a few various exceptions (camping, hunting, fishing, range, to and from those activities), but I do travel to OC states often enough that it's a consideration for me.

 

[heeler]

I can understand the retention holster if you oc but if the owner of the holster knows how to retrieve the pistol from this type of holster eventually so will a bad guy learn as well.
Not only does he get his hands on a fully loaded handgun but also one that is probably worth several hundreds of dollars that he can in turn sell for a decent price on the street.

 

[CONNEX 3300]

I certainly don't expect this to put an end to all the convoluted rationalizations for OC by guys who (consciously or subconciously) just can't get enough of the attention that comes from strutting around with a gun on their hip, and who, in defiance of all logic and commonsense (not to mention any understanding of thug mentality) will continue to try to justify it.

If you do not think OC is wise, do not OC. And there is nothing wrong with telling others why you think it is not safe.
BUT it is completely unreasonable to actually vote or campaign against OC for people who want to do it. Just because YOU are scared of people who OC does not mean that THEY should give up their constitutional rights. There will always be people who do unwise things with rights from the Constitution. That doesn't mean we should take those rights away.

And for the record, I am not accusing you of opposing OC. But there are many anti-gun/anti-OC that would make statements similar to yours so I am refering to the anti-OC movement, not you in particular.

 

[Owen Sparks]

A lot of people think carrying a pistol is a substitute for knowing how to fight.

It is not.

Just as a good wrestler will make short work of a boxer IF he can get inside punching distance, anyone who gets his hands on you before you have your pistol drawn and aligned will have a tremendous advantage if they know how to fight and you don't.

 

[huntsman]

The First guy who was killed realized his mistake and that’s why he chased the BG, whether his mistake was OC or allowing to be disarmed is debatable. But I don’t think it’s debatable that OC made him a target.

 

[mljdeckard]

Ringolevio, your insistence that people only open carry for one reason, and unwillingness to entertain the possibility that there are other reasons to do so really only says why YOU would open carry, it says little about why others may or may not do it. Navylcdr has always been rational and well-reasoned, you are giving blanket reasons that you think apply to everyone, and they absolutely do not.

The insistence that the presence and knowledge of more guns in society can only be a problem is an anti argument. It is easier to condition yourself to an idea that is the commonly held belief, whether it is true or not. It is impossible to know that the temptation of seeing a gun and wanting to snatch it isn't at least mitigated, if not entirely outweighed, by the deterrent effect of knowing a person is armed, and wanting to avoid them. To insist this is opinion, not fact, and you are stating it as if it were fact.

 

[offonroad]

The older a person gets, fighting becomes less of an option. Less of an option for folks with dissabilities as well.

 

[Owen Sparks]

One of the main reasons I choose a 1911 is because of the thumb safety. I have handed it to enough experienced shooters to try at the range only to have to show them how to take the safety off. This includes competitive IDPA shooters and police officers who were all Glock people. I am convinced that the typical criminal does not know how to take the safety off either and will not figure it out before I punch his lights out.

 

[Birch Knoll]

There's always the Magna-Trigger modification, if you really, REALLY don't want your gun used against you. The user must wear a magnetic ring in order for the gun to fire. This would undoubtedly be very frustrating indeed to a gun-snatcher.

 

[allaroundhunter]

I can understand the retention holster if you oc but if the owner of the holster knows how to retrieve the pistol from this type of holster eventually so will a bad guy learn as well.

With a good retention holster, it is hard to remove the pistol without having a proper grip. A proper grip is hard for a BG to attain on a weapon on someone else's hip (unless the carrier is completely clueless).

 

[mljdeckard]

^^ Correct. This is the whole idea of a retention holster, it isn't as easy as just running up and grabbing the gun, or pushing the button.

 

[heeler]

Thanks for the clarification as I dont own any sort of retention style holster.
Although as was already noted by lemaymiami,about a third of police officers killed are by their own handguns so surely of this percent a number had retention holsters dont you think?

 

[allaroundhunter]

Although as was already noted by lemaymiami,about a third of police officers killed are by their own handguns so surely of this percent a number had retention holsters dont you think?

I would guess that 99.99% of police officers have at least a level II retention holster. However, of these officers that are killed with their own weapon, it is not removed from their holster by the BG each time.

If the officer were to draw his weapon and hesitate too long before firing, it could turn into a hand-to-hand struggle over the weapon.


IMO, many departments do not give a necessary amount of weapon retention training. Some officers that I have talked to have a false sense of security when wearing a level III retention holster.

 

[JohnnyK]

good point about back up gun! mine's an AK in my truck....

 

[allaroundhunter]

mine's an AK in my truck....

I recommend a shoulder harness for concealed carry

 

[K-Rod]

Ringo, as I said, I agree with you on most of what your saying but, I don't agree that ALL OC'ers are one way. I don't know Navy personally & I've had debates with him about OC & CC. As I said, some of his logic seems sound but I still carry the way I believe & that's CC purely because I don't like bringing attention upon myself. That being said, I know there are states the don't allow CC, at least its my understanding. If it was my only option, I would OC because its my Constitutional right & I'd never tell anyone to not defind their right. I know where I live, its an either or state. I know WA is as well. I don't know if Navy has a CCW. Its not my business to ask such a question, I have asked him in the past why would a person bring attention upon themselves OC'ing if they live in a CC state. His answer was the same as he writes here, "Its a deterant". I can see the point in that in SOMEA cases. Unfortunately as we've seen, it doesn't work in all. Now I've also asked him what about how it makes some people, namely the people affraid of guns or even the sight of a gun, uncomfortable. "Why would you OC if you knew you were scaring people that posed no threat?" His answer was plain & clear & many other OC'ers chimed in to agree, "Why would I give up my Constitutional right because some soccer mom was uneducated?" That I don't agree with. We everyday have our right to bear arms on the chopping block everyday. We as gun owners have a responsibility to be respectful at the same time as defending our right. If you live in a OC only state, defend your right to do so but don't be a show-off or Billy Bad-ass & walk around with a big shiny .44mag Canon strapped to your hip scaring everyone. There are plenty larger caliber less obtrusive pistols out there that'll do the same job. If you live in a CC state, still defend your right & get your CCW even if you choose to OC. that way if you find yourself surrounded by the timid, you can cover it up. In my opinion, respecting is the first step to educating. Now, I understand there are those that can't, for whatever reason, get a CCW but can still OC. Again, defend that right but in a less obtrusive & respectful way. Don't be like that idiot on YouTube that applied numerous times for his CCW just to be denied & because he could still OC, he'd walk down main street with an AK-47 slung over his back dressed in militarily fatigues scaring the hell out of everyone yelling, "Its my right!!!" Again, its your right but its also your responsibility to be respectful while defending your right to defend yourselves.

Like I said, I don't believe Navy to be this sort. Call it a hunch but I don't get that vibe from him, but if I found myself walking downtown Seattle & saw a guy packing a canon flashing it for everyone to see & bringing attention upon himself, & I found out later that guy was Navy, I'd publicly retract my previous opinion of him & call him an idiot.

 

[gym]

You can't fix certain things, like the ability to read sitations faster than the next guy. If I smell anything wrong even slightlly off, my hand goes into my pocket and on to my lcp. You can hit me in the head, but your still going to catch a round or two. Having a pocket pistol or hideout gun is the best way to handle situations when things go very wrong.
I take my dog out at night and it's dark enough to not see your hand in front of your face. When I leave my home my hand is on my secondary, and when I come back in, same thing. Some may say that's a bit over the top, but they haven't been shot at. If you are carrying concealed and can't get your gun out immediatlly, within 1 second, then you are just wasting your time. You're not likelly to see anything coming untill it's on top of you.Then that fancy gun you practice with at the range, is either burried under a jacket or inside your pants someware where you can't get to it fast enough. Get a 380 that fits in your front pocket, thats where your hand should be. If you have time you can go to your 40 "or whatever you carry", but nothing is faster tha having a gun already in your hand.

 

[Bobson]

One (among many others) moral here might be to keep one simple thing in mind:

If you're armed, your attacker (or potential attacker) presents a deadly threat once he's within arm's reach of you, even if he doesn't seem to be in possession of his own weapon. Don't ever allow anyone to engage in any sort of physical grappling with you when you're armed. Better to draw your weapon early.

Thankfully, my state laws concerning self defense support this notion.

 

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

Navy seems to me to be a straight forward, honest individual that will give anyone his honest opinion at any time. He also seems to be the type to not give a tinkers damn if you like his opinion or not. If you don't want an honest, straight forward opinion, do not pose a question.

OC and CC either one can be dangerous given different circumstances. I am one that, when I lived in a state that allowed the carry of firearms, always CC even though it was perfectly legal to do either. I am heavily trained in self defense of multiple styles and weapons retention is number one on my list when I carry. As it should be for ANYONE including LEO. My honest opinion is there is NEVER too much training to be had in weapons retention period. More people, LEO and Civilian, have been shot with their own weapon AFTER drawing than it being "snatched" from it's holster by a HUGE percentage. The case in this thread is by far in the rare file.

While there are a few that OC simply for attention or a "Look at me I'm carrying a gun" status, most that I know and knew that OC do so for simplicity. No adjustment of clothing needed such as a jacket or vest in warm weather and some just felt better not having to worry about it printing or whatever. Some also felt more comfortable with OC because it would be easier for them to get to if it was needed. That quarter to half second one may need to clear a shirt tail, jacket, or vest to draw made them less comfortable than just "grab and go".

Myself, I am a pretty large individual and tend to have a "presence" about me that most "bad guys" would rather not engage. Carrying a firearm openly would probably deter most of the other idiots that would actually be foolish enough to try to jump my big ass. But then again, it would also tend to scare the bejesus out of your typical soccer mom as well so it would be kind of a social "mark" against me. It's a tossup in any way that you want to look at it. My own personal choice, being that I am an American citizen, is just that, MY OWN CHOICE. Those of you that are arguing about OC, try living here in Illinois for a little while then you will rethink that position.