A man open carrying is murdered with his own gun

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SunnySlopes

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I know this subject is hotly contested by people on both sides of the discussion, but this is a news article about a man who had his gun snatched from his holster, and was shot to death with his own gun.

I wonder what kind of holster and what kind of retention device he had.

From the article.

Tyler, 48, a customer at the gas station, was wearing a gun in a holster, plainly visible, when Smith grabbed the weapon from Tyler during a struggle inside the store and shot Tyler in the chest after the victim chased Smith, authorities said.

http://www.timesdispatch.com/news/l...cle_5971f160-05d5-11e3-b11c-0019bb30f31a.html

I don't open carry except maybe when I'm hunting. This is one reason why.
 
I open carry daily, because that's what my job requires of me... and, my profession has definitely lost a number of officers to shots that were fired from their own guns. The simple fact remains: 1) If you can draw your gun from a holster, so can someone else. 2) If your gun is easy to draw from the holster, it will be easy for someone else who is familiar with the holster to draw the gun. 3) If your gun is hard for someone else to remove from the holster, odds are that it will also be hard for you to remove as well.

If you're open carrying with any kind of regularity, you'd probably be best served by carrying at least a Level 2 retention holster, which is generally the agency-specified minimum for most police departments. Additionally, you really ought to get some training/practice with weapon retention techniques if you choose to carry in such a manner (at least if you're carrying in a place where you expect a bad people threat to be your biggest concern -- as opposed to an animal threat).

For me personally, when I'm off-duty I'm carrying concealed. A concealed firearm allows me to outwardly appear like everyone else. I'm not immediately identified and targeted as a threat (or opportunity) by a bad guy, and I retain the element of surprise right up until the time I need to reveal it.

I'm not trying to tell anyone what to do on this subject, but these are some considerations that I hope people think about along the way. My girlfriend often open carries, so it isn't like I'm outwardly opposed to the idea categorically speaking. But, my girlfriend is also POST certified, knows a thing or two about weapons retention, and carries in a Level 2 holster. In most cases when she open carries she is doing so because of wildlife-related threats, rather than people-related threats.
 
While we can all agree that this type of thing is awful, there's one thing that seems to really leap out even at a quick glance over the OP's post:

. . .and shot Tyler in the chest after the victim chased Smith. . .
Why would you chase a man who just wrestled your only firearm away from you?
 
Well, all of my thoughts have already been expressed by the first two replies in the thread.
 
*Psst!* Anymore talk about the Criminal justice system will likely get the thread locked!

Back on topic, Is a retention holster like a BLACKHAWK! SERPA a level 3?
 
The SERPA is availible both as a single lock, and double lock models. It depends on how much money you spend.

This is why retantion TRAINING is important. I don't know of any public safety agency that lets their officers strap on a gun without going through some kind of training in weapon retention...

But for some reason regular joes think they can strap a hi-point to their side in an Uncle Mikes Nylon holster without any training, and everything will be OK... Just like they think they don't need any formal shoot training... Just like they think they don't need any preemptive legal council... Just like they think they don't need to do any stress drills, ect.

I open carry for work, and I have on many occasions open carried in my private life - but a gun is not a magic talisman that will turn away badguys. You need to know how to use it, and how to KEEP it.
 
I dunno....I mean why wear an expensive and wildly popular black market item on your hip for all to see? Just doesn't make a lick of sense to me. Sure you can say you are 100% operationally aware all the time and that would never happen to you....but I'd say you are lying to yourself and there are times you've let your guard down....we're only human.

That said, as soon as I read the gun was chasing the bad guy down I knew this wouldn't end well. Bad idea all around.
 
This is why retantion TRAINING is important. I don't know of any public safety agency that lets their officers strap on a gun without going through some kind of training in weapon retention...

That excellent point seems to escape OCers.
 
This happened several years ago in Richmond, VA. It is the only event of its kind on record in Virginia that we know about. When you consider how many in that state OC and how often, this is an extremely low percentage. The man also made a fatal mistake.
 
One more time

I am against OC as I used to train LEO's in weapon retention and that did not stop many from having their guns taken.

Thankfully it eneded in a wrestling match and not death = BUT that was luck and not skill.

I was the instructor and I was cocky about my skill,a martial arts teacher of mine offered to take my gun from any holster I chose,I chose a level 2 = HE TOOK IT AT WILL AS OFTEN AS I CHALLENGED HIM.

I see OC as an invitation for a punk to take it from you at knife point = his knife is out and your gun is holstered.

Resisting would be stupid ,as would letting him know you have a gun and he could take it.

That's my take,yes I too carry open when hunting = period.

And as an retired LEO ,I carried open for decades and I also carried a BUG just in case my primary was taken [ that hand in my pocket was FULL :) ]
 
I dunno....I mean why wear an expensive and wildly popular black market item on your hip for all to see? Just doesn't make a lick of sense to me.

I guess you shouldn't wear a Rolex watch either, then?

I was at a LGS a couple of weeks ago and they had a Safariland retention holster on display with a blue gun in it. I was pretty impressed with how stealthy the release was and how well it worked.
 
While he certainly didn't help himself by chasing the thief (understatement of the year), this could have been a case were one of those universally reviled magazine safeties could have come in handy?

I know...everybody "hates" them, but they don't bother me.
A few of my guns have them, most don't, but it makes little difference with me one way or the other (the Browning Hi Power being the possible exception?).

I always thought if I was an LEO I would prefer one - mebbe if I was a regular OCer, I might also prefer one?
 
HexHead said:
I guess you shouldn't wear a Rolex watch either, then?

Actually no....safety starts with making yourself not stand out. If I were looking for someone to rob you'd be sure a guy wearing a Rolex would draw my attention.

When you go to the bank do you count your cash while walking through the parking lot to your car?
 
But for some reason regular joes think they can strap a hi-point to their side in an Uncle Mikes Nylon holster without any training, and everything will be OK... Just like they think they don't need any formal shoot training... Just like they think they don't need any preemptive legal council... Just like they think they don't need to do any stress drills, ect.

add any more "requirements" and you'll be eligible to run for mayor of Chicago, NYC or DC :neener:
 
An extremly rare occurance exacerbated by the ignorance of both victims. Why anyone chases a man with a gun much less the one that was just stolen from you coupled with a guy so on white that when an armed robber walks up to his car he tells him to wait because he's on the phone.
This is hardly an indictment against OC and the frequency of gun grabs seems quite rare against public OCers. To use this as a reason to call for more mandatory training when there appears to be other causes relating to the fatalities is more self serving rhetoric.
 
That's very unfortunate for the man and his family, but this is hardly a good case to use against OC across the board. This is much more a case for maintaining situational awareness at all times, no matter your method of carry, and to not try and chase down the man that your carelessness gave a firearm to.
 
Actually no....safety starts with making yourself not stand out. If I were looking for someone to rob you'd be sure a guy wearing a Rolex would draw my attention.

When you go to the bank do you count your cash while walking through the parking lot to your car?
This line of thinking has always annoyed me a little bit. I suppose I shouldn't drive my Denali anywhere either, just in case someone wants it. Maybe we should all stop having nice things because there's a chance someone might want it. Maybe we should all stay at home, because I can assure you that the type of person that would violently take something from another person, can find something they want from any of us.

Back on topic, I do agree training is a must, but I can't agree that Youtube is the place I'd go to receive it. If you can't be bothered to receive legitimate training, pull a shirt over your firearm or deal with the consequences of your decisions.
 
This line of thinking has always annoyed me a little bit. I suppose I shouldn't drive my Denali anywhere either, just in case someone wants it. Maybe we should all stop having nice things because there's a chance someone might want it. Maybe we should all stay at home, because I can assure you that the type of person that would violently take something from another person, can find something they want from any of us.

Meh, it's a slippery slope. I mean why carry a gun at all? The odds of you actually needing it and using it are infinitesimal. So you'll carry a gun but you don't believe in keeping a low profile and not advertising you are a wealthy target?
 
Meh, it's a slippery slope. I mean why carry a gun at all? The odds of you actually needing it and using it are infinitesimal. So you'll carry a gun but you don't believe in keeping a low profile and not advertising you are a wealthy target?
My footing is pretty solid from here. ;)

I carry a firearm because there are bad people out there that might want to harm my wife or myself, not just because I might be robbed one day. I believe that awareness of your surroundings, solid training and being properly prepared to do what is necessary are more important than what you wear or drive. If it ever happens that I'm caught unaware, they can have my watch or my truck. I certainly won't be chasing after them to retrieve it. That's what law enforcement and insurance are for. It's not worth my life, and I wouldn't mind a new truck anyways. ;)
 
Obviously there are are couple serious lapses and mental mistakes made by this specific OCer, the most important one would have been not to chase the criminal who just stole your gun. What you want to take from this as far as OC vs CC is up to you. What is easier to take, a gun that you can see or a gun you can't? Would the OCer even had been a target if he wasn't OCing? As far as weapons retention training again that is up to you but I believe anyone who choses to carry (OC or CC) should take retention training. OC definitely calls for it more than CC. You can carry however you like if your state allows but believing something like this could never happen and not taking all the training and precautions you can is just plain ignorance.
 
I know this subject is hotly contested by people on both sides of the discussion, but this is a news article about a man who had his gun snatched from his holster, and was shot to death with his own gun.

I wonder what kind of holster and what kind of retention device he had.

From the article.



http://www.timesdispatch.com/news/l...cle_5971f160-05d5-11e3-b11c-0019bb30f31a.html

I don't open carry except maybe when I'm hunting. This is one reason why.
Well, it is right up there with one of the dumbest things to do. I don't know how it is now but when I lived there something like this was a non-event. They used to knock each other off several times a week.
 
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